No. Bad. No biscuit. Definition of a MF, SFx5 rotation is MF, then 5 SFs. You're correct that it takes 14.357s to fill out this rotation. So what happens next? Another MOONFIRE. Not a Starfire. Which is instant. So you have one of 2 choices. Either you clip the last tick of your Moonfire dot, or you sit waiting for it to tick off, then cast your new Moonfire.
If you're going to use the entire dot, your rotation CANNOT last for a shorter period of time than the DoT does.
Ok.
1. Your posts indicated that with 125 haste rating and pudge's wws, it's better to SF spam than use moonfire in the rotation.
2. Mf + SF x 6 will increase increase his dps over SF spam
3. *even if we clip the last tick*, we get:
(21007.431 + (3250-450))/14.3569305 = 1658.2535521781623167988449898814 dps
which is still more than SF spam.
I think the other factor to take in to account is specific pieces of gear. Not all moonkins are geared exactly alike. Yes, the math says MF shouldn't be dropped at my current gear level. However, just having Quagmirran's Eye negates that even with the ICD. I'm bad at math, so I can't give numbers. What I can give is experience, which honestly is all that matters on a boss fight anyway. When I add MF instead of just spamming SF my DPS drops on average 150-200 DPS. I'll run trials again when I get T6 helm to go with the gloves, but until that point I can definitely say MF shouldn't be used in my specific case.
1. Your posts indicated that with 125 haste rating and pudge's wws, it's better to SF spam than use moonfire in the rotation.
2. Mf + SF x 6 will increase increase his dps over SF spam
3. *even if we clip the last tick*, we get:
(21007.431 + (3250-450))/14.3569305 = 1658.2535521781623167988449898814 dps
which is still more than SF spam.
Again, don't talk to me like I'm an idiot.
No. My posts indicated that with Pudge's stats and 125 haste, SF spam was better than MF, SFx5. I assumed, and having confirmed your math it was an incorrect assumption, that clipping was worse than not clipping. Mystifies me, but it is, in fact, a DPS decrease to let the Moonfire tick out. MF, SFx6 is of course also a DPS increase. It's also the inflection point, as MF, SFx7 is less than MF, SFx6.
Putting more and more haste into the sheet, there is no point where SF spam is better than adding MF to the rotation, as long as you allow yourself to clip Moonfire (God, that just feels wrong to say). Probably holds out even with higher +damage amounts, as the DD part of Moonfire scales better than the DoT (because it can crit, and because it's affected by haste).
[edit] eMagdAeH, are you running out of mana? This theorycrafting assumes infinite mana, and adding Moonfire into your rotation can be a serious mana drain, which may explain your discrepancy.
The current version (available off of a link in the OP) has 2.4 loots. In fact if you look at the default gear selection, most of the items selected are Sunwell drops.
No. My posts indicated that with Pudge's stats and 125 haste, SF spam was better than MF, SFx5. I assumed, and having confirmed your math it was an incorrect assumption, that clipping was worse than not clipping. Mystifies me, but it is, in fact, a DPS decrease to let the Moonfire tick out. MF, SFx6 is of course also a DPS increase. It's also the inflection point, as MF, SFx7 is less than MF, SFx6.
Putting more and more haste into the sheet, there is no point where SF spam is better than adding MF to the rotation, as long as you allow yourself to clip Moonfire (God, that just feels wrong to say). Probably holds out even with higher +damage amounts, as the DD part of Moonfire scales better than the DoT (because it can crit, and because it's affected by haste).
[edit] eMagdAeH, are you running out of mana? This theorycrafting assumes infinite mana, and adding Moonfire into your rotation can be a serious mana drain, which may explain your discrepancy.
I wouldn't say clipping the moonfire tick is a good idea. Check the dps given infinate time and it will support ticking out the moonfire MF + SFx[Number of SF's you can cast within a MF]
MFx1 + SF x 1000000000 will be better dps than SF spam until you get enough spell damage where 1 SF dps > (Moonfire hit + ticks)/(GCD)
eMagdAeH, are you running out of mana? This theorycrafting assumes infinite mana, and adding Moonfire into your rotation can be a serious mana drain, which may explain your discrepancy.
Oh no, never really had mana problems except on some early SSC/TK fights while I was still getting geared up.
The current version (available off of a link in the OP) has 2.4 loots. In fact if you look at the default gear selection, most of the items selected are Sunwell drops.
Adoriele, you've said some things very well in this thread, and I may refer some misguided casters of various classes to your discussion of when hit rating is more or less valuable than damage. But I think you're making the MF evaluation seem more complicated than it need be. Really all that matters is whether the MF dps alone--taken, as Nakedduck has done, as the total damage from casting it divided by the time spent casting it (the GCD)--exceeds the SF dps--that is, total starfire damage divided by the average starfire cast time (including the effect of both haste and Nature's Grace procs). If it does, then replacing any SF with a MF that gets its full damage (i.e. is not clipped by overwriting or target death) increases dps; that is, the time that would have been spent on generating some amount of damage via SF is instead used to generate more total damage via MF. The more complete MF's are fit in, the greater the dps increase, as long as mana is not a concern. In cases of extreme disparity between MF and SF dps, clipping MF might be justified, but doing so is never necessary for MF's use.
Also (and this is directed at all parties evaluating idealized continuous models like fractional numbers of Starfire casts), everybody needs to keep in mind that there is no fixed cast rotation for any amount of haste including zero. Nature's Grace procs are variable; in practice one chain casts SF however many times it takes for the MF to have completed during the last SF's cast and then (again, when mana permits) reapplies MF. There are no set haste values that will make this more or less smooth. Trying to reapply MF exactly as the previous one completes will generally result in lost damage no matter how much haste one has, as the last SF cast is exceedingly unlikely to complete at that precise moment.
Sorry folks. Have been very busy in-game and have neglected to update, as well as to check this thread (for some reason I wasn't getting e-mails, and thought it was inactive.)
I'll try and push once more to accommodate the updated spirit mechanics and what 2.4 gear we're aware of at this point. WARNING: This may be the last update as Rawr and an online Moonkin simulator ( WoW Forums -> Moonkin DPS simulator. ) someone has released recently offer distinct advantages over the spreadsheet (namely: I don't have to release new versions of them every time an item of interest is added).
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
Too bad, Efejel. Thanks for all the work you put in this. Personally I think Rawr is too buggy atm to make it a viable alternative. The spreadsheet offers more finegrained control as well. I'll continue to use the spreadsheet as long as possible
Too bad, Efejel. Thanks for all the work you put in this. Personally I think Rawr is too buggy atm to make it a viable alternative. The spreadsheet offers more finegrained control as well. I'll continue to use the spreadsheet as long as possible
I agree with Rawr being buggy (as well as not running very well on my Mac). The simulator was something I hadn't seen before and seems to be fairly accurate with what I see in game. I will still be playing with the spreadsheet as it makes deciding between 2 pieces of gear much more intuitive.
Adoriele, you've said some things very well in this thread, and I may refer some misguided casters of various classes to your discussion of when hit rating is more or less valuable than damage. But I think you're making the MF evaluation seem more complicated than it need be. Really all that matters is whether the MF dps alone--taken, as Nakedduck has done, as the total damage from casting it divided by the time spent casting it (the GCD)--exceeds the SF dps--that is, total starfire damage divided by the average starfire cast time (including the effect of both haste and Nature's Grace procs). If it does, then replacing any SF with a MF that gets its full damage (i.e. is not clipped by overwriting or target death) increases dps; that is, the time that would have been spent on generating some amount of damage via SF is instead used to generate more total damage via MF. The more complete MF's are fit in, the greater the dps increase, as long as mana is not a concern. In cases of extreme disparity between MF and SF dps, clipping MF might be justified, but doing so is never necessary for MF's use.
Also (and this is directed at all parties evaluating idealized continuous models like fractional numbers of Starfire casts), everybody needs to keep in mind that there is no fixed cast rotation for any amount of haste including zero. Nature's Grace procs are variable; in practice one chain casts SF however many times it takes for the MF to have completed during the last SF's cast and then (again, when mana permits) reapplies MF. There are no set haste values that will make this more or less smooth. Trying to reapply MF exactly as the previous one completes will generally result in lost damage no matter how much haste one has, as the last SF cast is exceedingly unlikely to complete at that precise moment.
You're probably right that I'm making it a bit more complicated, and in essence I already practice running my last SF far longer than it takes for IS and MF to tick out (I use IS, MF, SFx4, and very rarely switch it to IS, MF, SFx3, W, as it's just more convenient to always run the same cycle). And yes, taken that way, I suppose it does make sense to calculate MF's DPS as over its cast time. One does, however, have to weigh the potential gain in DPS against the mana cost in the end. MF does barely more damage than a Starfire hit, and costs about half again as much. Although it seems in 2.4 like I never run out of mana anyway, so...
Ef, thank you for all of the work you've done on the sheet. If you decide to discontinue updating it, I'm pretty sure I'll just add new gear in on my own copy for a long time. Or perhaps take over updating it. Rawr's nice in that it can update its own gear, but I don't trust the numbers coming out of it yet.
The numbers that come out of it are reasonable, usually only off by 1% dps vs the spreadsheet, but also consistently off by that 1%, so I trust its advice. It's still missing debuffs/buffs and some other things included in the spreadsheet.
However, its also for a more casual user rather than a min maxer. Rawr will only tell you your current best cycle in a very static setup, and I like comparing each cycle with each other. For example, I can see how much benefit mp regen will give me after I meet the bare minimum regen for a IS SFx4 rotation. That and the spreadsheet is light years faster than Rawr since it calculates everything on the fly.
I'll poke around that simulator to see if it'll make up what Rawr lacks. It's definitely a much bigger chore to keep the spreadsheet updated for new items/mechanic changes, so thanks for all the work thusfar Ef.
Thanks for the positive feedback guys! It's definately encouraging to see how many of you took the time to point out some things I had missed, as far as features of the spreadsheet vs. Rawr/simulator.
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
The numbers that come out of it are reasonable, usually only off by 1% dps vs the spreadsheet, but also consistently off by that 1%, so I trust its advice. It's still missing debuffs/buffs and some other things included in the spreadsheet.
However, its also for a more casual user rather than a min maxer. Rawr will only tell you your current best cycle in a very static setup, and I like comparing each cycle with each other. For example, I can see how much benefit mp regen will give me after I meet the bare minimum regen for a IS SFx4 rotation. That and the spreadsheet is light years faster than Rawr since it calculates everything on the fly.
I'll poke around that simulator to see if it'll make up what Rawr lacks. It's definitely a much bigger chore to keep the spreadsheet updated for new items/mechanic changes, so thanks for all the work thusfar Ef.
The next version of Rawr.Moonkin is looking at addressing some of these. I'm also working with Ef to help improve the program in ways you guys will like. I'm afraid it will always be slower than the spreadsheet due to its nature, but maybe we can make it into a tool you guys will actually use. The next release will include all cycles on the display page, among other various improvements.
The next version of Rawr.Moonkin is looking at addressing some of these. I'm also working with Ef to help improve the program in ways you guys will like. I'm afraid it will always be slower than the spreadsheet due to its nature, but maybe we can make it into a tool you guys will actually use. The next release will include all cycles on the display page, among other various improvements.
Could we possibly request a more Mac-friendly app?
A while back, I was testing idol swapping, but did not have enough testing in and/or on the right mob. I just now had a chance to go Boomkin again. Thought I would share my results. All results are from Dr. Boom:
Just did some testing POST 2.4 w/ idol swapping. The absolute best cast cycle for me is:
3x - Macro 1
1x - Macro 2
1x - Moonfire
W/ slightly nerfed gear (not using the crusade card), my results were from 3 entire mana pools: 930, 905, 910 DPS self buffed
Your cast cycle using idol swapping would be the following:
macro #1 x3
#showtooltip
/cast Starfire
/equip [noequipped: Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess] Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess
Macro #2 x1
#showtooltip
/cast Starfire
/equip [noequipped: Idol of the Unseen Moon] Idol of the Unseen Moon
Moonfire x1
There are other ways to do the starfire idol swap, but I have found them inconsistent for me. I lose on average 1/8th to 1/4 of GCD time with them. So im sticking with my way above...
I cannot tell you why I have such a drastic boost in DPS with just an idol swap. The numbers just dont add up when on paper. I can just tell you that these are real results that I got.
I am no expert, but I do see some possible issues with your gearing. If you are going to wear the eye of mag, I would start playing around with reducing your spell hit a bit, so that you can actually get resisted now and then to increase your spell damage. Although I have not found that the return result was worth the effort. You could try dropping the green +hit trinket and replacing it with the Icon of the silver crescent and see what results you get.
As for dropping dreamstate. I love the fact that I will not have to drink mana like a mad man anymore. Im keeping it for now. YMMV
What is your DPS? Have you tried just a simple MFx1 , SF x 4 rotation?
Originally Posted by shenando
Just a quick question...
Should I untalent dreamstate now that 2.4 has effected changes to spirit based mana regen?
I am still poor at dps and now the spreadsheet is asking me to go 1xIS 7xWrath...
Any suggestions? I am struggling to even stay above the tanks in terms of damage!
Any suggestions? I am struggling to even stay above the tanks in terms of damage!
While i would say that there are a number of optimisations that can be done to your gear (green trinket, enchants, some items, ...), your current stats should be enough to allow yo to do some very decent dps and bring you much higher than the tanks.
IS, W*7 is good for short fights, unless you are always with shadow priest and chaman it probably won't work in the long run. You might also want to verify wether CoS in on in the spreadsheet as it changes the results. But honestly, appart from getting OOM soon in the fight, or not casting permanentlyn, i don't really see how you could be just over the tank.
Could you give us more details on the situations ?
Could we possibly request a more Mac-friendly app?
Are you using Excel 2008 (Mac equivalent of 2007)? The spreadsheet works correctly on Excel 2004, but will never work in Excel 2008 because it does not allow Windows-style macros. You can instead use OpenOffice, the link to which can be found in the OP.
Are you using Excel 2008 (Mac equivalent of 2007)? The spreadsheet works correctly on Excel 2004, but will never work in Excel 2008 because it does not allow Windows-style macros. You can instead use OpenOffice, the link to which can be found in the OP.
The spreadsheet works wonderfully for me (Mac Office 2004) - it's Rawr that I'd like to be a bit more Mac friendly. I know Parallels is one option - but I usually don't have that loaded on my laptop (where I do most of my work/game analysis). I'm also still running a G4 desktop that is PowerPC based so no help there.
As I said before, I love the spreadsheet - will likely try my best to keep my copy updated with gear, etc.. Thanks Ef.
There are other ways to do the starfire idol swap, but I have found them inconsistent for me. I lose on average 1/8th to 1/4 of GCD time with them. So im sticking with my way above...
As has been mentioned before, the problem with idol swapping MF on the MF cast is the item switching global cooldown that is incurred. As you start accumulating spell haste gear, it hurts you more and more.
I can see how swapping to the MF idol on the last SF before re-applying MF can help negate this. Eventhough it is at the cost of doing a SF without the SF idol equipped.
Also, idol swapping prevents spamming buttons when you are about to use a different spell. As such, you have to wait for the spell to finish casting and then hit the button or you will incur a GCD prematurely with the gear swap. This in turn means that you do not get the benefit of the new spell "queuing" system that was introduced in 2.3??. Which prevented the need to use /stopcasting macros to circumvent the client-server lag that was present... and reducing the number of total spells cast.
I need to try and do some empirical tests of my own to see if the idol swapping is indeed worth it. Or if it's best to pick one and just go with it.
Also, idol swapping prevents spamming buttons when you are about to use a different spell. As such, you have to wait for the spell to finish casting and then hit the button or you will incur a GCD prematurely with the gear swap. This in turn means that you do not get the benefit of the new spell "queuing" system that was introduced in 2.3??. Which prevented the need to use /stopcasting macros to circumvent the client-server lag that was present... and reducing the number of total spells cast.
Marginally true. I've been idol-swapping since 2.4, though it's not very heavy as I don't have the Moonfire Idol (thinking about finally picking it up, though), and I rarely use Wrath. You can still pre-cast your spells post-2.3, and include an idol swap, you just can't spam the button (which in itself isn't actually true. If you know you're going to Wrath after a Starfire, spam at the start to get the idol swap, and the GCD will finish before SF finishes casting. You can switch idols under a GCD). As long as you're sure the pre-cast will go through, using an idol swap on the pre-cast is fine.
03/31/08, 6:45 PM
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