evilchicken

ok I have been boomkin for almost 4 months and I still truly dont know what I am supposed to do about gear weather I supposed first go hit cap or spell dmg or crit. When I raided I was told by another oomkin that was fairly good and knew what he was doing, about the rotation of spells I should use. for the raid bosses or other main bosses I should so Moonfire, insect swarm, starfire x3 and repeat and if it is a quicker fight I should go moonfire, insect swarm, wrath x4 and repeat. Is there a better way to make my boomkin put out more dmg I am only putting out 600 dps. I want to maximise my dmg so I can be up with the rest of the guild and do my fair share of the dpsing for the raid bosses. and by the way I am in tk and ssc so you know what I will be dpsing.

I would post my armory so you know what gear I am running but the armory is not working for my druid. I recently transfered and it hasnt put my new name in yet. I will post my old character the only thing that is different is that he now has the t4 chest piece and a new dps ring. I will post the new stats of him and also the old armory.

armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory

his new stats:

* Base Stats
* Strength: 81
* Agility: 65
* Stamina: 478
* Intellect: 447
* Spirit: 232
* Armor: 2358

* Spell
* Bonus Damage:910
* Bonus Healing: 958
* Hit Rating: 125
* Crit Chance: 17.54%
* Penetration: 0
* Mana Regen: 258

Hopefully you guys could help me out

 

eMagdAeH

Hit is most important of all. 151 is your hit cap, but you'll be fine as long as you're at 15.5% hit (I believe that is 146 hit). That is the easiest and most effective way to get the most out of your damage. Spell damage up to about 1200 or so is your next goal. Crit. kind of comes by default.

 

jetz0r

Im in a Sunwell guild, and usually raid as resto or feral, but sometimes i dabble in moonkin. I was wondering why i don't see many people use the trinket from exalted BT.

Ashtongue Talisman of Equilibrium
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
Classes: Druid
Requires Ashtongue Deathsworn - Exalted
Equip: Mangle has a 40% chance to grant 140 Strength for 8 sec, Starfire has a 25% chance to grant up to 150 spell damage for 8 sec, and Rejuvenation has a 25% chance to grant up to 210 healing for 8 sec.

I use a moonfire x 1, starfire x 4 rotation and the proc from this trinket is up a significant amount of the time. 150 spelldamage is great for a trinket slot, what do you guys think?

 

• frmorrison

The BT trinket is good, but not quite as good as some of the other trinkets, like DMC:C, Icon or Shrunken Head.

150 damage is nice, however only a 25% chance is a little low to count on.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Soultrigger

Sorry to come and ask so noobish question, but I would some opinions over this:

Considering I am hit capped, and I am using Amani Divining Staff.

Which of these 2 weapons could be an upgrade, and what would be the difference?

Wub's Cursed Hexblade
Scryer's Blade of Focus

I just want to know if the new badge one is plain better, or if I should try a few more ZA runs for the other. You can look my armory if you want to see. All I will change is one of the rings for Fused Nethergon Band to get hit capped. If I get the Wub, probably I will change 2 veileds for hast/spelldmg ones. All gems will be upgraded to epic versions too. If the armory is on S1 gear, lol (I am a new moonkin, feral up to last month), just think I got the full leather badge set, the ZA legs, kz chest ring, za eagle boss mp5/dmg ring. Trinkets are icon and quag eye, but I will probably exchange eye for the sorcerer stone or the new dot trinket from MT heroic.

I will be thankful with any opinions on this mattter, mostly will all the math you guys are so good at.

Thanks
Soultarius

PS: What is DMC:C?

 

Celdhyrean

Dark Moon Card : Crusade

 

◊ Pudgeball

I'm in my gear right now with 153 haste rating. I have a number of upgrades to make in my opinion if I keep raiding more and more as a furry bird.

 

nakedduck

[quote=Adoriele;691701]
All that said, as Ef has pointed out earlier in the thread, there comes a point where MF is just not enough bang for the buck anymore. Either SF's scaling has outstripped it, or you have enough haste gear that the extra NG proc chance isn't worth it, or something similar. And at that point dropping MF isn't a bad thing. It's not generally possible until you're into T6 gear, especially given 4T5, but the point does exist. And then it's just SF spam all the way home, because when one spell's the best, it's the best.
QUOTE]

One thing to note, with the current gear available, I'm not too convinced dropping MF out of your rotation will increase your dps. With 0 haste, and the 2pc t6 bonus, MF is in T6 gear is a 2k+ dps spell (damage done/1.5 second "cast")

As far as the ashtongue trinket goes, like ambiorix mentioned a few pages back, the spell damage benifit varies on how many casts you can get within a 8 second window.

155 * (1- (.75^(number of starfires cast within 8 seconds)))

 

• Adoriele

Umm... Yeah. That might be true if you could spam MF and not overwrite the DoT, which you can't, or if you could spam it and not go OOM faster than a Pally using LoH, which you can't. For all practical uses, MF has a 12/15s 'cast' time over which you figure DPS. Yes, it's an amazing use of a GCD, but that's it. And when your SF does enough damage, or casts fast enough, that it's no longer useful to cast Moonfire, you drop it.

Let's take Pudge's WWS as an example, he's sufficiently geared for this test. His MF hits for 750 or so, crits for 1500 with a 33% crit rate, and does 450 damage per tick for (with 2T6) 5 ticks. His average damage with a Moonfire is approx 3250, with a cast time of 1.5 he matches about your assumption with 2167 'DPS'. Starfire, on the other hand, hits for about 3k, crits for about 6k, 40% crit, for an average damage per cast of 4200. Cast time on it is (assuming no haste) about 2.8s, for a DPS of 1500 spamming Starfire alone. Let's give him a cast rotation of MF, SFx5. He gets 3250 + 4x4200 over 15s (because overwriting your last MF tick is a Bad Thing), giving him (Oh, this is beautiful, double check this for yourself) 1337 DPS. Adding Moonfire causes his DPS to drop by 163, a more-than-trivial amount.

[edit] Bah, bad math on my part. He's getting 1617 DPS with MF, SFx5 (I calculated with only 4 SFs). Hold on while I work out some more of the math.

 

◊ Pudgeball

I'm holding! I don't mind using me as a punching bag to figure some of this stuff out. I'm 'new' to Moonkin, but I've used the spreadsheet pretty extensively. My rotation on boss fights has basically been "MF/IS/iFF (when its not up)/Starfire until Moonfire drops" as well as throwing trees in after the DoT's are applied. When I get a heroism I pop drums, then Icon + Destruction potion and spam Starfire while keeping only IS and iFF up, but I don't bother to Moonfire usually. Sometimes I'll get greedy and let IS drop during Heroism >_>. I'm brought to the raid with the purpose of keeping IS and iFF up, so I try to keep them up as much as possible while maximizing DPS. Since I'm using the .9% crit Idol (If I'm DPSing in a raid I usually will be with 2 destro locks and 1 elem sham) and not the Moonfire one, I usually don't care if Moonfire drops off here and there.

Also one thing to add to your calculations, 153 haste will make the Moonfire cast time I believe 1.37 (That is what my Wrath is)

 

• Adoriele

Heheh, no punching bagness intended, you just happened to be the closest well-geared Moonkin at the time. I'm still in end-T4, early-T5 gear, so my numbers would be useless for this. Anyway, with your stats right now, MF isn't a bad thing. You get a 117 DPS increase from it, which is, again, more-than-trivial.

As for the calculations, though, I popped numbers into a sheet. SF scales better with +damage than Moonfire does, (yay Wrath of Cenarius), but the extra tick of Moonfire from 2T6 counteracts this. I added 1000 +damage gear, and MF, SFx5 was still better DPS than just SF spam, so that effectively kills the idea that you can remove MF from your rotation because of Damage gear (unless you drop 2T6, which would be pretty difficult to do, I imagine). Haste, on the other hand, only really benefits Starfire. Yes, your GCD drops, but you're limited by the number of Starfires you can fit into a Moonfire DoT anyway. In order to get 6 in one DoT, you need to cast on average in 2.5 seconds. With Pudge's 40% crit, he still needs 12% haste to hit that, which translates to 188 Haste Rating. With about 125 haste rating, SF spam increases to 1620 DPS, which outstrips MF, SFx5.

For MF, SFx6, you need 415 haste to beat it with Starfire spam, where they both equal about 1900 DPS. Then 482 Haste brings MF, SFx7, which again boosts your DPS significantly. My assumption is that they will keep bouncing back and forth in a similar fashion until you hit the haste cap (if there even is one). Remember, though, that this is assuming you gain haste and nothing else, which is an unlikely scenario. In most (if not all) cases, SF scales better than MF, so these points will be reached sooner.

 

◊ Pudgeball

Once I get a Sunwell level weapon (Brutallus Mace / Felmyst Staff etc) and a good real trinket instead of this mediocre haste one, that'll help my DPS a fair bit. Also when the Crimson Spinels are on sale for 15 badges each, I'm going to start regemming certain pieces of gear I know I may not replace too soon. Hopefully I can raid primarily as moonkin instead of feral so I can get some of the yummy Sunwell stuff sooner rather than later. I'll post any nice WWS's I get from the bosses in there just so people can use them for comparisons sake. I know there's not a ton of Moonkin floating around out there like there is every other DPS class.

Thanks for the calculations though, kind of confirmed what it seemed like. Im not a big fan of having to squeeze in IS, but hey, -2% hit against the tanks is nice for things like Brutallus.

 

Spherus

Since people seem to like to see them I'll throw in a couple WWS reports. My gear is close to as good as it will be pre-Sunwell, although I'm definitely missing a couple items that I'll get when they drop (Illidan cowl, Illidari council cloak), one or two that will be immediately replaced in Sunwell (RoS boots still won't drop) and then 1 or 2 that are just rare (Skull :X).

Anyway - our WWS reports from the first 3 nights of Sunwell are kind of messy as we raided a lot each night to get it cleared and I can't seem to locate our Brutallus kill, but here's a couple reports from wipes to demonstrate the RNG effect:

Wow Web Stats

Wow Web Stats

My rotation for the most part was always MF/SF til MF ticks off and iFF refreshing. Without spoiling the fight I can say I use IS sparingly for specific aspects.

 

nakedduck

I'm not stupid, obviously you're not spamming MF, and I know eventually SF spam will outpace MF. However, like I said in my previous post, with the current gear available, I doubt any of us will have the gear where you'll lose dps by putting moonfire into the rotation. When you're calculating overall dps it's fine to use a moonfire's dps as total damage done with it divided by the gcd

 

• Adoriele

Excuse me, but no it's not. a/b + c/d != (a+b)/(c+d). You want to find out how much DPS you do, you add up all the damage, and divide by the total cast time. Otherwise you get 2k DPS from Moonfire, and 1500 from starfire, for 3500 DPS, and I'm sure if we could put that out every guild in the world would be clamoring for more Moonkins and I'd be wearing a much different helm. Yes. Moonfire is an immense amount of damage for a single GCD, which is great for comparing it to other single-GCD spells, like Wrath or IS. Comparing it inside of a rotation like that is just. plain. wrong.

Also, I pointed out above the case in which adding Moonfire lowers DPS instead of raising it. With Pudgeball's stats, having anywhere between 125 and 188 haste would mean that the amount of damage you gain by using a GCD on Moonfire is LESS than the amount of damage you gain by using that GCD to pay for part of the cast time of Starfire.

 

nakedduck

I never said that's how you calculate the dps.

damage done/time

((damage done via moonfire)/gcd)* (gcd/15 (assuming we're counting the dps in 15 seconds)) + SF DPS * ((15-GCD)/15)

also, some of your calculations are a little off.

you'll need a bit more haste than 188 to fit 6 starfires in 15 seconds.
Average SF =15-(GCD)/6

.
With a 125 haste rating you get a SF cast of 2.7787611.

Assuming you were using pudge's wws,

Now, let's calculate MF + SFx5
MF + SF x 5 will last:
2.7787611 x 5 + 1.3893805 = 15.283186 seconds
Damage done = sfx5 + MF
Each SF will do 1620 * 2.7787611 = 4501.592982

since we cast 5 of them 4501.592982 * 5 = 22507.964925
1 moonfire does about 3250

(22507.964925 + 3250)/15.283186 = 1685.3792739943098251895907044513 dps

edit: none of my posts are meant to bash anyone, if I make a mistake in my math or theorycrafting, plewase point it out. Like everyone else here, we come here to share ideas

 

erragal

You're not including Nature's Grace in your calculations. That was the main reason she included his crit rate as a relevant statistic. His 40% crit rate needs to be taken into account when determining the number of Starfires used in a rotation.

 

nakedduck

a 40% crit rate = 2.8 average starfire, then when the applied 188 haste makes it a 2.5 cast, but you still need to factor the GCD after the inital Moonfire.

If my math is right, you need 345 haste rating with a 40% crit to get 6 SF's in 15 seconds

 

• Adoriele

Alright, hardball time it is, then, since you're calling me out on simplifying the haste equation. First, you want your Starfires to stop casting just before your Moonfire dot ticks off. Anything before, and you lose the last tick, which wastes mana and lowers your DPS. Secondly, your proposal that you can't quite fit 6 SFs in 15s with 188 haste actually hurts your argument, as it means there's a larger window of haste values during which SF spam is better than adding MF for DPS.

Now, how about a formula. We need to find out how much haste to give Pudge so that his rotation of MF, SFx6 fits in exactly 15 seconds. Given that the GCD gets the same compression as SF until it hits the GCD cap, it's fairly simple.



which gives us a Haste value of 346 (and lowers the GCD to 1.22s, still well before the cap). Much larger of a difference here, effectively saying that after 125 haste (given Pudge's other stats), Moonfire will always lower your DPS.

Also, as to your calculations of DPS, they're almost deliberately misleading. You're dividing by the GCD, and then multiplying that by GCD/15s. Tell me how that's different from explicitly dividing by 15s to begin with.

[edit] Post-fu needs a bit of brushing up, missed a couple while I was writing. Yes, 345/6 would be the right number.

 

nakedduck

Honestly, not trying to call you out, just trying to find exact numbers so we can gear properly. I would say 188 and 345 haste isn't something we should ignore.

If I do make a mistake, I would hope that someone would point it out so I dont screw up my rotations/gearing on a false belief.

As far as my dps calculations, I don't know, am I figuring it out wrong? I'm just "weighing" the values (like we do with SF dps). crit% * crit dmg + (1-crit%) normal dmg

a MF should be weighed as "cast time" divided by "time dpsing" times the damage done by moonfire.


edit:

When you get time, can you break down where you're getting SF spam is outdpsing MF + SFx5 with 125 haste? I'm not seeing it. I have MF + SF x5 as 60-70+ more dps

 

• Adoriele

True, the difference, once I grabbed it, is a lot more than I thought it would be, nearly double. In all likelihood, though, if you aim for exactly 15s, you're either going to clip your MF ticks or spend a bit of time waiting for it to tick off. Realistically, anything past 125 haste you should be safe dropping MF from your rotation.

As for using the GCD as the cast time, again, it's misleading. You say I can do 2k DPS with Moonfire, but I can't. If I spam it on the GCD, I get 750*1.4/1.5 = 700 DPS. If I let it tick out, I get (750*1.4 + 450*5)/15 = 220 DPS. There is no possible way to use Moonfire that gives me 2k DPS.

[edit] Bah, knew I shouldn't have deleted the sheet. Lemme try and resurrect it. It had a simplified timing calc for MF, SFx5, counting it as 15s even when it was a bit more, so it should be even less haste needed. I'm at work, though, so it might take a bit.

 

nakedduck

I agree that you should never spam moonfire, clip ticks, or aim for 15 seconds. Simply reapply it when the last ticks off.

again, I'm not saying that in real world applications you'll ever do 2k dps using just moonfire. However, when trying mathamtically trying to find it's "worth", it's safe to determine that you can drop MF once you hit this number via SF spam.

ps, if you get time can you break down how you came to the 125 haste rating to drop MF ? I don't see it.

edit: I fail at quoting

 

• Adoriele

That's just it, it's not a theory thing. It's gotta come back to the 'real world'. You're never gaining 2k DPS by spending a GCD on Moonfire. You're gaining around 3k damage, and only if you let it tick out. Trying to determine its DPS is only useful if you give it a useful amount of time to calculate with.

As for the 125 haste rating for dropping MF, the extra 60 or so DPS you get is coming from the fact that you're adding up all the cast times to divide by. Check to see if that's less than 15s. If it is (which it is), then you're clipping your last MF tick, but still counting it toward damage.

 

nakedduck

You're only clipping the cast if you're cast the next SF in 15-SF cast time


Ok, I reedited my post to include NG. Show me where I'm wrong (math or in theory) and I mean that sincerely, I'm just not following you. The following are DPS values with 5 and 6 SF after the MF

Your quote, took my values based on this.

With a 125 haste rating you get a SF cast of 2.5935.

Assuming:
(40% crit rate, 125 haste rating)
40% crit makes SF into an average base cast time of 2.8 seconds.

with 125 haste:

Now, let's calculate MF + SFx5
MF + SF x 5 will last:
2.59351 x 5 + 1.3893805 = 14.3569305 seconds
Damage done = sfx5 + MF
Each SF will do 1620 * 2.59351 = 4201.4862

since we cast 5 of them 4201.4862 * 5 = 21007.431
1 moonfire does about 3250

(21007.431 + 3250)/14.3569305 = 1689.5972993670199907981723530667 dps

Now, let's calculate MF + SFx6
MF + SF x 6 will last:
2.59351 x 6 + 1.3893805 = 16.9504405 seconds
Damage done = sfx6 + MF
Each SF will do 1620 * 2.59351 = 4201.4862

since we cast 6 of them 4201.4862 * 6 = 25208.9172
1 moonfire does about 3250

(25208.9172 + 3250)/14.3569305 = 1678.9485323405017114451981351163 dps

Both values are more than the SF spam dps

 

• Adoriele

No. Bad. No biscuit. Definition of a MF, SFx5 rotation is MF, then 5 SFs. You're correct that it takes 14.357s to fill out this rotation. So what happens next? Another MOONFIRE. Not a Starfire. Which is instant. So you have one of 2 choices. Either you clip the last tick of your Moonfire dot, or you sit waiting for it to tick off, then cast your new Moonfire.

If you're going to use the entire dot, your rotation CANNOT last for a shorter period of time than the DoT does.