Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet - Page 43

Sciencegeek · 04/02/08, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by Zene

I need to try and do some empirical tests of my own to see if the idol swapping is indeed worth it. Or if it's best to pick one and just go with it.

Any thoughts as to wether it is more beneficial (overall) to equip the Idol of the Raven Goddess rather than say the starfire idol?

Zene · 04/02/08, 4:01 PM

Originally Posted by Sciencegeek

Any thoughts as to wether it is more beneficial (overall) to equip the Idol of the Raven Goddess rather than say the starfire idol?

[Idol of the Raven Goddess]
[Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess]
[Idol of the Unseen Moon]
[Idol of the Avenger]

Let's compare the +crit raven goddess idol with the +starfire dmg Ivory Idol.

To me we're looking at a constant 20 spell crit rating which I believe is 0.9% crit versus 55 spell dmg to Starfire. Now I'm considering this to act like an extra 55 spell damage on your character sheet that only effects Starfire. (please correct me if I'm wrong)

So 55 spell dmg vs 20 spell crit. If you consider it like that, the Starfire Idol will always win out in terms of DPS. This is similar to how you would compare the stats on gear. Now, the tricky part is that the spell damage only applies to Starfire. So you will need to negate the spell damage from IS and MF if you use them in your rotation.

The real kicker though is, that it is an extra 20 spell crit for your entire group. That's harder to quantify and may be worth it for better "raid" DPS at the cost of personal DPS. This is similar to how I maintain IS on the boss because it provides utility at the cost of a little DPS on my end. This is the real question to ask yourself, in my opinion.

Sciencegeek · 04/02/08, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by Zene

The real kicker though is, that it is an extra 20 spell crit for your entire group. That's harder to quantify and may be worth it for better "raid" DPS at the cost of personal DPS. This is similar to how I maintain IS on the boss because it provides utility at the cost of a little DPS on my end. This is the real question to ask yourself, in my opinion.

This is what I was wondering. I ran with the Raven idol last night through Gruul's and on Mag, but my DPS/damage meters weren't working. I'm going to give it another go tonight in ZA and see if I can come up with a reasonable answer.

Edit: From playing with the spreadsheet, it appears that my hypothetical max DPS would be around 643 with the Starfire Idol and 632 with the Raven one. Now, I'd like to think that the increase in Crit for my group would offset the loss of ~12DPS that I suffer, but to be honest, I'm not that familiar with how other classes work in that regards.

• Adoriele · 04/02/08, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by Sciencegeek

This is what I was wondering. I ran with the Raven idol last night through Gruul's and on Mag, but my DPS/damage meters weren't working. I'm going to give it another go tonight in ZA and see if I can come up with a reasonable answer.

Edit: From playing with the spreadsheet, it appears that my hypothetical max DPS would be around 643 with the Starfire Idol and 632 with the Raven one. Now, I'd like to think that the increase in Crit for my group would offset the loss of ~12DPS that I suffer, but to be honest, I'm not that familiar with how other classes work in that regards.

As a rough approximation, the Idol adds .9% crit to your group (including yourself), and anyone who'll actually get use from that gets about .9% DPS out of it. The Starfire idol give you approximately 25 DPS with your Starfire, less if you add anything else in the rotation, more depending on the debuffs on the mob (I.E. CoS, CoE, etc.). So is 25 personal DPS better than .9% DPS from each person your aura affects? Given 5 casters, including yourself, with 600 DPS, the raid DPS increase from the Raven Idol is about 27.

nakedduck · 04/02/08, 5:12 PM

Originally Posted by insomniac2k1

I am no expert, but I do see some possible issues with your gearing. If you are going to wear the eye of mag, I would start playing around with reducing your spell hit a bit, so that you can actually get resisted now and then to increase your spell damage. Although I have not found that the return result was worth the effort. You could try dropping the green +hit trinket and replacing it with the Icon of the silver crescent and see what results you get.

"Equip: Grants 170 increased spell damage for 10 sec when one of your spells is resisted."

Losing spell hit will never ever be worth the proc of getting 170 spell damage for 10 seconds

thedopefishlives · 04/02/08, 5:19 PM

Originally Posted by nakedduck

"Equip: Grants 170 increased spell damage for 10 sec when one of your spells is resisted."

Losing spell hit will never ever be worth the proc of getting 170 spell damage for 10 seconds

Not to mention that since the spell hit rate caps at 99%, during a long fight you're _probably_ going to wind up getting a resist at least once even if you are at maxed spell hit. Sure, it may make the trinket worth a measly 170 * 10 / 360 = 4.7 spell damage if you're unlucky (one resist in a 6-minute fight), but it's better than losing an extra Starfire to a resist.

nakedduck · 04/02/08, 5:19 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Marginally true. I've been idol-swapping since 2.4, though it's not very heavy as I don't have the Moonfire Idol (thinking about finally picking it up, though), and I rarely use Wrath. You can still pre-cast your spells post-2.3, and include an idol swap, you just can't spam the button (which in itself isn't actually true. If you know you're going to Wrath after a Starfire, spam at the start to get the idol swap, and the GCD will finish before SF finishes casting. You can switch idols under a GCD). As long as you're sure the pre-cast will go through, using an idol swap on the pre-cast is fine.

I've messed around with idol swapping and know to maximize dps, it's the best way to do it. However, on fights like gorefiend when you get so much pushback, it can be difficult to time the idol swaps well without having the double gcd. Have you or anyone else had success with swapping the SF idol with the Moonfire idol with fights that have plenty of pushback?

insomniac2k1 · 04/02/08, 5:30 PM

The only way I will accomodate spell haste is on exact or close to exact numbers. I havent yet begun the math, because I do not yet have any haste gear. But when the time comes, I will make sure that I will have enough haste to fit 5 x SF's to 1x MF per rotation. Until then, I will always try to either clip the tail end of the MF dot, or at least hit right after it.

Originally Posted by Zene

As has been mentioned before, the problem with idol swapping MF on the MF cast is the item switching global cooldown that is incurred. As you start accumulating spell haste gear, it hurts you more and more.

I only lose 1 cast out of 4 though. In return, I get a 50% proc rate on increasing my spell damage by 140 for 10 seconds (the entire next cast cycle w/ the SF idol equipped)

Originally Posted by Zene

I can see how swapping to the MF idol on the last SF before re-applying MF can help negate this. Eventhough it is at the cost of doing a SF without the SF idol equipped.

Im not a button masher. I got used to /stopcasting long ago, and cannot revert back.

Originally Posted by Zene

Also, idol swapping prevents spamming buttons when you are about to use a different spell.

Definitely give it a try. I have had huge results, and absolutely will not do without it.

Originally Posted by Zene

I need to try and do some empirical tests of my own to see if the idol swapping is indeed worth it. Or if it's best to pick one and just go with it.

Originally Posted by nakedduck

"Equip: Grants 170 increased spell damage for 10 sec when one of your spells is resisted."

Losing spell hit will never ever be worth the proc of getting 170 spell damage for 10 seconds

I completely agree. This is why i wouldnt use the Eye. You can attempt to get mathematical with it, but I personally would not find it worth the effort. I would recommend the DarkMoon Card: Crusade as a replacement to that.

• Adoriele · 04/02/08, 5:42 PM

Originally Posted by nakedduck

I've messed around with idol swapping and know to maximize dps, it's the best way to do it. However, on fights like gorefiend when you get so much pushback, it can be difficult to time the idol swaps well without having the double gcd. Have you or anyone else had success with swapping the SF idol with the Moonfire idol with fights that have plenty of pushback?

Considering I have problems sometimes swapping Wrath and SF idols when soloing, no. Pushback is an SOB to work through, unless, as I stated above, you know you're following up an SF with something else, in which case the swap occurs well before you need to worry about the end of the cast.

nakedduck · 04/02/08, 5:42 PM

Originally Posted by insomniac2k1

The only way I will accomodate spell haste is on exact or close to exact numbers. I havent yet begun the math, because I do not yet have any haste gear. But when the time comes, I will make sure that I will have enough haste to fit 5 x SF's to 1x MF per rotation. Until then, I will always try to either clip the tail end of the MF dot, or at least hit right after it.

Clipping MF ticks hurts your dps, almost always better to let it tick

I only lose 1 cast out of 4 though. In return, I get a 50% proc rate on increasing my spell damage by 140 for 10 seconds (the entire next cast cycle w/ the SF idol equipped)

One interesting thing to note, if you're not an idol swapper, The starfire idol is better with the 2T6 bonus and the moonfire idol is better without the T6 bonus given that you let moonfire run it's entire length.

Zene · 04/02/08, 5:45 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

As a rough approximation, the Idol adds .9% crit to your group (including yourself), and anyone who'll actually get use from that gets about .9% DPS out of it. The Starfire idol give you approximately 25 DPS with your Starfire, less if you add anything else in the rotation, more depending on the debuffs on the mob (I.E. CoS, CoE, etc.). So is 25 personal DPS better than .9% DPS from each person your aura affects? Given 5 casters, including yourself, with 600 DPS, the raid DPS increase from the Raven Idol is about 27.

Your group composition is important. Mages/warlocks/elemental shamans will get the most out of your crit buff. Priest/Shaman/Paladin healers will also benefit, more so paladins for the mana regen and the other 2 types for the +armor buffs they proc on crit heals. In a 25 man you're more likely to be put into a powerhouse caster group so it makes sense to use your crit idol. In a 10 man, depending on the group composition your idol won't help as many people. I'd say if you have 4 people who can benefit go for it, if you have less than 4 maybe stick to your own personal dps idol. I'm sure someone can whip out the math to prove it one way or another but that's my gut feeling.

Zene · 04/02/08, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by insomniac2k1

Im not a button masher. I got used to /stopcasting long ago, and cannot revert back.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But don't you almost want to be a button masher with the "new" spell queue system Blizzard implemented a few patches ago. I believe I notice if say my Starfire cast is 2.7/3.0 cast then i hit another starfire and realize my MF is down, I hit MF, SF will begin casting after due to the spell queue system not the MF.

• Adoriele · 04/02/08, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by Zene

Your group composition is important. Mages/warlocks/elemental shamans will get the most out of your crit buff. Priest/Shaman/Paladin healers will also benefit, more so paladins for the mana regen and the other 2 types for the +armor buffs they proc on crit heals. In a 25 man you're more likely to be put into a powerhouse caster group so it makes sense to use your crit idol. In a 10 man, depending on the group composition your idol won't help as many people. I'd say if you have 4 people who can benefit go for it, if you have less than 4 maybe stick to your own personal dps idol. I'm sure someone can whip out the math to prove it one way or another but that's my gut feeling.

It'd actually be pretty damn hard to prove either way with math, without knowing (or accounting for) exactly what the group composition is. Though it gives me the idea that an option in the spreadsheet to detail group composition may be nice, it would really only be useful for knowing exactly how much mana regen you're getting from your SPriest, and whether the Raven idol is worth it. 600 DPS from 5 affected casters is pretty close, though, so I might be tempted to call it a rule of thumb. Or maybe something like Average DPS * number of affected casters > 2800 or something similar.

insomniac2k1 · 04/02/08, 6:36 PM

Originally Posted by nakedduck

Clipping MF ticks hurts your dps, almost always better to let it tick.

Its never a good idea to either not cast, or cast a 5th SF in a 4 to 1 rotation, just to let the remaining 1 second of MF tick. I just cant justify it. I dont want to mess with timing on that level. also keep in mind that everytime you are hitting MF w/ idol swapping, you are taking a 50% chance to proc another 140 spell damage. I would much rather hit MF that second early and gamble on that 50% into the next rotation.

If I were not idol swapping, that may not be the case; but even then, i would not let 1-2 seconds go to waste while waiting for MF to complete. It's preference really. Mana efficieny is no longer an issue.

Originally Posted by Zene

Correct me if I'm wrong. But don't you almost want to be a button masher with the "new" spell queue system Blizzard implemented a few patches ago. I believe I notice if say my Starfire cast is 2.7/3.0 cast then i hit another starfire and realize my MF is down, I hit MF, SF will begin casting after due to the spell queue system not the MF.

Im not saying that button mashing is a bad thing. It's just in my play style anymore. I try to accomodate this curve as much as pussible using Quartz. Anything beyond that is just overthinking to me. Im a hands on kind of guy. I do what works for me.

apsod · 04/02/08, 7:35 PM

Originally Posted by insomniac2k1

#showtooltip
/cast Starfire
/equip [noequipped: Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess] Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess

I have seen this type of macro posted on the forums many times. This doesn't actually behave the way ppl think.

The error is this line:
/equip [noequipped: Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess] Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess

equipped (and noequipped) take a slot type, not an item name. Something like:
One-Hand
Shields
Fishing Poles
etc

Currently, your 'noequipped' modifier will always return 'true' because there is no slottype called 'Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess', so you couldn't have it 'equipped' ever.

Now, I don't think it really matters, as I think the game won't 'reequip' an item if it's already equipped (at least I haven't noticed the gcd resetting if I call an equip of something I already have equipped, but I might have missed it).

The proper way to write the exact line you want to write is with this script:
/run if not IsEquippedItem("Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess") then EquipItemByName("Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess"); end

with the full macro:

#showtooltip
/cast Starfire
/run if not IsEquippedItem("Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess") then EquipItemByName("Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess"); end

@Ef

Thank you for the awesome spreadsheet.
Imo, rawr and the simulator that was linked are interesting, but, in their current state, not anywhere close to being as useful as your spreadsheet is. I would beg you not to discontinue it, but I know it's probably hard work to maintain, so I wouldn't impose on you.
In any event, it's reaching a stage where one could call it 'good enough to be called finished', apart from adding new items and patch changes... If it's just the new items, I have noticed it's very easy to add them (my own sheet has the missing 2.4 items I want added in ^^), so I'm sure you could find someone to fork that part to.

In any event, thanks again

Saraya · 04/03/08, 12:56 AM

The exalted SSO pendant is looking pretty good: [Shattered Sun Pendant of Acumen]

Assuming the typical 45 second internal cooldown, that's a proc every 50 seconds, or a 7 dps increase with the scryer proc, and a ~+24 damage bonus for the aldor proc. 7 dps increase, since its affected by crit, is ~14 damage, on top of the high base damage. Seems to beat out even the kara Prince neck regardless of which side you're on. Does this math look right?

(Obviously the best use is for elemental shaman in kara, since seeing a lightning bolt with lightning overload, lightning capacitor, wrath of the titans, and this neck proc would just be wholesome fun for the whole family)

shenando · 04/03/08, 4:14 AM

I haven't got the Icon of the Crescent Moon. working on that atm... as for the green quality Tablet of Vim, sad to say, it is one of my largest source of +spellhit since I am Aldor... the next best +spellhit trinket would be the scryer's trinket or items that drop from BT.

My performance in raid is really bad. It has never been a mana issue. It is always threat is too high or juz plain damage - no crits. Which means criting too much or not at all. Lots of self doubt for me lately as I have been dropped from the raiding roster to standby raider(BT/MH btw) due to poor performance. I have never ripped aggro tho so I am wondering if I am holding back too much when casting. I watch omen too much maybe? Any suggestions on how i should react in raid? If I get to raid that is...

And lastly, it would not make sense that the spreadsheet says my optimal cycle would be IS,MF,Wrathx7 because I have the starfire idol equiped and SF scales a hell lot better than wrath...

great work on the spreadsheet EJ! I love it.

Tarranus · 04/03/08, 6:32 AM

1) Where'd Lorewanderer go with our Theorycrafting thread

2) Where'd the good conversation go from page 40-41 between Pudge and Adoriele go? Less bullshit about things that are already covered in DEPTH in this thread (IE Idol Switching Macros and their pro/cons) and more important things. IE The point at which Haste > Crit and ultimately Haste > Spell Dmg for DPS.

Edit: And what is the opinion of Gemming for Haste? Is this mathematically savvy?

Greyve · 04/03/08, 9:32 AM

Originally Posted by shenando

My performance in raid is really bad. It has never been a mana issue. It is always threat is too high or juz plain damage - no crits. Which means criting too much or not at all. Lots of self doubt for me lately as I have been dropped from the raiding roster to standby raider(BT/MH btw) due to poor performance. I have never ripped aggro tho so I am wondering if I am holding back too much when casting. I watch omen too much maybe? Any suggestions on how i should react in raid? If I get to raid that is...

First...how much threat do your tanks generate? At the moment im around 1300-1400 Dps. I always recieve Salvation and have 3 Points in Subtlety. My Threat is around 900 and our tanks usually generate 1000-1400+ Threat (changing from encounter to encounter)
Ask your "Collegues", if they have similar problems. (Shamys for example suffer from Threat-Cap,too.)
Perhaps its not your failure and your Tanks suck.

I've witnessed the "Crit-Chain-Phenomenon", too and i think it has something to do with Blizzards internal "Random Number Generator". Sometimes its just...really bad luck.

And...another thing. Has anyone of you tried out Wrath-Spam after 2.4?
Due to GCD-Reduce to 1 second by NG i could throw really many little Green Balls...with Heroism it got down to .6
(A mage called that "Insane Batshit" when he saw the Green Stream fly by his head.)
On a Short Fight like Winterchill i could stand through the whole time with Wrath, consuming two Manapot (without Alchemists Stone), consuming my own Innervate...(Around 6500-7000 Mana...yay!)
I now have around 270 Mp5 full Raidbuffed. 1300Dps on both fights (One with MF/Starfire, the other with MF/Wrath.)

Wrath Webstats: Wow Web Stats

Starfire Webstats: Wow Web Stats

At Wrath i ate some Novas, no Death and Decay nor an Iceblock, on the Starfire fight i had to move a bit due to D&D. In both fights i was grouped with a Shadow-Priest and an Ele-Shammy.

The only Equip that changed from Starfire to Wrath are my T6 Gloves instead of T5, breaking up the T5 Bonus.
So...i am thinking about dropping my T5 to gain more Spellhaste, -Crit and -Damage.

Sciencegeek · 04/03/08, 10:40 AM

@Greyve -

I've been using wrath spam alot lately (Gruul's/Mag/most of Kara) and haven't really run out of mana. Usually take a pot or 2 and if needed my innervate. I think this might be a more viable rotation until I get the T5/6 bonus (at least in my situation).

ohrion · 04/03/08, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by shenando

My performance in raid is really bad. It has never been a mana issue. It is always threat is too high or juz plain damage - no crits. Which means criting too much or not at all. Lots of self doubt for me lately as I have been dropped from the raiding roster to standby raider(BT/MH btw) due to poor performance. I have never ripped aggro tho so I am wondering if I am holding back too much when casting. I watch omen too much maybe? Any suggestions on how i should react in raid? If I get to raid that is...

If you are having threat issues and not having mana issues I would suggest dropping some mana regen talents and putting more points in subtlety.

nakedduck · 04/03/08, 11:41 AM

And...another thing. Has anyone of you tried out Wrath-Spam after 2.4?
Due to GCD-Reduce to 1 second by NG i could throw really many little Green Balls...with Heroism it got down to .6

I 'm 99% certain NG does not affect the GCD. Only haste can lower the GCD, and NG is not concidered as a haste effect

shenando · 04/03/08, 12:29 PM

The other guildies are not facing any rpoblems with threat so it must be me... trying out new rotations now...

• Adoriele · 04/03/08, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by nakedduck

I 'm 99% certain NG does not affect the GCD. Only haste can lower the GCD, and NG is not concidered as a haste effect

This is correct. NG does not reduce the GCD, even after 2.4, so a Wrath on an NG proc is a wasted proc.

Tarranus, the math hasn't gone away, I'm just a bit busy with work this past week, so I can't play around with the formulas as much as I'd like to. I still plan on doing as much of a workup as I can. Haste is gonna be a tricky issue to work with, though, as its value seems to depend literally on every other stat we have. I should have some more stuff up this weekend about Hit, and possibly crit, this weekend.

ohrion · 04/03/08, 2:49 PM

Originally Posted by shenando

The other guildies are not facing any rpoblems with threat so it must be me... trying out new rotations now...

If you are having problems with threat there are two ways to reduce it:

lower your dmg out
increase -threat modifiers.

Lowering your dmg out clearly isn't going to solve the problem and changing your cast rotation is not going to increase -threat modifiers on the dmg you do.