Benita

2nd Moonkin - adds 6% crit with the changed Idol in 2.4

Ret Pally - JoC which means 3% crit for the whole raid (melees and casters alike), an extra blessing (its value decreases alot after 3rd though) and the possibility to keep up all Judgements from all Paladins (Light, Wisdom, Crusader)

DPS warrior - In 2.4 they will probably switch to 2H again meaning 4% physical damage. Also BS to their whole group which is roughly 25 dps for each one in their group.

3rd Mage - Question is 150 dps > 6% on 4 casters, you cant really calculate with 5 as one of them is you and already counted in for the 150dps difference calculation. If you assume 4 crit casters its roughly a 6% dmg increase for them. Even with "only" 1k dps this means 240 dps from your aura. Its very good, but becomes worse if hunters, spriests or resto shamans enter the group.

2nd Rogue - Same question here, who would you buff with the aura.

2nd Hunter - Depends on the hunter. Do you usually run with one SV specc hunter? Then you can assume this one will be BM which means a 2% dps increase to their group plus the extra MD.

JC neck means 1% more crit on the comparisons to others dps increase.


All of this is a question of group compositions. Your aura becomes alot weaker if you have to run with a spriest or if you dont bring enough crit casters. The extra Ret pally needs a melee dps group spot, as their personal dps drops way too low without WF. All other "raidbuffers" bring extra tank threat, which can lead to a serious dps increase if your casters are threat capped, if not it has 0 effect. The first Moonkin also brings 3% hit, which is a tank threat and melee dps increase.

There simply are no 100% answers as to why choose which class over another in raids, it always depends on the nature of the encounter and last but not least on the skill of the players. Some resto druid might always survive while as a moonkin kills himself regularly.

 

Lambach

Sorry mate, but a 2nd moonkin is really a wasted spot. And unless you are topping dmg meters, almost any other class would be better. I could list them all, but your 5% crit is probably going to either, a team of mixed casters and hunters, where it is completely wasted, or to the heal team, which, although not wasted, is probably an inefficient group make up. Unless you are straight beating a pure dps class in dps, the spot would be better with another class. Definatly a ret pally or alt specced shaman would add a lot to the raid.

 

Hidden

Sorry but your comparisons are just totally false, with the current Warrior Spreadsheet I calculated that for a Fury Warrior 1 ap equals around 0.3 DPS. If you can say that for the other classes as well it's more like 120 DPS for each than 25 DPS, a huge difference.

And you can also compare Battleshout to Moonkin Aura by rating they give. Moonkin Aura is 5% Crit*21 Rating/Crit, thus giving 105 rating. ~390 ap equals around 170 Strength (due to BoK) thus equals 170 rating.
170 > 105, and that doesn't even take into account that usually ap/spelldamage gives a higher benefit on most classes than crit/spellcrit. And if it's an Arms Warrior the debuff equals around 400 DPS (I think 10,000 physical DPS is a fair assumption).

Another thing I found lacking: 6% spellcrit in a caster group will never ever equal 6% more dps for them, for Shadowpriests 6% spellcrit is around 0,5-1% damage and even mages/warlocks using only crittable spells will only gain around 4% more damage.

 

Benita

Not everyone gets as much from 1 ap as a fury warrior, but you are right, its probably more than 25dps. Your rating comparisons are total bullshit though. For that rating you need 5 fury warriors, which means you can split the warriors effect into 5 parts. If you not, then you would have to take group composition into account, which you seem to critisize me for not doing so, even i already mentioned it. See where im getting at?

Please if you disregard my whole post with one sentence, at least have the decency to to take it all apart.

 

Hidden

I'm comparing a Moonkin in a pure caster group to a Warrior in a pure melee group, anything else is quite pointless anyway, in a non-caster group a pure DD will be better than a supporter like a Moonkin. But if you don't have an Offwarrior in your raid yet, as it seems because you didn't say "2nd Warrior", getting an Offwarrior will be the best solution even if you need to get a Rogue out of the melee group. There definitely are situations where a 2nd Moonkin may make sense, but they're quite limited as most raids don't have 2 pure caster groups.

About direct group compositions:
I don't know how your guild's groups look like, but I'm used to a (Enhancement) Shaman/Warrior/Rogue/Rogue/Feral or Rogue melee group and a Shadowpriest/(Restoration) Shaman/3 Caster caster group. Taking these "optimal" damage groups as a baseline, you can say that Battle Shout gives the melee group a lot more than Moonkin aura gives the caster group. So if there was the not so unusual scenario of having 24 raid members, group 3 as a pure melee dps group consisting of an Enhancement Shaman and 4 other melees that are no warriors, group 4 as a pure caster dps group consisting of a Shadow priest and 4 other casters that are no moonkins, and having group 5 filled with "the rest", maybe 2 hunters, a mage and some random healer. I'd definitely take the Warrior and put one of those Rogues into group 5 instead of taking a Moonkin and putting a Mage or Warlock into group 5.
I can't think of any other scenario where you can really compare a caster supporter and a melee supporter.

Of course that's all just theory. A top-notch Moonkin will be able to compete with an average Mage or Warlock and may be the better choice even if theorycraft says otherwise.

And sorry if you had the feeling that I disregard your whole post, but some of your numbers are just way off, the difference between 25 dps and 120 dps is huge and as far as I know, Rogues, Feral Druids and Enhancement Shamans don't scale that much worse than Warriors with AP, so at least 100 dps per melee is a good assumption.

 

Savaena

When using this spreadsheet for the first time, (excellent resource by-the-way, thanks!) I noticed that the data fields on the gear entry page blanked out with error symbols shown as #N/A when I selected for my necklace slot the Adornment of Stolen Souls. It seemed to be the only necklace selection that caused this to happen. What should I do to have this calculated correctly?

 

Dendrius

I was wondering if anyone has taken a look at the new badge gear on the PTR, specifically the balance items vs the destro lock items. All of the balance items are stacked with spirit at the cost of spell crit compared to the cloth items. I was wondering if these will be at all worth getting over the cloth items assuming that I use innervate on myself very little and am not currently planning to spec into meditation. The change to relate spirit and int may affect the viability of the items, but I don't know the math behind the new system in 2.4. Is anyone following this that can give me some info on it or will I have to wait until Efejel saves the day with an updated spreadsheet?

 

◊ Lorewanderer

As it currently stands on the PTR, Intensity is so much more powerful of a talent than dreamstate that it would be foolish not to get it.

The cost in itemization for crit is absurd, so chances are you'll get more out of the spirit on even one or two items in terms of longevity.

 

Hrank

Hopefully the question belongs here.
I tried searching but did not find a formulation for the search tool returning the answer I was looking for.

I have toyed a bit with the available spreadsheet, switched gear and enchants around. Depending on +spell damage, spell crit and spell haste rating, some spell rotations make more sense than others.
I did input my own spell rotations, trying to find the highest theoritical DPS output for my moonkin.
As I am standing now, I still need Insect Swarm in my rotation in order to reach my max potential. Just changing a few gear pieces makes me drop it, so I guess I'm not far from the threshold where it stops increasing DPS at all and the GCD will lower it.

My question is where are the various thesholds? It should be possible to define precisely at how much spell dmg/spell crit you have to switch from MF+IS+3xSF to MF+4xSF or to a Wrath-using rotation.

Thanks for either directing me to the correct thread where it is answered or for seing into this if it has never been asked.

 

Hidden

As it helps the tank's avoidance I wouldn't drop IS for bosses ever, for non-bosses it's hard to say precise numbers as it depends on very many facots like Stormstrike uptime, CoS uptime, paladin 3% crit judgement uptime, your buffs, your procs, and so on.

 

Caanrial

I'm in a min/max guild that's progressing through SSC & TK with Kara & Gruul on farm during off-times. But, the leaders want to focus on 25-man progression thus I'll probably never see my Imbued Elunite Pants from the ZA event. /cry I am the only Boomkin in the guild (which is also part of my gearing problem I s'pose). I just recently got my T5 shoulders which means I lost the T4 4-piece set bonus (not a big loss IMHO).

1. someone in this thread said that Intensity > Dreamstate but I have not seen any analysis of that statement. Has anyone done the math or is it situational? I have 3/3 Dreamstate now, and when I spec'd IFF and removed Intensity I go OOM way faster than before of course, but for raiding I usually have an spriest/shammy in my group so not a problem, only for soloing quests & pug runs it is...

2. take a look at my Armory, I think I have almost everything I can get at this level with one or two possibilities left. Now my question: it has been made (almost painfully) aware to me that my function in the guild is more utility and less uber-DPS. I *really* really want to raise my DPS but I'm not sure where to look or how to proceed. I have all of the talents in the right areas I think. I want to keep my trees for soloing quests since it's so hard to find groups for anything on my server as a Balance Druid. I'll be spending DKP on T5 as they drop but that will be a slow process. Any suggestions? Oh yeah, my spell rotation has been IFF - IS - SF - SF - SF - IS and repeat as I can while keeping IFF & IS up on the bosses. Last night on Lurker I managed a sustained 700dps (a new personal record!) Reading these posts, that seems woefully inadequate....help please!

 

• Adoriele

I'm (finally) in almost the same position as you, in a guild progressing through SSC and TK, and last night I hit 730 overall DPS (Using Recount, haven't looked at the WWS report yet) on Magtheridon as a cube clicker. My gear is a bit worse off than yours, having no T5 yet, and only last night got my second piece of badge gear, and I'll bet the discrepancy is in your cast rotation and mana regen. I'm using IS-MF-SFx3, refreshing IFF every third rotation or so, and casting trees when they're up. I also (again, finally) had a Spriest in my group, as well as an Ele shammy (though I was out of range of his aura and totems for most of the fight), and on all of our attempts used only one pot, and one Innervate (total, over about 6 attempts, neither of which ended up being necessary). Of course, I have both Intensity and Dreamstate, so if you're going OOM, which I have to assume you are, I'd move the 3 points in Celestial Focus to Intensity. Yes, they're nice for farming, but not necessary.

As for Intensity > Dreamstate, DS gives you, with your gear, 48.7 MP5 in combat. Intensity will give you 48.6 on live, and a bunch more when the PTR hits live. Is it better? Not right now, given your gear, but only barely. In 2.4, yes, and by a wide margin.

[edit] One thing the armory doesn't show, what consumables are you using. I tend to go with Basilisk, Wizard oil, Adept's, and Draenic Wisdom, but you may want to use Sporefish and Mana oil.

 

apsod

Playing with the spreadsheet, I've noticed changing the latency value can have drastic effects on expected dps, especially when you reach certain caps.

My question is:
I haven't noticed a change in the spreadsheet w/r to the latency box since 2.3 hit, yet 2.3 made a major change in the way latency affects players (with the partial 'buffering' of spells you can now do, without the /stopcasting macro, which was pretty flaky). My latency is usually around 250-350ms, but I 'buffer' my next starfire pretty much as soon as possible, so I'm wondering: how is this affecting latency exactly?

Should I still count mine as being ~0.3 in the spreadsheet and it somehow accounts for 2.3 changes (I doubt that from the results I'm getting) or should I assume a different value?

Does anyone have data on this and how much latency should one assume to have in these conditions?

Thanks!

 

tzenes

I noticed that the current Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet didn't include any on use or proc trinkets so I added them in:
Moonkin_DPS_-_v0.80c.xls - FileFront.com

 

Efejel

As I've said before, I'm not comfortable assigning static values to the trinkets. The values vary too greatly based on fights & playstyle. Thanks for the effort, but I intend to leave activated & proc trinkets largely un-weighted.

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

Dabumchuk

Hi guys, im trying to understand doctor damage

my spell hit line reads as follows 12.6sh/1% -------------- 19.2ish (12.5ish)
crit line is identicle
Spell Damage 10dmg 16.6

can anyone elaborate as to what the 19.2 represents and what the 12.5 represents?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On another note, Im currently at 1006 spell damage unbuffed

and sitting at about 14.5% spell hit with talents

in Moonkin im at about 27%ish to crit

at this point which of the 3 stats would be better to stack? I know crit also adds the benefit of natures grace
I can easily regem, I was capped to spell hit and by swapping it for spell damage Dr Damage said my DPS on star fire went up, can anyone explain?

 

Drbass

Does the new Alchemist stone make alchemy worth picking up? I pretty much have a spare profession I'm not using anyway.

The new caster alchemists stone on ptr gives +54 spell hit rating as well as 40% greater effects from mana and health pots.

After taking a look at sunwell loot, nearly all of the 6.5 loot has haste and crit on it but no spell hit. If I replace each of my (soon to have) T6 pieces with 6.5, I would lose ~72 hit rating. I would almost think that it would worth it if I could use this stone (+54 Hit) and the new badge ring (+28 hit) to completely make up the lack of hit on sunwell loot.

Also with the abundance of haste gear I very well may need that extra 40% mana from pots. But who knows with the new spirit changes.

Any thoughts?

 

Ten

With optimal Sunwell gear, it's possible to get up to roughly 435 haste rating. I don't have the sheet in front of me right now, but I vaguely recall that this also had a significant amount of spell hit, easily enough to be capped with an elemental shaman.

As far as mana consumption goes, as long as you don't try to continue using a MoonfireX/StarfireX rotation you shouldn't need to go insane with potions and regen. With haste gear, the difference in dps between using a constant MoonfireX/StarfireX rotation and a simple Starfire rotation is ~10 dps while the mana consumption is roughly doubled.

EDIT: Also, there's no reason to use the new alchemist's stone over the Skull of Gul'dan. If you're really going for Sunwell haste gear, the BT trinket will become the best trinket to use because spell haste increases its uptime.

 

Saraya

It's not like there are that many trinkets to be choosing from anyways.
Going by Spell hit = 1.2 damage, haste = 1 damage, here's a very very very rough ranking out of the trinkets to choose from:
Battlemaster's Audacity: 47 + mini last stand
Mag's Eye: 54 + 170 for 10 every resist ~= YMMV
Timbal's: 44 + 380 every 30 seconds(if using IF MF SFx3) ~= 62 damage
Icon: 43 + 155 for 20 every 120 ~= 68 damage
Hex Shrunken Head: 53 + 211 for 20 every 120 ~= 88 damage
Skull of Guldan : 25 hit + 55 damage + 175 haste for 20 every 120 = 114 damage

Sorcerer's Alch stone: 54 hit ~= 64 damage + the 40% thing, 40 mp5 if chain chugging pots
If you're running out of mana before the fight ends, 40 mp5 alone beats the other trinkets, so you have to look at your own situation. (Chances are this isn't happening of course)

With the new spirit change, you should be getting around 30 mp5 i5sr raid buffed, along with basically free super mana potion for every innervate you use. If you're still running out of mana, this thing beats the other trinkets. If you're not, it's about as good as the icon.

Obviously you should never "replace" guldan's with it, because even if guldan is not #1, it's definitely #2(so you'd want to replace #3).

It is a nice trinket, but it's only worth using on bosses, and you most likely won't need to chain chug pots like before with the new spirit changes.

One idea worth mulling over is dropping points in dreamstate and balance of power to get more points in subtlety/IFF. This makes the chain chugging of pots much more likely due to lack of dreamstate and raises your max potential since you can gear for more hit, but you can't really gear for reduced threat(outside of the odd enchant). I'm crossing my fingers for the stones to get improved a little before hitting live though.

 

◊ Lorewanderer

For point 1, that's based on the 2.4 spirit changes. On live servers you'll still want Dreamstate. (edit:Well, actually, I was wrong. If you've got gear with a reasonable amount of spirit on it, DS<Intensity on live too. Here's for going off of old calculations.) If the spirit regen changes go live as they are, that's when dreamstate will become the inferior choice. Naturally you'll be able to get both with some sacrifices but Intensity should suffice if you have access to a shadow priest.

(e) Using the spreadsheet on the spirit mechanics thread and using my personal stats, I'd get 121 mp5 from 3/3 Intensity and 56 mp5 from 3/3 Dreamstate, with 450 int/253 spi unbuffed. If you want the answer as it pertains to you, go get the spreadsheet and plug in your own numbers. Given that my numbers for int/spi are reasonably close to what many raiding moonkin will have, I think it is safe enough to say that it will usually be the case.


For the second, that sounds a bit low, but anything further is difficult to tell without knowing what your group setup is like (and the armory isn't being nice to me tonight). Post a WWS and we might be able to provide some feedback. The trees are quite useful in raids if you time them well, so don't discount them as a viable raid talent.

 

Tarranus

I'm thinking it's time to create a new moonkin theory crafting post. This post should be dedicated to Efejel's work on the spreadsheet. Anyone else agree?

 

Efejel

I'm not opposed to either scenario. If theorycrafting continues in here, it will keep this post bumped & visible to Moonkin discovering the forum for the first time.

OTOH, if someone is interested in writing up a guide and/or starting a theorycrafting post, I'm sure we can easily cross-link, and questions about the spreadsheet as well as "heads-up" type warnings from people finding errors in the spreadsheet will be more visible.

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

Caanrial

Here is a WWS from a recent Lurker kill. Pretty typical raid composition, I luckily usually get the spriest & a shammy. Also, try the Armory again and see if you can give me a few gear suggestions. As I said earlier I think I've enchanted & gemmed appropriately, I just think that my DPS should be higher than it is. I normally can not out-dps our well-geared rogue & hunter, but sometimes there is an anomaly...this particular WWS Lurker run includes NO trash, only the boss, from fishing him out to the kill. Last night on Tidewalker I was 2nd on the damage meters, right under our uber-rogue! :-)

 

Cdin

Wow! Maybe it's just the way my guild does Lurker but I have never seen a Melee DPS in the top 5 DPS let alone number one on Lurker. We've had great rogues that top the charts on other fights but Lurker is very Ranged Friendly.

Anyway to your questions. Here are couple things that I noticed.
1. It looks like you rezed someone. Depending on how close they were to you that can reduce your DPS significantly.

2. Gems: A few of your choices look a little strange to me. In your belt upgrade the red socket to a Runed Living Ruby. In the yellow socket you have an ok heroic gem, but a Vieled Nobal Topaz or even a Potent Nobal Topaz would be better. In your Boots you have a Heroic gem with Spell pen. I would replace it with a Runed Living Ruby also, but a Vieled Noble Topaz would be fine also. Spell Pen is useless in pve, so you are wasting stats there.

3. Are you being limited by mana at all in the fight? It didn't sound like it from your comments but if you are I would switch your three points in Celestial Focus to Intensity. Heck I would probably do that anyway since Celestial Focus has very little value in PvE.

4. Enchants: They look good for the most part. I prefer the 20 spell damage to gloves instead of 15 spell hit but it is an understandable choice at your gear level. I know you know this already but get your aldor rep up for the better shoulder enchant.

5. Maybe I am reading the report wrong but where was curse of shadows?

 

Naboo9

I've been working w/Efejel's uberkin spreadsheet for a few months now (btw, kudos and much thanks, Ef). A while back I noticed I was having an issue with my dps supposedly increasing when selecting crit over hit. For example, selecting Adornment of Stolen Souls over Brooch of Unquenchable Fury provided me with a dps increase, even though it decreased my hit by 15 points under the cap (I'm sitting at 151). With another boomkin's help we figured it was because I had the Draenei racial & shaman totems selected. Once this was remedied, whenever I selected any gem/weapon/armor in the spreadsheet that decreased my hit, it displayed a corresponding dps decrease, as it should.

I am now experiencing the same problem again, without having the Draenei racial/shaman totems selected. No matter what I seem to change in the spreadsheet I get a dps increase by losing hit (i.e. putting myself below the hit cap) and gaining crit. I've tried it in the new version of the sheet and the previous version. I'm stumped. Any ideas, folks?