Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet - Page 34

Spherus · 02/11/08, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Carisana

Next week, you guys should see your first 2k dps Boomkin. Madrox finally got his Zhardoom and had a nice Hyjal. He would have broken 2k on Rage last night but the mt died (don't ask not really sure lol). He still needs a Skull of Guldan so there is still even room for improvement over that.

But did pull off 1,942 on Anetheron
WWS Loading...

He still did mid 1800's on Rage even with the debacle and 1,830 on Kaz.

One thing about your WWS that I can't figure out - based on the gear in Madrox' armory he's sitting at 90 hit rating. Do you guys stack him with a Draenei ele shaman for hit?

With his gear and even with 4% from a Draenei ele shaman in his group I'd still expect about ~2% miss rate on WWS, but for the entire night Madrox is at a little over 1% - is he just that lucky? Or am I missing something?

Carisana · 02/11/08, 1:40 PM

Originally Posted by Spherus

One thing about your WWS that I can't figure out - based on the gear in Madrox' armory he's sitting at 90 hit rating. Do you guys stack him with a Draenei ele shaman for hit?

With his gear and even with 4% from a Draenei ele shaman in his group I'd still expect about ~2% miss rate on WWS, but for the entire night Madrox is at a little over 1% - is he just that lucky? Or am I missing something?

Just a little fun is there another kind of alliance shammy besides Draenei ?? :P

Yes he is in the main caster group, Ele Shammy, Him, Sp, Mage, Mage or Destro Lock.
With gear/talents group thats 15.13% hit. so for all intensive purpose .87% chance to miss + plus 1% every caster has.

I definately wouldn't call people who don't get resists due to innate 1% as lucky rather any time they do on a boss it's unlucky. But that may just be my view.

But if you look at the 3 "dps" fights that night, Rage he has 1resist 1.7% missrate right on par with what he should be, 0 on Anetheron ahead of the curve, then Kaz'rogal 3resists 5.7% way more then he should.

I just don't see how that is him being really lucky, plus looking at the full report the majority of the mobs are not bosses.

Efejel · 02/11/08, 3:51 PM

Originally Posted by Murph

Hi Efejel,

Firstly, many thanks for all your effort in producing and maintaining this spreadsheet - I have been finding it extremely useful in tuning my equipment and techniques to squeeze just that little bit extra damage out during long boss fights. For reference, I'm 56/0/5 spec, currently working on finishing Karazhan and starting Zul Aman.

I'm glad you find it useful!

One small request is for you to add the Windhawk set bonus automatically. I've patched this in myself by adding a new row to the Set Bonus Calcs sheet, and here's the formula for column D for your convenience:

=IF(SUM(IF(Bracer_Select="Windhawk Bracers";1;0);IF(Belt_Select="Windhawk Belt";1;0);IF(Chest_Select="Windhawk Hauberk";1;0))<3;FALSE();TRUE())

I'm then just adding it to the mp5 from gear by changing L7 on Gear Select to "=SUM(L8:L94)+IF(Wh3;8;0)", obviously naming the relevant cell in column C of the Set Bonus Calcs sheet as Wh3. I don't think it needs the ability to be manually selected, but I'm not entirely sure what your motivation for having that functionality is.

Thanks, I've added this. The manual set-bonus was for when the gear-select was incomplete, and mostly for sets that had somewhat more complicated interactions with the predicted DPS than 8 mp5. So, I've added the auto-recognition for this set, but it shouldn't need a manual dropdown (and won't be getting one).

I think I have also found some bugs in the new rows of the Gear Select sheet added for weapon gems in v0.80a. Cells N84:N86 have ";12)" at the end of the forumla, which seems to be erroneously adding 36 nature damage to my gear. Changing to ";0)" produces the result I expect. Less importantly (for me), cells U84:W86 seem to erroneously refer to the chest item, not the weapon. Other than that, it appears to be produce the same results for me as v0.72c or v0.80beta.

Thanks again, and keep up the good work! :-)

Hmm... does ";12;False())" also give you the results you expect? That should be the correct formula, but I may have pushed the release before adding the "False" even though it's on my local copy. As for the erroneous chest references: thanks for catching them.

Now, I have to drive like a bat-out-of-hell to make it to work on time, so expect your update in ~10 hours. Please report any other bugs you discover in the interim!

Ten · 02/11/08, 4:47 PM

Thunderheart Cord appears to have two sockets when it should only have one. Also, adding [Gloves of Tyri's Power] would be awesome.

After checking all the new gear that I could find, I've noticed some things. The new ESD meta is slightly better than the old CSD. The best gear combination was as follows:
Thunderheart Headguard, Spaulders of Devastation, Utopian Tunic of Elune, Thunderheart Bands, Botanist's Gloves of Growth, Thunderheart Cord, Breeches of Natural Agression, Thunderheart Footwraps, Shroud of the Highborne, Brooch of Nature's Mercy, Ring of Ancient Knowledge, Mana Attuned Band, The Skull of Gul'dan, Ashtongue Talisman of Equilibrium, Zhar'doom Greatstaff of the Devourer.
All sockets, save for the red ones in shoulders/legs were [Quick Dawnstone]. Red sockets previously mentioned (3 total) were filled with [Veiled Pyrestone]. Enchants used were standard except for spell strike on gloves, because hit rating is so lacking due to the haste. This allows for 2098 sustained dps in a raid.

All in all, this set of gear yields (raid buffed) 26.67% crit, 14.93% hit, 416 haste (26.5%), and 1276-1351 arcane damage (depending how lucky you think you'll be with crits, trinket buff could be up anywhere from 50%-100% of the time), and it also keeps the 4 piece t6 bonus. Starfires will be 2.37s/1.97s cast depending on NG, making a starfire only rotation optimal.

A note on trinkets:
Yes, I realize that using the BT trinket is proc-dependent. However, there are no trinkets that come close to its potential if you manage to stack enough haste (which I believe this certainly does). Even accounting for only 50% uptime, that's still 75 +dmg, more than anything else.

Obviously this does not take into account gcd reduction, so these figures could change dramatically depending on how that works out.

EDIT: Also, [Idol of the Raven Goddess] is getting changed to 20 crit rating.

EDIT2: I added the gloves manually. With another Veiled Pyrestone and a Quick Dawnstone in the sockets, these are a 20 dps upgrade over Botanist's, bringing max dps up to 2119.2.

EDIT3: Okay, I added [Robes of Ghostly Hatred] and [Pantaloons of Growing Strife], using Veiled Pyrestones in both for all red sockets, gaining more haste and hit. Also tried out the [Amulet of Flowing Life], but it was ~10 dps worse than the neck I listed. New max dps is 2161.3.
Stats with this gear are (unbuffed) 15.39% crit, 110 hit rating, 1313-1388 arcane dmg, 435 haste rating.

Murph · 02/12/08, 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by Efejel

Hmm... does ";12;False())" also give you the results you expect? That should be the correct formula, but I may have pushed the release before adding the "False" even though it's on my local copy. As for the erroneous chest references: thanks for catching them.

No, that gives an error for the cell. The other similar cells, eg M84, N75, end in ";0)". Here's the full formula I've currently got in N84:

=IF((VLOOKUP(Weap_Select;Weapons_Table;13;FALSE())+VLOOKUP(Weap_Select;Weapons_Table;14;FALSE())+VLOOKUP(Weap_Select;Weapons_Table;15;FALSE())>0);VLOOKUP($C84;Gem_Table;12;FALSE());0)

I'm fairly certain that's correct, but I could be missing something. I can't be 100% sure about Excel, as I only have OpenOffice easily available, but the IF function takes 3 parameters. The first is the test, the 2nd is the "VLOOKUP($C84...)", and the 3rd seems most appropriate to be 0 in this particular context.

Efejel · 02/12/08, 2:51 AM

Originally Posted by Murph

I'm fairly certain that's correct, but I could be missing something.

Nope, I was the one who was missing something. I was looking at the wrong place when putting in 12. Thanks for your patience!

tehdarkknight · 02/12/08, 8:05 PM

I have two questions really.
1. Does anyone have math to show spell damage versus spell haste for a moonkin?
2. Is Nature's Grace factored before or after haste? (Does starfire become a 2.5s cast with haste applied, or is haste applied, then the cast time reduced by 0.5s?)

Thanks!

Also Efejel, I'm sure you're working on it, but someone mentioned a few posts back that the Thunderheart Cord is appearing in your spreadsheet as having two sockets, while on the "Belts" and "Belts Sockets" sheets, it only has one socket.

Keep up the awesome work.

*Edit* Ignore question number two. Like a dumbass, I never noticed that haste and NG show up in spell tooltips. NG gets factored first, then spell haste applied.

Tarranus · 02/13/08, 11:37 AM

If Madrox breaks 2k it won't be because of anything but a lucky string of crits. Unless someone wants to update me atm some of highest "paper" dps we can attain is around 1600. I've had my string of fights at 1400, but like I said those will be outliers in an extremely straight line of itemization.

Gifted · 02/13/08, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by Tarranus

If Madrox breaks 2k it won't be because of anything but a lucky string of crits. Unless someone wants to update me atm some of highest "paper" dps we can attain is around 1600. I've had my string of fights at 1400, but like I said those will be outliers in an extremely straight line of itemization.

Though it may come as a shock to many people, spread sheets are not the end-all DPS markers for a certain class. I too play a Moonkin in a raiding guild and I have personally broken 2k DPS with less than optimal gear (you may armory me if you want). My crit rate was 50% according to WWS on Kazrogal with my overall DPS for the fight being 2020.

Edit: My point being, RNG is RNG, and there will be many times that your DPS will surpass that of a spread sheet and of course, times when you will be very below. Also, highest paper DPS is closer to 1720-1750.

Lambach · 02/13/08, 1:52 PM

Thats exactly what tarranus just said, the only way to get that high is a very lucky string of crits. As you say, 50% is fairly ridiculous and you just won the rng that time.

Efejel · 02/13/08, 3:46 PM

Originally Posted by Tarranus

If Madrox breaks 2k it won't be because of anything but a lucky string of crits. Unless someone wants to update me atm some of highest "paper" dps we can attain is around 1600. I've had my string of fights at 1400, but like I said those will be outliers in an extremely straight line of itemization.

Paper DPS excludes: trinkets, dest pots, and most importantly Heroism/Bloodlust. Notice the 2k DPS mark seems to be being tossed around for short fights, where Her/BL is a greater %-age of the fight time.

To be honest, I'm really excited that the "paper" top-end DPS can be exceeded. I know many people run significantly below the predicted results, so for people to run equally above (on occasion) makes sense to me.

But certainly finite sample size & random numbers/crit strings are going to play a major factor. I'm hoping to take this into account as I work towards 1.0 by using a spell priority system, the "rand()" function and macros, along with bootstrapping. Should give more interesting predictions about expected, along with probable min & max DPS for gearsets. Unfortunately, the amount of work involved is going to be pretty substantial, and there's some other features I've learned in Excel that I want to take advantage of first to make optimal gear selection easier.

Efejel · 02/13/08, 5:54 PM

Finally finished 0.80b. Special thanks to Ten & Murph.

Drbass · 02/13/08, 6:45 PM

Hey Efejel,

Just wondering if you've started looking at the effects of the new spirit and int changes coming patch 2.4. If you haven't Here is the latest calcs on it.

I don't know if it helps at all but they have a spreadsheet already put together so maybe you can copy and paste formulas(I have no idea how excel works so I hope it helps)

Here is a link to the Spreadsheet.

It sounds like innervate is going to be amazing after patch.

Tarranus · 02/14/08, 6:02 AM

Originally Posted by Gifted

Though it may come as a shock to many people, spread sheets are not the end-all DPS markers for a certain class. I too play a Moonkin in a raiding guild and I have personally broken 2k DPS with less than optimal gear (you may armory me if you want). My crit rate was 50% according to WWS on Kazrogal with my overall DPS for the fight being 2020.

Edit: My point being, RNG is RNG, and there will be many times that your DPS will surpass that of a spread sheet and of course, times when you will be very below. Also, highest paper DPS is closer to 1720-1750.

I think most of the people reading this forum know you're from a raiding guild ;-). But seriously, that's my main point. I've capped at 1600 dps by tend to settle around 1200 for sustained dmg fights. It's nice, but I don't like hearing moonkins throw out "2k dps!" like its a consistent thing.

also, ef any chance at putting in a slot for heroism?

Murph · 02/15/08, 2:50 AM

Hi Efejel,

I've been having a play with v0.80b, and it generally looks good so far. I've spotted one relatively minor bug, however - the Ember Skyfire Diamond intellect bonus is incorrectly added if you have a helm with no meta socket (eg Druidic Helmet of Second Sight) selected and the hidden GS_Meta (Gear.C13) is set to the ESD. There's obviously a simple workaround of setting GS_Meta to something other than the ESD, but it looks like the formula for Int_Mod (Talents.L14) needs a minor tweak. Here's what I've changed mine to, and it now appears to work correctly:

=(1+0.04*$Talents.F5)*(1+0.01*$Talents.F6)*(1+0.02*(AND(ESD_act;GS_Meta="Ember Skyfire Diamond";VLOOKUP(Helm_Select;Helms_Table;16;FALSE())>0)))

It's as before, but with "VLOOKUP(Helm_Select;Helms_Table;16;FALSE())>0" added to the AND(ESD_act;...) logic.

Efejel · 02/16/08, 2:43 AM

Thanks again Murph. I'll push an update after we have a pretty good idea of the full 2.4 loot tables, or in a couple of weeks--whichever comes first. I'll also add a warning to the first post.

Murph · 02/16/08, 9:54 AM

Found a very minor typo - Gems.A26 should be "(G) 5 int, 2 mp5 - Dazzling Seaspray Emerald" (typo in "Seaspray").

Bitolan · 02/17/08, 3:58 PM

I think it is interesting to note that in 2.4 it will be possible to have 4 piece T5 AND 4 piece T6 at the same time. So the question is, at what point do the improved stats of top end items outweigh the 4 piece T5 bonus?

tehdarkknight · 02/17/08, 6:56 PM

Originally Posted by Bitolan

I think it is interesting to note that in 2.4 it will be possible to have 4 piece T5 AND 4 piece T6 at the same time. So the question is, at what point do the improved stats of top end items outweigh the 4 piece T5 bonus?

I've played with 4t5 + 4t6 as much as possible, and so far, I'm only seeing it as capable of 1850 to 1900 paper dps. I'll play around more and report back if I find a way to make 4t5 > 4t6 + Sunwell Gear.

Smultie · 02/18/08, 2:54 AM

Somehow the new excel-file seems to get buggy as soon as I select Adornment of Stolen Souls (Necklace).
I know I should have a better one by now, but I don't

◊ Lorewanderer · 02/18/08, 8:21 AM

An interesting side effect of the spirit/mana regen changes: In my current gear (raid buffed), Intensity > Dreamstate for mana regen.

This is from 6 pieces of gear with spirit. (t5 Head/Chest/Legs/Shoulders, Windhawk belt/bracer).
~450 int, ~250 spi.

Dropping Dreamstate has interesting side effects: You can, if not taking iFF or FoN, cap out your personal damage skills and still take NS, or take iFF and FoN and keep 4/5 Subtlety, all at a net gain in mp5.

If they actually do maintain the massively buffed regen from spirit, this could be a very positive thing for us.

Saraya · 02/18/08, 9:40 AM

Psst, Lorewanderer

Your current stats:
453 int = 45 mp5 with 3/3 dreamstate
253 spi = 54mp5 with 3/3 intensity

raid buffed(imp motw, ds, ab, kings)
562 int = 56 mp5 with 3/3 dreamstate
353 spirit = 70mp5 with 3/3 intensity

I'd, uh, go ahead and make that switch today :B

Dabumchuk · 02/19/08, 6:53 AM

Hi guys, I've been reading through these threads and have a few questions hopefully you guys can help me out -

Im currently in a T5 guild with Vashj down, working to Kaelthas

I can pump out about 945 DPS with my current gear and full consumables (draenic elixir, adepts, superior wizard oil, and blackened basselisk

1. What is the best combo in terms of overall bonuses added - I can tweak my gems to accomidate the most effective combo (cost in gold not being an issue) adepts and draenic, adepts and mageblood, or spell damage flask

2. I notice a lot of Moonfire, SF, SF, SF rotations being quoted as top DPS - my current rotation is IS, Wrath, MF, SF, SF - my reasoning being, I like to have both dots running as much as possible and casting them allows time for movement and positioning during a raid, I squeeze the wrath in followed by the moonfire hoping for a quick crit to push the natures grace on my first star fire. can someone explain the benefit of the MF SF SF SF rotation, and discuss the pros an cons of using that wrath in there for the NG?

3. Assuming charges werent an issue, the 2% given from chain of the twilight owl is nice when the CD is up - when CD is down i swap to moross neck piece - up to which neckpiece will the 2% crit bonus not be worth using the chain and keeping the epic dps neck that only benefits me.

4. Any Moonkins in a Tier 6 guild - at end game, how do you compare to equally geared mages, rogues, MS warriors, Ele Shams, Ret Pallies

5. Blessings Deck and Stormz Deck trinkets, thoughts? I have both decks but have not decided if they are worth replacing quags eye with

6. In terms of meta gems, is chaotic skyfire diamond better than mystical skyfire diamond for DPS?

7. Superior Wizard Oil vs Brilliant Wizard oil, i count more overall stats on Brilliant? thoughts?

8. I notice a lot of times my DPS is less than the mages but I outdamage them in damage done overall, can someone explain why this happens?

I know these are a lot of questions and jabbering, but I hope you guys can provide suggestions

also if anyone has time and could armory and provide fastest gear upgrade suggestions, what piece to shoot for that would be a big upgrade. I am quite wealthy so regemming is not an issue

thank you for your time!

Allanon · 02/19/08, 7:43 AM

Hi, im in endgame raiding guild so i can maybe answer a few questions...
1. you are basically hit-capped so +dmg/+crit gems i think are basically interchangeable. i'd try and get ur +dmg up because it seems a bit low. i dont know why you have +heal, +sta gems and +mp5 gems, those dont help much imo.
2. mf-sf-sf-sf(sf-sf) rotation is the highest dps with my gear, but with yours it might not be. once you have t5/t6 set bonus starfire (and mf) is the best dps spell, not to mention with the addition of haste and trinket procs like ashtongue. since i can only maintain the rotation on bossfights with spriest i pretty much stick to starfire spam. another reason is curse of shadows, gcd relating to haste, sunfire on my weapon, etc. your rotation probably makes sense given your gear.
3. dont see any point in 2 moonkins (harder to get loot too!)
5. people in my guild are geared up and know how to dps so i'm usually top 5 on longer fights and maybe 7 or so on shorter ones. i can out-dps t6 geared mages, ele shammies, usually dps warrs, sometimes ret pallies, depends on fight really. locks that know how to play will always out-dps you, and rogues/hunters generally should too!
6. blessings deck is really good according to this SimulationCraft/Trinkets/Druid - Shadowpriest.com Wiki
7. i think chaotic meta owns!
and on your last point, pretty much everything is an upgrade for you. try to get 4x t5 imo. play in a guild with less druids maybe :-)

Dabumchuk · 02/19/08, 7:58 AM

I am currently in a raiding guild that has progressed through Vashj using 2 Moonkins in the 25 man with no problem, lately a lot of officers have been debating the utility of 2 moonkins vs another class, basically the other moonkin has senority so that player will get a raid spot over me, Im looking for points to defend the utility of a 2nd moonkin (we usually have 2 caster groups which benefit from our crit - grp1. moonkin, mage, mage, sp, ele sham --- grp 2, moonkin mage resto sham holy pally sp --- There are other DPS classes that I am on par with on dps and have senority over, any thoughts on what points to state in arguing 2nd moonkin utility over.

I realize different fights require different make up - so lets use general tier 5 boss fights

Moonkin adds - 5% crit to 5 casters

Ret Pally - adds Blessing of light - boosting heals on raid benefiting 1 pally healer, possibly a 2nd - is a total of 25% crit increase (5% to 5 people) more important than whatever the heal increase would be on one holy paladin, what about if the raid had 2

DPS warrior - not familiar with what his raid benefits are - how does he benefit the party he is in and is it more than 25% crit total

3rd Mage - on a general 25 man Boss I can see him outdpsing me by MAYBE about 150dps / sec at the most - is the increase in 5% more crit to 5 casters worth the difference in 150 DPS? will 5% on 5 casters add up to 150dps/sec or heals/sec

2nd Rogue - again on a general 25 man boss he may outdps me by 150 at the most - same as with mage

2nd Hunter - what benefit do they provide aside from a 2nd misdirect? at which point is a 2nd misdirect worth whatever dps increase 5% crit will provide

another point I would like to argue is I use chain of the twilight owl regularely and make them - I can use the charge 1 time for every 2 attempts, so i actually average 6% crit - plugging in those numbers? how would the utility of the 2nd moonkin apply.

Thank you for your time guys! im trying to remove the stigma that Moonkins have bad raid utility. Thank you for any suggestions!