Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet - Page 39

Efejel · 03/20/08, 2:07 PM

Alchemist Stone should be better than Quag's Eye even when you're not potting, the addt'l static damage is far less situational than an uncontrollable haste proc.

Alleine/Alaterial · 03/23/08, 1:30 PM

Also, haste is really more of a tier 6 level stat.

It's far easier to itemize for in BT/Hyjal, and should be stacked only when you have an appropriate base level of hit, damage and crit.
Haste can be completely counterproductive if you have mana issues - if you can only do 30,000 mana's worth of DPS before going OOM during an 8 minute fight, then haste will only help you to do the same DPS faster and will not contribute to your overall DPS values.

Traditionally, haste is stacked along side tier 6 - which is the only way that tier 6 > tier 5.

Amiran · 03/24/08, 4:41 PM

I just attempted to use the spreadsheet but it refuses to return any numbers for DPS just #NA. An y ideas as to what could be the problem?

♦ Lorewanderer · 03/24/08, 5:59 PM

Originally Posted by Amiran

I just attempted to use the spreadsheet but it refuses to return any numbers for DPS just #NA. An y ideas as to what could be the problem?

Adornment of Stolen Souls as the neck, probably. There's a fix posted a page or two back.

Zene · 03/24/08, 6:27 PM

Just curious of peoples thoughts, regarding starfire overtaking wrath. Other than "at higher spell damage" starfire is better I have not seen any specific numbers. If there are, please point me there. Thanks.

Using the spreadsheet and messing with specific "other manual entry" fields I was trying to see when it would be best to switch rotations of Wrath over to Starfire.

This assumes hit capped, crits shown below are base crit, +5% in moonkin form, and differing spell damages. All other buffs have been removed except the ones listed (other than various mp5 buffs to make sure that OOM is not reached for 3 minutes, I also tried increasing duration length to 5 and 10 but as long as OOM was not reached results did not vary)

** With no Idol **
15% base crit,  750 spell dmg =  IS, MF, Wrathx7
15% base crit, 1000 spell dmg =  IS, MF, Wrathx7
15% base crit, 1250 spell dmg =  MF, Wrathx8
15% base crit, 1500 spell dmg =  MF, Wrathx8

(really 19.9%)
20% base crit,  750 spell dmg  = IS, MF, Wrathx7
20% base crit, 1000 spell dmg  = MF, Wrathx8
20% base crit, 1250 spell dmg  = MF, Wrathx8
20% base crit, 1500 spell dmg  = MF, Wrathx8

(I noticed the same trend with 25% crit as well)


** With Starfury Idol **
15% base crit,  750 spell dmg =  IS, MF, Wrathx7
15% base crit, 1000 spell dmg =  IS, MF, Wrathx7
15% base crit, 1250 spell dmg =  MF, Wrathx8
15% base crit, 1500 spell dmg =  MF, Wrathx8

20% base crit,  750 spell dmg  = IS, MF, Wrathx7
20% base crit, 1000 spell dmg  = MF, Wrathx8
20% base crit, 1250 spell dmg  = MF, Wrathx8
20% base crit, 1500 spell dmg  = MF, Wrathx8

Just for fun
20% base crit, 2000 spell dmg = MF, Wrathx8

I did not try with the Wrath idol as it would only lean in favor of more Wrath spam.

It is only when you add Curse of Shadows that Starfire seems to perform better. With CoS up I notice the ideal rotation to use is IS, MF, SFx3. (this applies with 15% base crit and 500 spell dmg and I tested it up to 2000 spell dmg and 20% base crit 500 spell dmg up to 1435 spell dmg)

Once you get 20% base crit and 1436 spell damage the better rotation changes to MF, SFx3, W

So I am just curious here, but I thought with enough spell damage Starfire would at some point overtake Wrath spam. I can't seem to generate these results with the spreadsheet. This of course assumes you do not run out of mana.

Also, I realize the spreadsheet is not perfect but can anyone account for why the results may not have been different if you did expect them to differ?

P.S. This doesn't account for haste which is much more readily available in later stages of the game. For example, 20% crit, 1250 spell damage needs about 39 spell haste to have MF, SFx3, W outperform IS, MF, SFx3 with the Starfire Idol.

EDIT: Formatting

Benita · 03/24/08, 6:57 PM

Short Answer: T5, T6, CoS

Even a combination of these can be applied and make SF alot more dps on top of being better dpm.

Saraya · 03/24/08, 11:06 PM

For pure theorycrafting, your results are probably right. Aside from the reasons in Benita's post, you also need to factor in latency when you cast spells. It's tough for me to chain cast because I'm overseas, but I imagine there's some significant lag when raiding even if you're in Irvine. So if you factor in adding an extra 0.1 second per spell due to lag/latency, Starfire becomes a 3.1 cast where 2 wraths would be 3.2. I probably get an average of 0.2 thanks to variations in latency. This favors starfire over wrath.

In addition, even with a shadowpriest, I'm seriously skeptical that it'd be possible to last a full fight doing wrath spam. It takes almost 40% more mana compared to starfire.

When results differ from what you expect, it's because the spreadsheet operates on averages where the game rolls the dice. Hit merely lowers negative variation and crit raises positive variation. So if you're not hit capped and you have a lot of crit, there will be some fights where you absolutely cream everyone because all of your spells magically hit and you got an exorbitant amount of crits. Of course, there will be other fights where you get resisted up the wazoo and no crits register. The spreadsheet just tells you on average where you'll be. And it's good to be better, on average.

Acearan · 03/25/08, 2:34 AM

Originally Posted by Efejel

Yeah, I'm not. I'll definitely consider looking at that before I get to a version I'm willing to call 1.x. It's going to be a very very slight boost to DPS of the two Starfire + Moonfire cycles.

ok so i jsut went moonkin (lvl 40) on my alt and ovbiously ive seen that wrath, does less amg than starfire,but it is faster. im assuming for lvling pourposes that wrath is beter to use because of the ignore cast inturupt talents. am i assuming correctly? also for raiding/instances porposes whats the best cast sequence to use. also if you have any advice, id be glad to hear it.

Benita · 03/25/08, 7:09 AM

Originally Posted by Acearan

ok so i jsut went moonkin (lvl 40) on my alt and ovbiously ive seen that wrath, does less amg than starfire,but it is faster. im assuming for lvling pourposes that wrath is beter to use because of the ignore cast inturupt talents. am i assuming correctly? also for raiding/instances porposes whats the best cast sequence to use. also if you have any advice, id be glad to hear it.

Yes, if a mob hits you, put up MF and IS if its off and the mob is living for the dots duration, then either pop barkskin and SF it down or wrath spam. You can also use entangling roots and move 3y. Then SF at least once, wrath breaks the roots faster.

As for sequences, 60% of this thread is about that with a summary or repeated answer every 4 pages or so. How are the moonkin guide threads coming along?

Grifter730 · 03/25/08, 9:05 AM

Originally Posted by Zene

Just curious of peoples thoughts, regarding starfire overtaking wrath. Other than "at higher spell damage" starfire is better I have not seen any specific numbers. If there are, please point me there. Thanks.

I believe the reasoning that people use SF instead is due to mana reasons -- as in, you generally will go oom chain-casting Wrath. That's why Wrath spam is recommended for trash instead of bosses.

Benita · 03/25/08, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Grifter730

I believe the reasoning that people use SF instead is due to mana reasons -- as in, you generally will go oom chain-casting Wrath. That's why Wrath spam is recommended for trash instead of bosses.

No, its really about curses, tier bonuses and NG. Im pretty sure otherwise some would wrath spam with a spriest chain using pots on short fights. But they are not.

Artemas · 03/25/08, 1:18 PM

With the un-nerf of Idol of the Unseen Moon, I'm still a bit torn between that idol and Emerald Queen for pure raid DPS.

Leitwolf · 03/25/08, 1:41 PM

For me, beeing a Moonkin Twinker on another Server and gearing for T5 Content, the Question was "what idol should i use for maximum DPS". After some reading, googling and thinking i found someone who posted a Macro for Idolswitching and casting.

#showtooltip Starfire
/cast Starfire
/equip Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess

#showtooltip Wrath
/cast Wrath
/equip Idol of the Avenger

So these Macros are nice, but not really useful with "Idol of the Unseen Moon", because the effect of the idol doesnt apply on instant casts like Moonfire. So i thought i could equip it before

. The typical castrotation is: IS, MF and then 3 to 4 SF. So why not bind the "Idol of the Unseen Moon" to IS, then the following Moonfire does get the potential procc of this very nice Idol (that by the way again @ Patch 2.4 has no internal cooldown) and then bind the "Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess" to Starfire, so you get both, the Spelldamageprocc of Unseen Moon AND the permanent Damage of the Moongoddess Idol

.

I have tested that Combination (in my case with the Avenger Idol and Wrath Spam, because i have had no luck with the Moongoddess dropping ...) and it works very well and i thougt i could share it with you, cause it´s simple and effective

.

btw: sorry for my bad english

Share your thought´s please

, because maybe i´m terribly wrong xD

F4nt0m · 03/25/08, 2:17 PM

Originally Posted by Leitwolf

For me, beeing a Moonkin Twinker on another Server and gearing for T5 Content, the Question was "what idol should i use for maximum DPS". After some reading, googling and thinking i found someone who posted a Macro for Idolswitching and casting.

#showtooltip Starfire
/cast Starfire
/equip Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess

#showtooltip Wrath
/cast Wrath
/equip Idol of the Avenger

So these Macros are nice, but not really useful with "Idol of the Unseen Moon", because the effect of the idol doesnt apply on instant casts like Moonfire. So i thought i could equip it before

. The typical castrotation is: IS, MF and then 3 to 4 SF. So why not bind the "Idol of the Unseen Moon" to IS, then the following Moonfire does get the potential procc of this very nice Idol (that by the way again @ Patch 2.4 has no internal cooldown) and then bind the "Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess" to Starfire, so you get both, the Spelldamageprocc of Unseen Moon AND the permanent Damage of the Moongoddess Idol

.

I have tested that Combination (in my case with the Avenger Idol and Wrath Spam, because i have had no luck with the Moongoddess dropping ...) and it works very well and i thougt i could share it with you, cause it´s simple and effective

.

btw: sorry for my bad english

Share your thought´s please

, because maybe i´m terribly wrong xD

Actually if you macro Unseen Moon to equip after moonfire in a rotation, it will still proc because of lag.
#showtooltip
/cast Moonfire(Rank 12)
/equip Idol of the Unseen Moon

Is what I'm talking about. that kind of macro will work, but be careful because if you can't cast moonfire when you hit hte button you'll waste time.

Sciencegeek · 03/25/08, 3:25 PM

Originally Posted by F4nt0m

Actually if you macro Unseen Moon to equip after moonfire in a rotation, it will still proc because of lag.
#showtooltip
/cast Moonfire(Rank 12)
/equip Idol of the Unseen Moon

Is what I'm talking about. that kind of macro will work, but be careful because if you can't cast moonfire when you hit hte button you'll waste time.

I use the above macro along with:

#showtooltip Starfire
/cast Starfire
/equip [casting] Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess

#showtooltip Wrath
/cast Wrath
/equip [casting] Idol of the Avenger

These macros work fine. Sometimes I get a little carried away and waste a GCD, but that rarely happens.

Leitwolf · 03/25/08, 3:41 PM

Originally Posted by F4nt0m

Actually if you macro Unseen Moon to equip after moonfire in a rotation, it will still proc because of lag.

Not happened for me while i am testing. The thing is, there is NO other relic that is useful while casting IS, so i make sure it´ll work for the aftercoming MF and that´s what this does for me

.

Actually i´m using this macro as an example:

#showtooltip Sternenfeuer
/use 13
/use 14
/run UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/cast Sternenfeuer
/equip [noequipped:Elfenbeingötze der Mondgöttin] Elfenbeingötze der Mondgöttin

Works fine and i automatically use my two on use trinkets and don´t waste any trinket CD. *note*: German spellnames of course

.

@Sciencegeek: do you know what the "/equip [casting]" is for ? please explain it to me, if you know what it does

.

Vict0r · 03/25/08, 4:47 PM

Hey =)
First post for me, i try to write an understable english

At the moment i try to equip my Druid for MoonkinDPS and there are some questions for me.
(26%crit on the charscreen in Moonkin, 1100 spelldmg, 15,7% hit on gear, 30 haste)

1. 16% hit for sure, but better 12%hit +4% skilled (more crit/haste/spelldmg on the gear) or 16% gear and 2 points subtility?
2. From what percentage critvalue is it better to put points into haste/spelldmg? And how much haste/crit make sense?
3. Quagmirran's Eye or Xi'ri's Gift? Icon of the Silver Crescent is the second trinket, maybe Hex Shrunken Head.

Maybe somebody has a answer on these questions.

Moginheden · 03/25/08, 7:16 PM

Originally Posted by Sciencegeek

I use the above macro along with:

#showtooltip Starfire
/cast Starfire
/equip [casting] Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess

#showtooltip Wrath
/cast Wrath
/equip [casting] Idol of the Avenger

These macros work fine. Sometimes I get a little carried away and waste a GCD, but that rarely happens.

While these macros do all work, they waste time due to a bug that was in the game in 2.3. Every time you swap weapons you reset the global cooldown. While this doesn't sound like a problem since your casting anyway it actually is. You cast the spell at time 0.0, the server OKs the item swap at time 0.1, then resets the GCD at time 0.2, meaning you can't cast again till time 1.7 rather than at time 1.5 like you could have if you hadn't swapped the idols.

Haste will make this even worse. If your wrath/moonfire normal takes 1.3 seconds due to haste with an idol swap it now takes 1.7 seconds. That's a lot of DPS time lost.

I have not tested this in 2.4 does anyone know if the GCD reset on idol swapping has been fixed yet or is it still a bad idea to swap idols on anything other than starfire?

Tyjet · 03/26/08, 9:05 AM

Some confirmations about these idol swaps mid-cast would be very useful.
Personally, I'm planning to use the starfire idol for 3-4 casts, swap to the moonfire idol during the last cast, then cast moonfire at the end of it, and swap back to the starfire idol at the start of the first cast.

1. 16% hit for sure, but better 12%hit +4% skilled (more crit/haste/spelldmg on the gear) or 16% gear and 2 points subtility?

balance of power is an awesome talent. You can get a lot more +damage if you can lose 4% hit.

3. Quagmirran's Eye or Xi'ri's Gift? Icon of the Silver Crescent is the second trinket, maybe Hex Shrunken Head.

Always +damage from trinkets, Quagmirran's eye is better than the Karathress trinket. Use hex shrunken head with icon of silver crescent if you can.

Sciencegeek · 03/26/08, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Leitwolf

@Sciencegeek: do you know what the "/equip [casting]" is for ? please explain it to me, if you know what it does

.

From what I was told it was to prevent idol swaps if you weren't casting and thus preventing a wasted GCD. In reality it doesn't seem to work and I haven't removed it from my macros yet.

As far as the Moonfire idol proc'ing - still works with the previously mentioned macro's in 2.4

In regards to the 1.7s vs 1.5s cast with idol swaps - my lag is bad enough (500+ms) that it doesn't seem to affect me - unless I get "happy" and try to cast before the previous GCD has passed.

Now for a question - besides theorycrafting - does anyone have any in-game data (Dr. Boom or whatever) to reliably say whether only using the starfire idol is better DPS-wise than idol swapping? I don't have access to the game at the moment to test, but I'd be curious to see if anyone has tested this yet.

Edited for spelling.

Moginheden · 03/26/08, 2:27 PM

I haven't tested it in 2.4 but in 2.2, (when the unseen moon idol was the same as it is now) I got higher damage with unseen moon than ivory moongoddess on Dr. Boom, but it was close enough it might have been lack of data.

From what I understand of the theorycraft in 2.4, (can someone please confirm this?):
-If you have 3 or more crit happy casters in your group the Idol of the Raven Goddess is the best one to use.
-If you have less than 3 idol of the unseen moon is the single best idol, (barley better than ivory moongoddess even in starfire heavy rotations.)
-If you can get your rotations right starfire (ivory moongoddess), starfire (ivory moongoddess), starfire (ivory moongoddess), starfire (unseen moon), moonfire (no swap) is the best DPS you can do but I don't do this as I screw up and equip the wrong idol too much in practice.

As for lag making the idol swap time not matter, get quartz. Even with a 500 ping you should be able to cast as if you had a 50 or so ping by casting the next spell when the bar hits red rather than waiting for the bar to finish.

xtyrulx · 03/27/08, 12:42 PM

So, Ive read through about as much of this thread as I can bear in an attempt to sort out an answer to my question. I haven't found one. So at the risk of appearing very foolish, and possibly being ridiculed:

I do not quite understand some of the spell rotations listed in the spreadsheet.

In practice, my current rotation only yields about 740 dps. Based on what the sheet has calculated for me, I should be able to push out roughly 1100 dps (yes, give or take... etc) with the MFx2,SFx15 rotation... obviously I need to make an adjustment.

Here is my problem... I honestly don't know what that rotation (mfx2,sfx15) implies. Does it mean I cast moonfire twice then proceed to spam starfire 15 times?

(You see, I told you this was silly question. But honest to God, I don't get it.)

• Adoriele · 03/27/08, 1:11 PM

Originally Posted by xtyrulx

So, Ive read through about as much of this thread as I can bear in an attempt to sort out an answer to my question. I haven't found one. So at the risk of appearing very foolish, and possibly being ridiculed:

I do not quite understand some of the spell rotations listed in the spreadsheet.

In practice, my current rotation only yields about 740 dps. Based on what the sheet has calculated for me, I should be able to push out roughly 1100 dps (yes, give or take... etc) with the MFx2,SFx15 rotation... obviously I need to make an adjustment.

Here is my problem... I honestly don't know what that rotation (mfx2,sfx15) implies. Does it mean I cast moonfire twice then proceed to spam starfire 15 times?

(You see, I told you this was silly question. But honest to God, I don't get it.)

No, it's more like MF, SFx7/8, MF, SFx8/7

I honestly can't see how that's useful without a large amount of haste gear (i.e. somewhere around 1000). What's your current rotation? 740 DPS is pretty low for the quality of gear you have. Are you holding back because of threat issues?

Soultrigger · 03/27/08, 1:21 PM

From my experience:

The rotations do make more or less dps, based on heavy movement required fights, to use your dots might be handy. When you got 4 t5 or so, mf and sf only might yelds the best results (if your lock uses CoS), 4 t6 and way too much haste, only SF might be better. (like sf always casting at 2.5 secs/2.0 on NG procs).

About the DPS, dont worry about that too much, even with less DPS, you can do great in the DMG DONE field, which I mean is, at my guild gear level, all casters are doing more "DPS", but I am whinning in the "DMG DONE", last boss we did, I was ranked first. (but it was lurker, no threat issues at all, rofl). But the spreadsheet says I should do around 1.3k dps, I was doing about 1k-1.1k dps most of the time. (the spreadsheets seems to care about your latency, but I believe she doesn´t count for "human slow clicks" if I can say so, neither it seems to count for "movement", besides a rebirth which increases some delay, but it won´t count some extra healing or extra time spent on the rebirth, maybe we could add a boss option in the spreadsheet and set some standard average lost time to movement, so the outcome in the dps is more accurate, either way, it is a guideline, you can do under or above it).

My considerations over DPS: go talk to DR BOOM outside Area 52 and see how much sustained DPS you can do there, fix any issues with your rotations. Then while raiding and doing bosses, try to find out the best moments to nuke all you can (in many ways, you can´t win x main classes if they know what they are doing, their trees are just better, but you can always count in less knowledge in their part and less effort in the fight too, so you can top the charts if you try hard somewhat).

About the rotation you asked, if it was something like MFx2, SFx11 it means you do MFx1 SFx5, MFx1, SFx6. But of course, I do believe the spreadsheet gives more points to it because of T6 2 pieces. But if not, it is just misinterpretation on my part. But MFx1, SFx4 might be more effective or MF somewhat wates a bit of your dps, so it might be better to go SFx5, it depends on testing.

xtyrulx · 03/27/08, 1:27 PM

Currently, Im running MF, SFx4 and occasionally dropping the treants.

My average lat is 200ms (I even left the 400ms calculation on the spreadsheet, just in case). I also use quartz to try and make up for what latency issues I may have. I've never have to hold back, thankfully. I rarely have to pot during a fight either, and aside from the occasional brez Im generally casting non stop.I can understand not pushing a lot of dps on some fights that require a lot of movement, like supremus for example. However, fights that dont require me to run around (gorefiend, ros, etc) I just cant push the numbers and its becoming really frustrating for me.

I did completely forget about Dr Boom though... I will have to pay him a visit tonight and see what happens.