lherin

Well, here's the problem as I see it. When you want to compare 2 different players you need to pick the fight with the least amount of outside interference. This interference can come in many forms. For example:

-Rage winterchill is basically a tank and spank, except for the fact that you have to move out of death and decay. If you get unlucky you might have to move a lot and this is going to impact your dps.
-Anetheron's fight has you getting slept, having to switch targets (the way we do it, all the range dps get the infernals down), and if you get targetted by an incomming infernal you've got to run to the tanking spot.
-Kaz, some guilds require you to wear shadow resist, some don't. If you get an unlucky number of non-resisted debuffs you run out of mana.
-Azgalor. Silence, rain of fire, doom (obviously).
-Archimonde. I don't know about you, but I spent retarded amounts of time running around on this fight

-Naj'entus. Pushback, have to move to get the spine, frenquent pauses in dps for the shield.
-Supremus. Waaaay to much running around.
-Akama. Too short. I've done 1100dps on his fight and I've done 2245dps depending how lucky I get with crits.
-Teron. Pushback, getting ghosted.
-Bloodboil. Lots of movement (the way we do it anyway), to get in and out of the main group to pick up the debuffs, and if you get fel raged, well that just screws everything up.
-RoS. Not a standard fight, 3 completely different phases.
-Mother. Shadow resist gear, running around.
-Council. Multi-target, too dynamic, resist aura, moving out of AE spells.
-Illidan. Too many phases.

Now, out of all these fights, which one would you say 'best' represents a tank and spank with minimal interference? The reason I mention teron, is that there isn't much strategy involved. IE: All guilds do teron basically the same way, because there is only one way to execute the fight. The only thing that can really mess you up is getting picked to get ghosted. Other than that, you don't need to move(unless you need to rez someone, but that can happen in any fight), you just stand there and cast spells. Yes there's pushback, and there's no way to fit that into calculations, but every other fight also has multiple things that will interfere with your dps, and usually force you to have to move.

If I had to pick 2 fights that had the least amount of interference, I'd pick teron and rage winterchill. If you happen to get death and decay more than once, well that sucks, but it does show up in the wws at least. Anetheron is a bad choice for me because I'm required to switch targets frequently. Doing this automatically lowers your dps (at least it does mine), because you have to start your cycle over again at weird intervals.

What would you suggest?

 

Rosoo

Hands down lurker. Sit in the water with an ele shammy and shadow priest. You'll get no pushback except MAYBE once or twice, then compare the damage to target.

 

Kasi

Or the simplest way to do it is just go do bear in ZA. Easy enough to get a group for, and you should be able to get an optimal group (what you need is SP, Ele shaman, CoS lock) in a 10 man.

 

Carisana

This is the wws from our last teron with our moonkin's (madrox) most dps to date 1,728 and he's still missing some gear for his optimal setup.
http://wowwebstats.com/qw6mddebkr2be?s=7682-7876

 

lherin

Could you ask him what he was wearing at the time? I see that it's not what he is currently using. During the teron attempt he had the BT trinket equipped, not the eye of quag.

Thanks! A truly impressive feat. I wish we did our teron in 3 minutes 15 seconds

 

Carisana

I'll double check with him but should be
t6helm
kael neck
t6 shoulders
council cloak
t5 chest
bracers of nimble thought (RoS hasn't dropped theres yet)
t6 gloves
Badge Boomkin belt
t6 legs
RoS Boots
Rings hmmm Pretty sure Ancient Knowneldge and Revered Band of Eternity
Trinkets Icon and Exalted BT
weapon is S2 Staff been waiting on Illi staff , Idol hmm prolly the starfire one.

I'm like 95% sure thats what he had on but i'll double check with him

 

Vandiego

Starting with the Kaz fight. You need to learn to look at the individual and not the fight timers for Hyjal, obviously any boss that runs into Alliance or Horde camp NPC will start the timer. Therefore you need to look at your own.

My fight lasted 2:37
Your fight lasted 3:14 seconds.

Anetheron:

My fight was 3:00
Your fight was 3:30

I'm not listing any more parses as I am done raiding, and for all intensive purposes done with this game. Learn how to read a combat log and everything will become much clearer.

 

lomnoar

Care to elaborate on that a little ?

Sorry, I am just a nosy little Moonkin ;-)

 

nory

I can confirm that it does not stack in terms of armor reduction.

I'm alliance, and I had a feral druid and a horde pally help me.

Depending on WHO put up their FF, it will get that reduction ONLY. feralFF rank6 first cast, pally lost -610.


But If I put up my FF rank 4 1st, pally only lost -505.

 

Ailetha

The spreadsheet has been a big help so far. It has told me that I can put out 1170 DPS with my normal group composition and buffs. I have actually completed Karazhan, Gruul's, Magtheridon, and SSC minus Vashj as moonkin now (been through all content in-game as resto). You can armory me to give yourself an idea of my gear/sp dmg/etc.

I typed my group comp and whatnot in the spreadsheet; and it suggested Starfire only as my highest dps rotation. But the only fights that worked for was Magtheridon and Morogrim. Even Magtheridon, I had to spend a good 10-20% of the fight not DPSing so the DPS for that fight, although I did come in at #5, was not as good as I was expecting. I spammed that button like nobody's business.

All the other 25 man fights, I had low DPS between 650-850 and came in at #7-#10 on damage meters varyingly. Competing against DPS mains in nearly full t6 would explain some of it, I'm sure; but I was really expecting a little bit more out of myself than 650-850. Overall, I came in at #7 behind the warlocks and rogues.

I also ended most fights with half mana, even when i did NOT chug mana potions (I used destro's w/o an spriest nearly the entire time). So I *know* I must be doing something wrong or haven't tried something, because I shouldn't have so much mana available to me at the end of the fight. I am hit capped pretty much all the time.

For trash, I IS/MF/Wrath'd pretty much the whole time. This worked fairly well, as I was coming in from #1 to #4 on it. Still, was about 300-400 DPS behind spreadsheet but considering I didn't have anywhere near the same buffs for the trash as I did for the bosses, this is to be expected I think.

On Magtheridon, I spammed starfire only on Magtheridon, with IS/MF/Wrath on the trash & channelers, used Alc Stone + Ashtongue, chugged mana potions early, was a cube clicker, and still came in as #5 overall. Mana was 10% or less at the end so this worked out very nicely. This fight went really just as I expected. Got about 900 DPS overall.

On Hydross I just starfired since I didn't want to screw up the aggro resets. Ashtongue + Alc Stone but ended up not using mana pots like i thought i would. I chugged destro pots for lack of mana shortage. Came in #9 on this one.

On Lurker I just starfired since I thought that would be the best rotation but I was standing on one of the platforms and couldn't cast in the water during spout for some reason. Again, I thought I would use mana potions but didn't so I still used the same trinkets from Hydross, Ashtongue + Alc Stone. I chugged destro pots for lack of mana shortage. On damage, I came in at #10-12 or something atrocious.

On Karathress I did starfire only. I did use mana potions for this one but did abysmally, came in at #12 or something. I was using Ashtongue + Alc Stone.

On Leotheras I spammed starfire the first wipe, which didn't work very well, so I chugged destro pots and spammed wrath during non whirlwind phases. I did not DPS at all during whirlwind. I did not use dots for fear of pulling aggro. The trinkets for this fight were Starkiller's Bauble + Xiri's Gift this time, since I finally caught on that I wasn't using mana potions enough to warrant using an Alc Stone. I chugged destro pots for lack of mana shortage.

On Morogrim I had an spriest (the only fight I had an spriest for in Mag/SSC) so I put on Starkiller's Bauble + Ashtongue Talisman, chugged destro pots, did starfire only, and hit 1065 DPS, but still coming in at #7 behind a couple warlocks, a couple rogues, and an spriest or two.

Considering this is one of my first days as a raiding moonkin I did alright but now I have the somewhat confusing task of tweaking my DPS. These fights were all 4-8 minutes (approximately). Are any of these fights short enough/non-mana intensive enough for me to not use starfire only? Or should I really focus on putting DoTs up more often and still use Starfire? Am I just not transitioning from place to place/mob to mob/moving around quickly enough? The parses i looked at here, most everyone uses starfire only; but those parses are all/mostly BT/Hyjal and/or the moonkins are wearing t5 4pc bonus.

I am not wearing 4pc t5 and probably never will just because this is an offspec and my gear is good enough for everything I will be doing in this spec. I have decent gear though, so I am thinking there is no reason I can't do alot better (30%+)

However, we will be finishing SSC tomorrow with Vashj and more than likely go clear TK as well. Does anyone have any suggestions for rotations or suggestions to adjust? Should I be using IS/MF/Wrath rotation on most of these bosses, or IS/MF/SF? I think I overestimated the amount of mana I needed and/or am not using the correct/best rotation for the SSC bosses.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...ks/Ailetha.png

 

Vandiego

Ailetha,

You will probably want to break down your combat log to see how long its actually taking you to get from one starfire to the next. Most people average 3.15 to 3.2 seconds per cast from what I've seen due to simple reaction times. Just take your parse copy it to Notepad, save it as a *.txt file, then import it into Excel and make it space delimited. This will allow for proper separation of the columns. At that point just do a simple A-B= Cast time formula and you'll have your answer.

 

Vindaloo

Starfire only might be the best option mana wize, but my best option is to cast moonfire and starfire during the duration of the dot. Even if you would do Insect Swarm and starfire during the ticks you'll get more dps.
You're saying that you didn't have to gultch alot of pots or none at all, so mana is not a problem so the cost of your moonfire will add in your dps output. Have you tryed to customise the raotation in the sheet?; by setting moonfire to 1 and set starfire to 3,4 or 5 it might get you a higher dps than starfire only.

There are times when you can't cast starfire or wrath because you have to move. Sometimes you can't cast at all if you got a dot up you will be doing damage at that time. At Lurker for instance it might be better to cast wrath and just before you have to jump into the water you cast IS and MF so you still dps while you are submerged and waiting for the spout to pass.

On Leo you can still dot just be sure not to have a dot up when he ends ww or transions to and from demonform. In normal form you might wanna have a rotatin of IS and Wrath as he will go ww soon and you can get more damg in than with the slower SF (still wait for tank to get aggro ofc) during ww you can throw in an occational wrath but just don't get hit (better be save than sorry). On Demonform is the time to do your best rotation. If you get innerdemon MF/IS barkskin and wrath spam as it is nature vulnerable.

On Vashj I had no trouble being on elementals mostly moonfire + starfire, unless it's a tainted than I mf +wrath spam as I don't want it to despawn.(also save any dps trinkets cd for a tainted) Starfire only won't cut it imo as you'll misout on the dps provided by the dot. Your in luck we had to attune some new tryouts and I was at Vashj on sunday night, so I remembered =P If not on elementals you'll prolly be on striders and that is doting strider and helping on naga's untill the kiter has gotten enough aggro and you you can go full nuke (best rotation)

To sum it up imo you'll get better dps by MF/ an amount of SF's (guessing 3x-4x) as best rotaion atm, but at some encounters will need you to addjust that (as the examples above). At least you'll see you're dps go up from only spamming starfire =)

 

Vindaloo

Is there any chance of getting the Chaotic Skyfire Diamond updated. The requierments have changed to at least 2 blue gems instead of exactly 2 blue gems, what where they thinking or on at Blizz when they came up with that one.
Anyhoo thanks for the great work on the spreadsheet been very helpfull. Just got my t5 chest in an attunement run, the sheet helped me figure out that it was worth banking my t6 gloves and Robe of the Shadow Council untill I get more T6 pieces. The T5 4 piece set-bonus is just that imba gives me about 100 dps more =)

 

lherin

Wow. Way to foster communication by being condescending. Remind me not to attempt to ever have a conversation with you.

Thanks for the pointer anyway.

 

Benita

Quartz might help you here or any other casting bar addon. It shows the expected latency and when you can click early to start casting on default without stopcastmacros (since patch 2.2)

Warlocks are OP! No seriously, destro locks have at the moment about a 10-20% advantage to other dpsers. That doesnt mean of course you cant outskill them for 10-20%
Rogues and mages have the best odds of getting close to that with stacking haste. Spriest have the problem of itemization and are capped by that pretty much.

Dont you guys use CoS? With Malediction this means a 13% bonus of Starfire over Wrath. Add to that the NG procs and Starfire should outdps Wrath on anything debuffed. Enh shamans work in favour of Wrath, ele shamans against it again. If your tanks arent dieing, dont use IS unless you want to save mana. Usually trashpulls should not lead to any mana issues. Simple math behind it: IS deals about 1.2k total damage for you i would guess? Starfire takes twice the casting time and its average damage should be beyond 2.4k plus the effect of NG procs.
The same procs plus higher dps for a gcd make MF decent as a dot to apply. On trash or some boss fights you might be able to multidot till you get a NG proc. Clickcasting on MT targets helps for that and im guessing you are fairly familiar with setting it up if you come from resto raiding

Read above. Im pretty sure Wrath is just a waste of mana for you which is why you had to chug pots instead of destro pots, especially since you have some downtime as a cube clicker in p2.

Uncleansed Hydross is nature immune, hardly a choice then. MF/SF can be used but make sure you got no damage ticing during the transition.

Dive deeper, the ring around Lurker is misleading its los barrier.

Hurricane is a great help because of the debuff it applies, can be used every 2nd murloc wave if i remember correctly and is a dps increase. You shouldnt be able to outdps mages or warlocks in this fight as they are aoeing. Tank'n'Spank fight for rogues, which makes catching them hard aswell.

Sadly i could not inspect you on the armory as it crashed my browser, but in general the highest dps cycles are
MF/SF > SF > IS/MF/SF > IS/SF
This is also the order of most mana spent. Timing your mana pool is very important for all of this, the spreadsheet gives a good estimate for tanknspank, but not for running times or phase transitions like Vashj p1->p2 for example.
If you have 4t5 you need to keep up a dot 100%, 2+4t6 makes MF and SF better, Spellfire favours MF/SF and SF alot.
Apply dots when you have to run and can afford the mana, even dots that didnt run out yet.
A good example for this is Alar. You can run during the application of dots which means you can get closer to the next platform already. Or when you run to the adds dot up Alar on the passing. Aggro buildups also invite multi dotting, no reason not to cast anything because of threat caps.

 

Ailetha

Hey there Van Diego,

I had a chance to read only your tip prior to last night's raid so I didn't get to see all these great awesome comments/suggestions before last night.

Anyways, I went and looked at that and you're right; I was really slow; my DPS went up from a hundred to up to two hundred DPS on last night's bosses and 30 dps increase over the whole night (so i stayed the same for trash). I came in at #2 on my assignments instead of coming in at #7-8! And #2 by a very small margin to an spriest! I beat my rogue husband in damage! Aha, man that was awesome. I didn't have an spriest the whole entire night but I DID chug mana potions this time, I seemed to actually need them much more than previously.

I still had more mana than I wanted so I will DEFINITELY be trying these other suggestions on this weekend's raid. I haven't thought of some of this stuff at all. Like, for example, yes, CoS is up all the time on nearly all bosses and trash, so ya, there really is no reason for me not to be using arcane all the time.

Wow, thanks alot, I'm really impressed, hah. I had so much fun this weekend I can't wait for next weekend, hehe. Balance is ever so much fun. I haven't really learned anything new about druids in a long time, it seems like. It is so refreshing to learn something new AND be successful at it at the same time.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...ks/Ailetha.png

 

autrui

Thanks for the response. I've been thinking about it for a few days, and I'm going to try out impFF tonight in BT. I'm geared pretty far below my tanks (I'm in ZA gear and 2/5 T5, the tanks are all starting to get T6 set bonuses), so I'm not threat capped... Though I may be tonight!

Our performance on the first few bosses in BT has really been improving, but I think we'll find it plateau'd a bit tonight, so things should be about the same as they were this time last week; it should be a pretty good comparison.

The question I have now (and I suppose I should have asked this earlier, so I could use the response in the raid tonight), is, in your math (again, I'm not a great math person), does that imply any re-tooling of the tanks' gear? Or does that depend on whether they're hit capped?

Thanks!

 

Saraya

The math indeed assumes the tank is not hit capped.

In general tanks aren't hit capped so they shouldn't need to rearrange anything. Any physical DPS who is hit capped will have to rearrange their gear to gain benefit from it. Physical DPS could increase by 1-2% depending on being hit capped or regearing etc. Just mention it to your DPS that IFF gives 3% hit, and let them worry about the rest. And make sure to keep it up and not forget to reapply it.

 

autrui

Thanks. Due to horrible ISP-related issues, I was only in for Akama tonight! Tomorrow I should be able to get some good numbers.

 

Pstar

Um so I can't help but notice that the elunite imbued leggings are missing from the gear list...

Also we raid with a Retadin, which may be increasingly common... +3% crit from JotC?

 

Rosoo

Rosoo - WWS

There's our parse from earlier in the week. My armory should accurately reflect the gear I was using at the time. I upgraded the hyjal ring after the first 3 bosses, which is why you'll notice no procs of it for the first 3 fights. The only other buffs I could have used to up my DPS just a bit more would be a flask of blinding light (I was using Shat Supreme Power), and chain chugging destro pots for bloodlust and trinket ownage.

 

Dreydier

Spell Haste: Spell haste now reduces the global cooldown on spells, down to a minimum of 1 second. This change does not apply to melee and ranged abilities.

Thoughts on this? Would stacking some haste make us trash masters? I still don't see too much benefit for moonkin. (Other than T6 bonus + haste)

(And hi I'm Drey. Long time forum lurker.)

 

Efejel

If they're willing to reduce the GCD for haste, they may be willing to do so for Nature's Grace. This is a much more important question.

If the GCD is reduced by NG, then Wrath spam may become viable boss DPS (with insane mana per sec requirements) but still play poorly with haste.

If the GCD remains unaffected by NG, the status-quo is relatively unchanged other than opening the possibility of MORE MOONFAHRE SPAM.

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

Allanon

I doubt it because our set bonuses/ashtongue etc are starfire dependent...

 

Lambach

COS is the biggest reason(among many others) that in raids we will always have to use starfire.