If your mana can sustain it, haste is better than crit for DPS. The problem with haste is it does not raise DPM at all where crit does.
Originally Posted by thedopefishlives
It doesn't give any weight to stamina. I'm not sure why either, because my napkin math says that the Icon's on-use effect should be worth ~26 spell damage if used on every cooldown, which puts the icon at ~69 effective spell damage, versus the Battlemaster's static 47. Perhaps that should be a hint to me to recheck my math.
The issue is that any non static stat seems to be flat out ignored right now(maybe you already changed it in your development version). As I can see it, the ratio of Sorc's Alch stone : Hex Head : Icon is exactly 63 : 53 : 43. If it's possible to add an Alchemist's Stone flag to the gain from the mana pot, that'd be real swell.
Another thing I'm not sure if it's possible to model would be the SSO exalted neck. The Aldor version procs a +120 damage buff for 10 seconds, the scryers get a avg 350 DD spell. Internal cooldown seems to be about 45 seconds according to the comments, and my personal 33 minute in combat run from a heroic SH resulted in 32 procs, so around 1 per minute. (Warning for any fellow scryers using this - be VERY careful of your target since the proc can go off any spell, and I was pulling monsters all last night by rebuffing myself with motw, or lifeblooming myself etc).
If your mana can sustain it, haste is better than crit for DPS. The problem with haste is it does not raise DPM at all where crit does.
The issue is that any non static stat seems to be flat out ignored right now(maybe you already changed it in your development version). As I can see it, the ratio of Sorc's Alch stone : Hex Head : Icon is exactly 63 : 53 : 43. If it's possible to add an Alchemist's Stone flag to the gain from the mana pot, that'd be real swell.
Another thing I'm not sure if it's possible to model would be the SSO exalted neck. The Aldor version procs a +120 damage buff for 10 seconds, the scryers get a avg 350 DD spell. Internal cooldown seems to be about 45 seconds according to the comments, and my personal 33 minute in combat run from a heroic SH resulted in 32 procs, so around 1 per minute. (Warning for any fellow scryers using this - be VERY careful of your target since the proc can go off any spell, and I was pulling monsters all last night by rebuffing myself with motw, or lifeblooming myself etc).
Beta 13 was just released, so Timbal's and the SSO neck will not be included in that version, but I will work on them this week, as well as the Alchemist's Stone. I should be able to add that without a flag on the options page.
The spreadsheet says that i would increase my dps by getting some hastegear, but you guys are saying that its stupid to go for hastegear when you're not having any T6. So if you could give me some sort of advise or anything that would help me please do so .
Using the formula you posted, does 1392 spell damage sound right for the amount of spell damage you need to start gemming for haste? (10 haste = 12 spell damage, 1.2 ratio)
Also, planning on making a spreadsheet? :P I'm lazy and takes me a bit to match your variables with thier respective values.
Using the formula you posted, does 1392 spell damage sound right for the amount of spell damage you need to start gemming for haste? (10 haste = 12 spell damage, 1.2 ratio)
Also, planning on making a spreadsheet? :P I'm lazy and takes me a bit to match your variables with thier respective values.
Okay, enough of a poke for me to do a little more math. Let's define a new function, which takes a specific amount of added rating, rather than just 1:
It should be fairly simple to prove, given our previous equations, that in the case of Haste vs. Damage gems (NOT MIXED), the following equation holds:
If this fraction is greater than 1, Haste gems are better. If less than 1, Damage gems are better. Again, this is only for pure stat gems. I do plan on doing a more thorough workup for hybrid gems in the future.
Now where does this put the breakpoint? As before, set equal to 1 and solve for :
So to answer your question in as many words as possible, yes =) As it turns out, if you use rare gems, the breakpoint is instead 1274.5, which makes sense since the Damage:Haste ratio for a rare gem is only 1.125. So if you only have access to rare gems, gem haste earlier.
As for a Spreadsheet, that's up to Ef. I may put up a small one, though I have no idea where to host it at the moment. It would be a work in progress, I'd add to it every time I increment my workup, but it would not have item choices. It would take actual, char sheet values and give breakpoints and equivalences, but that's about it.
Can you e-mail or PM me a spreadsheet, and I can try and incorporate this info somewhere on the existing sheet? Heck, just post it on filefront (or better yet, a hosting service that will let you post updated at the same address) & I can include a link in the first post, in addition to trying to integrate it. That way if you need to make updates/add features frequently, people can grab just your sheet.
Or, if you've already modified the existing spreadsheet, add yourself to the contributors section, increment the version number and upload/PM.
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
hi i just joined elitist jerks wanting to join in something other than the forums to listen to people talk about "chuck norris" on our server.........i am a moonkin however.
it may seem a little late to actually join in this convo. a little late in time, but id like to know if "in general" moonkins only revolve around their gear being spell crit, int, stam, and spell crit, just that, because of the build that i have, it regens 30% mana while casting w/o innervate + 10% of my intellect every 5, plus, i usually tend to ask for salvation if there happens to be a pally in the party, (which usually there is one), and i have a specific rotation as well:
SF, MF, W (wrath continues until moonfire finishes its circulation, rinse and repeat)
know i am simply curious if the IMP FF ablility affects casters +hit obviously with melee (rogue.warrior.shammy) ranged ( hunter) but does ranged also include casters?
thank you for your help
know i am simply curious if the IMP FF ablility affects casters +hit obviously with melee (rogue.warrior.shammy) ranged ( hunter) but does ranged also include casters?
thank you for your help
No. Please read the rules of these forums and attempt to use complete sentences and proper punctuation.
Yup, not a problem, though I'm attaching a copy of the sheet I've been using as well. It's incomplete, has no options yet, but it gives, so far, the basic breakpoints I've shown so far, only adding the ability to input your own values for stats. Right now it only works for Haste (and Damage, obviously), but I'll update it to include Crit and Hit when I can.
Speaking of which, I've come up with a way to model the two which makes calculations significantly easier. It's... sneaky. I'll post my findings when I get a chance, but I'm currently in the middle of making a first-draft write-up of what I've done so far for the TTT article.
This covers the neck slot and both trinkets. You'd get procs from the neck once every 50 seconds or so, the trinket one every 30 seconds with a IS MF whatever rotation, and since both of the procs can crit, it'd charge your lightning capacitor up even faster. Does anyone have any suggestions for equipment/consumables that could possibly add to the fun?
This covers the neck slot and both trinkets. You'd get procs from the neck once every 50 seconds or so, the trinket one every 30 seconds with a IS MF whatever rotation, and since both of the procs can crit, it'd charge your lightning capacitor up even faster. Does anyone have any suggestions for equipment/consumables that could possibly add to the fun?
You could try [Stormchops], though the proc is completely random. Not sure if it even necessarily hits your target, and I think you'd need to be in melee range.
Hello. Just found this forum and trying to digest it all. I am just getting serious into raiding moonkin and have fallen inlove with it, so kinda green as far as everything I need to know and not nearly the mathmatician or tech savy as many here are, so excuse my ignorance. However, I do have some questions:
1. Confused on the relic rotation with the new GCD. I was reading it can recool the GCD therefore slowing DPS, but someone stated adding it after spell is cast (using a MF, SFx3, Wrath rotation via spreedsheet recommendation with my latency another question down with this) use moonfire with moonfire relic then equip my starfire relic, on 3rd cast switch to wrath relic then switch to moonfire relic after i cast my wrath or does the GCD actual result in DPS loss or am I messing this up completely as far as prime efficiency.
2. A several part question The World of Warcraft Armory is my armory link sorry do not know html to minimize this or however I am suppose to. I just picked up the Lightning Cap. It is currently slowing my dps by switching it out with DMC:C. However with the new badge gear and 2.4spirit, should I stack more crit and spell damage with the cloth badge gear or continue on my spell damage and regen with leather (ofcourse still keeping hit around max as currently not fortunate enough to have elemental shaman with wrath totem or draeni period). If stacking more damage is the answer keep DMC:C till I get Hex trinket or Mag's trinket as my guild is not quite yet ready for T5 progression, but will be soon.
3. I am also using Adept Elixir and Elixir of Major Mage Blood; at which pt. or should I already be switching to Flask Blinding Light.
4. As stated in question 1, would a switch from MF, SFx3, Wrath rotation be more dps efficient than a MF, SFx4 rotation even if I get about 1sec overlay of after last SF is cast.
Again, my apologies if this has been resolved already still absorbing all of this info and applying it.
Your spreadsheet looks really helpful. I have 1 suggestion though, maybe you should have a column for +12 dmg as this is the alternative to the +10 hit , +10 crit gems.
Adoriele, when you describe 1392 as the breaking point, is it independent of buffs?
What I mean to say, is that I have 1240 spell damage unbuffed, and I run upwards of 1400 +dmg with raid buffs. Is it wise for me to be gemming for haste with epic gems? (I've already started using them.)
Btw, am I the only one dissappointed with Idol of the Unseen Moon? It's a 50% proc rate now, it seems (215 moonfires last run, 106 Lunar Grace buffs).
However, the buff is only useful for 8,5 seconds (first 1,5 is eaten by GCD). Which means that it's 2x140 on top of starfire (unless hasted, and one NG proc). If I'd wear the SF idol, I'd gain 6x55, which would net me 50 more dmg per 2 cycles. I'm ignoring idol swapping btw.
For Wrath spam it's worth it, since you can get off 5xWrath in 7,5 secs, which is 400 dmg per 2 cycles. But then, Wrath isn't always my spell of choice.
So even if the internal cd is gone, the procrate seems quite poor.
3. I am also using Adept Elixir and Elixir of Major Mage Blood; at which pt. or should I already be switching to Flask Blinding Light.
On this aspect, I only use the flask on progression fights where there may be lots of wiping (and thus rebuffing). Otherwise I find I get more bang-for-my-buck using Adepts Elixir and Elixir of Draenic Wisdom.
Adoriele, when you describe 1392 as the breaking point, is it independent of buffs?
What I mean to say, is that I have 1240 spell damage unbuffed, and I run upwards of 1400 +dmg with raid buffs. Is it wise for me to be gemming for haste with epic gems? (I've already started using them.)
The breaking point wouldn't care if you're buffed or not, though it does assume you have no gem in the slot before-hand (i.e. if you have a [Runed Crimson Spinel] in the slot already, you need 1404 damage, not 1392. So yes, if you believe you can consistently hit over 1400 spell damage after raid buffs, go ahead and make the switch.
Luntishara, as far as Idol swapping goes, any time you swap an idol (or a weapon, or an offhand), it activates a global cooldown the same as you would get from casting a spell. However, you can do these things even if you're already inside the GCD, so the best-case scenario would be a.)When casting instants, swap the idol just after the cast, and as close to the cast as possible. Note that Wrath is considered an instant for this purpose since its casting time (unless you're getting beaten on) is identical to or less than the GCD. b.)When casting a non-instant, swap the idol during the cast, with more than a GCD's worth of cast time left to go. If you follow those rules, you won't lose any casting time (or at least minimal) because of idol swapping. Do realize, though, that the effects of your idols are calculated when the spell lands, not when you begin casting. You will have to lose the benefit of the Starfire idol on at least one cast to gain the benefit of the next idol.
As to which consumables to use, well, Blinding Light is the best choice for any fight where you're not mana-starved (Looking at you, Sharkiss), but it comes with the drawback of being over double the cost in gold for a night's worth of raiding, assuming you're not dying every pull. Whether you can weather that cost is up to you.
Lastly, your rotation is similar either way, though Wrath is gonna eat mana. Personally I'd just let the DoTs fall off during the last SF tick, as you won't have to worry about Idol swapping as much.
Also now that Timbal's is out do any BT-geared moonkins have some idea of the trinket hierarchy? I could play with dr. boom but i'd rather hear if someone has raided with different trinkets or figured out a way to measure them. The ones i am especially interested in are the proc ones. Would be nice to see how they compare to crescent/hex head/guldam.
-Ashtongue
-Timbal's
-Darkmoon-Crusade
Wanted to share something I came across while I was writing up the Article that's coming, since it's not public yet. We'll take our previous equation giving the breakpoint at which Haste becomes useful,
If we instead add an arbitrary amount of Haste, I.E.
then the result becomes
What this means is that, to maximize DPS, once you've passed 1077 Spell damage, you need to increment both Spell Damage and Spell Haste equally, or in other words try to keep your Spell Haste equal to your Spell Damage minus 1077.
Adoriele,
Nice work, I too was noticing "leap frog" stats with haste or spell damage as you increased one, there'd be a point when the other became better. Glad you got the exact number.
I knew there's eventually a point when crit does become better, but from the looks of it on my spreadsheet, the gear doesn't exist :/
Adoriele,
Nice work, I too was noticing "leap frog" stats with haste or spell damage as you increased one, there'd be a point when the other became better. Glad you got the exact number.
I knew there's eventually a point when crit does become better, but from the looks of it on my spreadsheet, the gear doesn't exist :/
thanks again
Yeah, there's a breakpoint for everything, as all stats that affect our DPS (currently) have diminishing returns percentage-wise (I.E. may not depend on your current spell damage, but sure as hell does), so there will always be a point where adding one of a different stat is better than adding more of the same. A few pages back there was a demo of this about Haste and Crit, and I think also one about Damage and Hit, but the models back then were somewhat incomplete, so the true results are probably off a bit. I do plan on fleshing out more of the balance points, and I would be very surprised if the other stats didn't exhibit the same sort of behavior, I.E. wanting to keep the additions the same past a certain point.
What this means is that, to maximize DPS, once you've passed 1077 Spell damage, you need to increment both Spell Damage and Spell Haste equally, or in other words try to keep your Spell Haste equal to your Spell Damage minus 1077.
Interesting -- so that means if you're over 1077 ungemmed, you should pretty much never use a [Runed Crimson Spinel], since [Reckless Pyrestone] is better for red slots and potentially pure [Quick Lionseye] in yellow slots too. That's a lot more haste stacking than I would have expected.
I've got a pretty solid set of BT moonkin gear now, I'm going to try doing at least some of our next BT as moonkin and see how I can do. Lots of great info in this thread, thanks everyone.
04/07/08, 6:18 AM
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