Actually, it's not only based on the 2.4 spirit changes. Since the increase of Intensity from {5%, 10%, 15%} to {10%, 20%, 30%} in ?patch 2.2?, it has provided more mana regeneration than Dreamstate for likely values of int and spi. It may be feasible now for some druids to have an int and spi make Dreamstate more valuable, though not by much. In 2.4 it will not be possible to reverse them with any gear set even close to realistic; the difference will be vast.

Intensity gives more than DS now, yes, but not so much more that DS is unnecessary. It's currently better to have both. On 2.4, though, it may be possible to drop DS, as it will be unnecessary, allowing more points in Subtlety without dropping IFF, BoP, or FoN, ala Druid Talents.

I'm going to play with it a bit on the PTR, right now it depends on the fight whether I need the extra mana or not (depends on if I have a Spriest, too). I can down Hydross without any extra regen (and no Spriest), but Lurker takes my innervate and about 3 pots to pull off correctly.

Rawr Beta 12 posted!

DOWNLOAD: https://www.codeplex.com/Release/Pro...eleaseId=11411

Beta 12:
* Rawr now includes models for Moonkins, Mages, and Warlocks!
* Many more stats are tracked about items, for use in new and upcoming models.
* Fixed a bug in the options for Cat, so that it updates the label for the value of expose weakness.
* Icons now pull from the more reliable wowarmory.com instead of the old flakey armory.worldofwarcraft.com.
* You can now safely run multiple copies of Rawr at the same time by duplicating Rawr's folder. Each running copy of Rawr must be in its own folder, with its own cache xml files.
* Fixed some bugs that would cause Rawr to crash.
* The Splash screen has finally been redone! It now has a background image, and an icon for each model that is loaded, along with the version #s of each model, Rawr's UI, and Base.
* Tooltips on the calculations should really last a long time now, for everyone, I hope.
* The ItemCache should save faster, load faster, and take up alot less space, per item.
* There's a menu item now, to reload the character data from the Armory for the current character.
* The Projectile and Projectile Bag slots will now be hidden if they don't apply to the current model.
* Improved how Rawr handles requests for data from the Armory.
* When unable to access the Armory will now handle it much more gracefully. If you see blank icons, anywhere, that's probably the case.
* There's now an options dialog. More will come in there, but for now, there's customizable proxy settings. If you were previously unable to use Rawr due to being behind a proxy that was different from your IE settings, or required different authentication, give this a try.

Under set bonuses, the T5 4pc bonus doesn't even work......makes comparing most moonkin gear and set choices competely inaccurate.

Appreciate all the hard work though, kudos for making this program!

I may have found a more accurate way to formulate my question about spell rotations versus spell damage levels.
There are milestones in a character's progression, so I might as well use them to articulate the thought. Just occured to me to formulate as follows, but I'll use the spreadsheet to crunch it too. However I'm interested in opinions as well as in raw numbers.

Spell rotation at gear milestones:

What should a moonkin's max damage rotation be at:

Dungeon 3 (Moonglade) set level? (can include a limited number of heroic or lower Karazhan gear)

Tier 4 level (or badge and reputation/heroic equivalents)

Tier 5 level (or non-tier equivalents)

Tier 6 level (with and without Sunwell Plateau gear)

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate the reasons why a specific spell is dropped in a rotation in favor of another. If there are alternatives that are about equally good, please indicate both.

IS, Sfx4 on raid bosses
MF, IS, Wx7 on trash
Add MF to boss rotation if an SPriest & Curse of Shadows are present or it's a short boss fight
Use Wrath when Stormstrike is up unless there's an elemental shaman to use up charges

MF, IS, Sfx3/4 on bosses
MF, IS, Wx7 on trash
Drop MF from boss rotations on mana-intensive fights even at this gear level
Mana permitting, use Wrath instead of Starfire before refreshing DoTs if you're at the end of a crit-free cycle
So there's actually 2 cycles: Mf, IS, Sfx3 W (if all spells prior the wrath are non-crits, incl the last spell of the previous cycle) and Mf, IS, Sfx4 for the more-frequent times when you see at least one crit

Shouldn't be using non-tier equiv at this level, but if you are see T4 recommendations
Mf, Sfx2, IS, Sfx3 or similar should be ideal for maintaining debuff for 4-pc.
Anyone with first-hand experience at this gear level is welcome to dispute this

Pre-Sunwell: Mf, SfxN
Incl-Sunwell: Sf,Sf,Sf,Sf,Sf,Sf,Sf,why didn't i just roll an elemental shaman, Sf,Sf,Sf,Sf, etc.
With enough spell-haste Starfire spam should become our best DPS & most mana intensive cycle. Someone who avoids spell-haste entirely could try a Wrath-spam rotation instead, but will likely either end up frustrated by their self-limited selection of gear or by bumping up against the GCD all the damn time if they do acquire any haste.

Rawr Beta 12.1 posted!

DOWNLOAD: https://www.codeplex.com/Release/Pro...eleaseId=11483

Beta 12.1:
- Fixed a bug that would cause "Input string not in correct format" errors when Rawr was run on copies of Windows for a region where a period is not the decimal separator (ie european countries where it would be "1,23" instead of "1.23").
- For proxies that filter by user-agent, the user-agent used by Rawr is now customizable in the proxy options.
- Config settings (like recent files) are now user specific.
- Fix for occasionally not loading icons immediately even though a network connection is available. Also fixed an error when there was no network connection.
- Rawr.Mage: Added new AB-AM cycle and new AB cycles with Frostbolt/Scorch filler, added a fix for the item budget comparison, added scrolling on the options screen, added Drums of Battle stacking,
- Rawr.Warlock: Fixed issue when altering spell cycle

Can anyone give a rough approximation of a %-wise breakdown of dps to each spell (by rotation, I suppose, but at least for an MF/IS/3xSF rotation?) Something like 15% MF, 10% IS, 75% SF, or w/e it might work out to be? Thanks.

When sunwell comes out haste will reduce the GCD too. Why would you drop MF if it's faster casting too? Wrath still won't get full benefit from Nature's Grace so it's out. On the other hand Moonfire doesn't use up NG charges so your next starfire still gets it, (although a double crit would still be wasted.)

ok have been reading this board for a while and one thing that i have been looking for but was never really brought up in a detailed discussion is how does haste compare with spell damage and crit. By detail i mean the full mathematic formulation behind your proof and not an intuitive answer that someone came up with...while experience still takes into consideration, but i would still like to have an objective answer.

I am not going to go into detail what my gear choice will be but the following should answer all those questions.

Armory - The World of Warcraft Armory (i do have cowl of illidari high lord just using 4 pcs for the set bonus atm the rest are my raiding gear)

Ideal gear before 2.4- chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta (i am basically shooting for 202+hit to drop 2 points in balance power and another 2 into intensity)

Ideal gear after 2.4 - chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta (never mind the +hit for this gear set since i can always change my gems around for that)

There are several things i would like to find out.

1st Is there really a spell damage threshold for moonkin? Meaning is there a diminishing return for getting more spell damage after a certain point. ( I have heard from someone in my guild who trolls the ej board mention that he had seen a post possibly on the warlock forum that the spell damage diminishing return point is around high 1300-1400 spell damage unbuffed. )

2nd This is similar to the first question but is there a number for spell crit.

3rd. If you know the answer to the first two question i believe you should know the convertion between 1 sp = crit = haste. My biggest problem is the conversion between crit and haste, if anyone has a math model on excel or mathlab pretty much any mathematically tool and want to show me i would be glad to look at those.


I did however figure out the spell haste limitation or rather the diminishing point by myself which I believe to be something unrealistic for any moonkin to achieve with the current gear.

formula from wowwiki. Casting speed - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
New Casting Time = Base Casting Time / (1 + (Spell Haste Rating/1570))

basically to get your starfire to break the one second gcd, by break i mean to have more haste to be able to cast your starfire under 1s gcd rule. You would need 1375 spell haste + bloodlust + 80 haste from drum. (1.3 = bloodlust)

2.5s/((1+(80+1375)/1574)*1.3) = 1s <---cast time. 1374+ spell haste with bloodlust and drum will break the diminishing return point for haste, which obviously is unreachable.

Sorry for the off topic question. im just wondering if there are any shadow resist gear for moonkins to gear up in preparation for Black Temple and Mount Hyjal? seems like every class has some gear in that direction except for moonkins. already trying to maximise dps is not easy and now we have to gear up in SR...

Great work on the spreadsheet. I love it!

I could be wrong, I haven't done any math on this. But even with the GCD reduction, Moonfire is still mostly a DOT that scales poorly with crit and haste, the two main stats I'm seeing stacked on the Sunwell gear. And while, sure, the +dmg is higher, it's haste where we're seeing HUGE increases.

I'm pretty sure fights will still be mobile & interesting enough that there will be both time & reason for application of Moonfire at least part of the time.

This topic has got me thinking if I can actually put a haste value on crit, since a crit essentially gives me 295 spell haste for Starfire. I'm only interested in a value in relation to Starfire. I'm basically trying to figure out at what amount of haste I should have when I should swap most of my current gear out for haste pieces. Is there some way to calculate how much haste crit is worth only when casting starfire? What is the point when I'm ONLY casting Starfire that haste value from items will provide a bigger benefit than the crit on those item slots instead? My own calculations say that 1 crit = 2.95 haste rating.

Without doing any actual maths at all, and assuming your 295 haste number is correct (ie, I'm not double checking), the problem with your calculations is that (from your own assumptions):

1% crit = 2.95 haste rating (and not 1crit = 2.95 haste rating).

This means that:
22.066 crit = 2.95 haste
1 crit = 0.134 haste

Which means that 1 crit is roughly equilavent to 0.134 haste rating, on top of the other normal benefits crit has (this of course assumes you have NG, which all moonkins should have ^^).

What I did was 295 * (1 crit percent / 100) = 2.95 rating. I guess if you multiply your non-haste gear crit percent by 2.95 you'd get your pseudo-haste rating. As long as your haste gear has more rating than that, you should wear haste gear instead. I'm not sure if these assumptions are well-founded. The only thing I don't take into account is bonus crit damage.

Greetings. Long time reader, first (or second) time posting.

I apologize if this has been covered, but I have a quick question regarding Dreamstate vs. 2.3 Intensity vs. 2.4 Intensity.

I'm new at being Moonkin. I was feral before and has been farming Illidan for a while now. Currently my guild wants to try me out as Moonkin since they see the benefit in iFF and want to help out our casters more.

I'm currently 47/0/14 spec (1 FoN, 3/3 iFF, 3/3 Intensity, 1/5 Subtlety). For the first two weeks, my DPS was really crappy due to lack of gear so this spec suits me fine. Now, with 4t6, Skull of Gul'dan, Zhar'doom, etc, I'm really pushing the threat cap on many fights. So I figure that I should sacrifice some mana regen talents for Subtlety since I generally do fine on mana.

Between Intensity and Dream State, as of 2.3, if I were to drop 3 points completely, which one should a ~t6 Moonkin druid drop? How about 2.4? Or should I sacrifice personal DPS talents instead of mana regen talents?

Once again, sorry if this has been answered before.

Not sure if this has already been mentioned. But I grabbed the (what I think to be) latest version: Moonkin_DPS_-_v0.80b.xls and had a slight problem with DPS calculations in the 'Gear Select' tab. There would be a formula errors in the row beneath the Necklace section the "hit-nat dmg" columns when I chose "Adornment of Stolen Souls".

Changing the formula's in each of these cells from

[top]IF(P64,VLOOKUP($C63,Neck_Socks_Table,5),0)

to

IF(P64,VLOOKUP($C63,Neck_Socks_Table,5,FALSE),0)

fixed it up nicely. Hope that helps.

Also, how are those Moonkin guides coming along. I can't wait to check them out. Perhaps someone can also convert the Gear List on the WoW Druid Forums into a better format (colors/loot links/where item drops/mixed leather and cloth gear to compare them better instead of just cloth to cloth/leather to leather) in the Moonkin guide as well. I'm so needy.

Responding to the Crit vs. Haste discussion a couple posts up:

First, NG is worth 314 Haste, not 295. NG reduces Starfire's cast time by 20%. 20*15.7 = 314. Luckily, since NG is factored before any haste effects are applied, it can be reduced to simply haste. I.E. No matter how much haste you have, NG is always worth 314 more on the casts it affects.

Second, your rough calculations aren't quite accurate. Both Haste and Crit have diminishing returns, I.E. 1% +crit is worth 1% DPS iff you start out with zero crit chance. If you start out with 99% crit, +1% crit is only worth .503% DPS. Similarly with haste.

Here's a more accurate way of comparing Haste and Crit:

Assume
,
with being your expected (average) damage, and being your average cast time.

The percentage benefit of 1 Rating on DPS is given by

where is your current rating of either Haste or Crit, whichever you're trying to find. The point where they're equal is then when


We'll find the benefit of Crit first, since it has two parts: Damage and speed.




is the base average damage of the spell, which is 647 for Starfire after adding in Moonfury, is the damage coefficient, 1.2 for Starfire with Wrath of Cenarius, is your +damage from gear, is the Crit rating coefficient, 1%/22.06 = .0004533, and is your Crit rating (divide your total Crit% by 22.06 to get your effective Crit rating).

The affect of Crit on Expected damage is then

which, as expected, depends on your current Crit rating.


where is the Haste Rating conversion 1%/15.7 = .0006369, and is your haste. Note that this does not include the 314 effective haste from Nature's Grace, that's taken care of in the top of the fraction.

The effect of Crit on average cast time is then

which again implies that the more Crit you have, the less percentage benefit you'll get from adding more.

Finally, this gives us that


Now for Haste:


We already have the formula for time in terms of haste, so


Since it's more convenient, we'll break this down after reciprocating it, since that's what we're doing for the DPS calculation anyway.

which looks strikingly like the affect of Crit on expected damage. Which makes sense because they perform the same function.

For simplicity, we'll replace all instances of with , since you're more likely to know what your overall Crit percentage is than what that equates to in rating. Therefore, the affect of Haste on DPS equals the affect of Crit on DPS when


Since both Haste and Crit have diminishing returns, you get more benefit from haste when your current haste is LESS than the formula. I.E. if you have high crit and low haste, it's better to add haste. For example, say you have 25% crit on your character sheet, +4% for Focused Starlight on Starfire. You would need less than 751 Haste rating for 1 haste to provide more benefit than 1 Crit. If you increase it to 33% character sheet and add 4pcT6, for 42% Crit total on Starfire, you need less than 926 Haste rating.

Originally posted in the "Intellect -> Spirit" thread but after no responses figured it may have been misconstrued as off-topic for some reason, so moving it here. Apologies in advance if this is not cool, I re-read the board rules just in case. :-)

Hi there,

I read these boards for some months now, but it is my first actual post. I was feral until about 2 weeks ago, now I am balance and I had some issues with threat, whatever you may offer me as guidance, I would truly appreciate. As for gear, I got all the badge set, the timed legs drop, the staff from ZA (I intend to get the dagger and use with the haste off hand from badges), trinkets are icon and eye. Just to give a general idea of gear, I got 1171 Soell Dmg, 22.65% crit (in moonkin), almost the hit cap (I might switch the eye for scryer trinket for bosses, until 2.4 patch where I believe I will be hit capped). I got 2 points in subtlely and the subtlely enchant on the cloak.

The fight where I did experience the threat isseus were in SSC, Hydross. A very perfect try I pulled aggro from Hydross, on the wrong side, forcing adds respawn, yeah, noobish, I know. But first time being a ranged dps here. :X So with salvation, and -10% threat reduction (talents + enchant), should I be experiencing threat issues?? I was about third in the dps spot on recap, I have fallen to about 7-9 for hitting less afraid from stealing aggro after I wiped the raid. So, is it a moonkin issue or a tank issue? If any, how can I fix it?? (gettin 22% threat reduction + salvation). Btw, I was using the MF and SFx4-5 for my dps rotation, if I anyone can help me how to fix it, I would highly appreciate.

In the end, the less threat you produce means the more damage you can do. Hydross is a bad fight for tank threat since they are mostly wearing resist gear which do not provide very good threat generating stats. Clearly, you should watch your aggro on this fight especially. Are you finding threat issues with other fights?

In any case, what I've seen boomkins do is take points out of Celestial Focus (hurts soloing a tiny bit but not that useful for raid bosses) and in your case put the rest into Sublety. It's worth it. Thats really all you can do as far as threat. The rest is up to the tank or one common thing my guild has started doing is dropping tranquil air totem in the heavy caster group for the first portion of the fight (or all of it depending), before switching over to wrath of air. This may help you and other dps do more damage if they are also threat capped.

i am not sure if i follow what you did here, the top of the fraction calculate the average cast time of starfire base on your crit. Why would you need to divide that by the 1+Kh*H