Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet - Page 47

• Adoriele · 01/11/08, 12:45 PM

Thanks for the answers, guys. I figured that was the case, but wasn't sure just how much threat it was worth.

Vauk · 01/11/08, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by Lambach

D. Those show pretty much the same thing.
E. I'm not sure how dps at all matters. You did less dmg, how quickly you burn through your mana with a bad rotation is irrelevent.
G + H. You really know nothing about rogues. Which is ok, cause your guilds rogues also don't, so its expected.

Those 2 extra parses show my guild to be the equivalent of your guild in dps. I don't know where you get the nerve to bash my guild when yours isn't all that impressive at all. Your guild might be slightly better dps than my guild but the difference is so negligible that the fact you try to bash me about it speaks volumes.

Personal dps is all that matters, overall damage has too many variables to take into account (battle res, healing, stand and dps versus run and dps, etc, etc, etc). There are a variety of reasons why a person will have lower damage than another yet higher dps. Your breakdown of me doing great dps yet lower overall damage as "going out of mana quickly" is a typically stupid response. Please continue to take complex topics and reducing them to 5 word half sentences. The fact that you would write something like that without taking the 10 seconds to look at the parse and realize I was 4th on damage and died 88% of the way through the fight (Anetheron) or I was 6th on damage yet died 59% of the way through the fight shows you complete lack of thought.

G. How you get "rogues looking awful" from those parses I don't know. They did have some survival issues this week.
H. Rogue miss percentage on parses includes both hand. IE: 1% on main hand and X% on off hand. I forget the exact way it is done but i think a 6.5% miss rate on white damage is above hit cap for the main hand.

Yes I can see that I know nothing about rogues from these posts. Maybe the fact I said "I forget how it is done" tipped you off. I also love that you bash my rogues skill based on fights where they are doing jack shit. We have them killing Doomguards. I won't get into a big discussion about rogues because truthfully I don't know enough and I really don't care.

In conclusion, please continue to harp about being "a really advanced moonkin" when you are roughly the same progression as I am. Please continue to break down complex issues to tiny tidbits that your peasized brain can almost muster the skills to communicate effectively. Please continue to bash my guilds dps while the differences between our guilds is tiny. Please continue to both bash my knowledge of Rogues and the Rogues in my guild without knowing how we use them or any background on their experience. And most imporantly please continue to be a braggart and hypocrit.

PS. Below are more parses for you to belittle and disparage. Take a look at my dps and damage and continue to "preach" to me about my lack of skill and/or knowledge.

Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

Vauk · 01/11/08, 3:05 PM

To everyone else,

I'd like to apologize for the /drama. Getting back to where we started.

You do not NEED to take IFF. It IS possible to play/use your moonkin as a main dps. That does not mean that IFF is bad. In fact it is an incredible raid debuff that any raid would be lucky to have.

Just don't let anyone tell you that if you don't take IFF you are wrong/nub. Choose to play your moonkin in the manner that you enjoy the most.

The way I look at my character is "I am a dps damage dealer with a couple added bonuses (battle res, innervate)." The fact that I can have moonkin buff or IFF doesn't play into why I play moonkin or why I get a raid spot. If your guild is a top 0.00000001% guild that Min/Max as much as possible then yes IFF is the proper way to go. Realistically however none of us are in those guild and if we were we wouldn't get to play a moonkin anyhow. Min/Maxing and moonkins in the same sentence is laughable. That is not to say I don't hone my strategy, tactics, gear, consumables, etc, etc as much as possible.

In conclusion,
In your travels around WoW both ingame and on forums, whether it be this one or the official forums, always be extremely careful of "rules" and statements written in stone.

Lambach · 01/11/08, 3:39 PM

Your rogues need to be fully hit capped, OH and MH, they are far from it. IFF would help you're raid A LOT. My raid has the top 8 or so players doing upwords of 1k dps, most of yours have maybe the top 2 doing that. You pretty much just over all don't know what your talking about man, and its very sad that you are trying to each others how to play incorrectly.

It looks like we are doing closing statements on the topic, so I'll take my go:

You will NEVER beat a good destro lock, fire mage, or melee player in a straight dps fight if you are both in about equal gear. Its mathmaticallly impossible. They have better talent trees, better mana regen, and tons of other abilities stacked in their favor.

Thats ok though, becuase thats not why the raid leader brought you to the raid. We are a hybrid class, and we bring to the raid many important buffs. IFF is one of these. It will up you're raid dps a TON. And if you add that to your own dps(ala' the ret pally thread), you become definatly worth your spot.

Although of course we want to maximize or dps when possible, there are many other tasks that will keep us from keeping up a maximum dps rotation. And it is important, that as a moonkin, you are willing and ready to make these personal dps sacrifices. If you dont, your spot is better held by a destro lock.

A) Keeping up IFF, bottom line, ive said it before, you have to do this. The raid dps buff is astonishing.
B) Keeping up IS on super fast or super hard hitting boss, especially when first learning them.
C) Switch out to heal when necessary. Its not the most efficient thing, especially in dps gear, but those crucial heals on yourself and other players will save the day.
D) Go full healing gear on certain encounters. Pretty much anything with big team dmg and minor dps race. I full heal on arch, aneth, najentus and gurtogg. While you're healing, you can also keep up IFF and IS!

If you want to maximise your personal dps and Epeen, then follow vauks advice. Your dps will be higher.

If you want to be a smart raider and a larger asset to your team, please, follow mine. Hopefully we are slowly getting a slightly better reputation, because we do have manythings that we bring to a raid, but unfortunatly players like Vauk spend their time rolling that in the mud.

doogless · 01/11/08, 4:02 PM

Originally Posted by Vauk

Wow Web Stats

In this Supremus parse, you cast Starfire (a 2.5 or 3.0 second spell, depending on Nature's Grace) 94 times. The Warlock below you cast Shadow Bolt (a 2.5 second spell) 69 times. I think the main thing that this parse shows is that the Warlock is really bad, or that you're really good. Either way, the reason you're beating people is because you're significantly outplaying them, either due to incompetence on their part or extreme skill on yours.

I didn't look through the other parses, but if that's an indicator of how you play in relation to your other DPSers, that's a big factor of why you're placing so high on your meters.

Spherus · 01/11/08, 4:42 PM

Not sure if this question really fits into the level of progression for a lot of people reading, but maybe:

Has anyone with actual experience using both 4/5 T5 and T6 seen a loss of dps in upgrading? My assumption based on some theorycrafting is that when you go to T6, as long as you keep +dmg more or less the same and emphasize crit a little more heavily, the returns on the gear will outweigh the dmg lost from the T5 bonus (with the additional bonus of dropping moonfire from the casting rotation). I can parse out some theoretical numbers, but I'd like to hear from someone who actually has tested this scenario.

I'm in a fairly unique situation in that I'm stepping into a balance spot for a guild that has been farming Illidan since early August. I don't have any real limitations on gear apart from the rarest drops, and it would actually be easier (I believe) to acquire T6 than T5.

Lambach · 01/11/08, 5:06 PM

If you can grab 4pc t6, and one of the better offpieces. (Hatefury, or illidari helm) You will only see a small dps downgrade.

The problem with the t5 bonus is it scales so well. So, lets assume your in all t6 gear(rings trinks, etc), but 4pc t5.
You are probably sitting at around 1800 or so fully buffed, with totem, spell dmg. Possibly more. The t5 by itself adds almost a 10% dmg increase for you.

Now the 5% crit adds.....about 5% dmg. Which is decent enough. However thats 5% loss of dmg by switchign set bonues.

So that'd mean the 4pces of tier gear that you upgrade from 5 > 6 would have to be an upgrade in stats large enough to increase your dps by 5%. The t6 pieces are nice, but not that nice. I'd say, more then likely its probably a 2% or so dmg decrease for you to not have the t5.

Which really inst that bad, considering you have a much higher chance to get the t6 then go farm the t5.

I'm very hopefull that sunwell gear will show a large enough dps increase in thats that we'll be able to finally drop our t5.

Spherus · 01/11/08, 5:28 PM

Thanks Lambach, that's basically what I had thought as well. I guess what I'm really getting at is this point:

Originally Posted by Lambach

Now the 5% crit adds.....about 5% dmg. Which is decent enough. However thats 5% loss of dmg by switchign set bonues.

With Nature's Guidance and some additional crit gear/gemming (since t6 effectively lowers your +hit gemming requirement to hit the cap by giving a base 32 more hit on the set, varied by what the offpiece ends up being) my expectation is not only that the 5% set bonus will add more than strictly 5% dps gain, but also that the different gemming and bonus 17 crit rating (again modified by what the offpiece ends up being) from T6 will make up for the loss.

Lambach · 01/11/08, 11:37 PM

To maximize dps I'd still really suggest spell dmg gems and enchants over crit. Especially if you're upping you're crit % with the bonus. If you just run you're gear (or proposed gear) through the spreadsheet you can test me on it. But after about 30% buffed crit you want as much dmg as possible.

Efejel · 01/12/08, 3:43 AM

Bear in mind when you're taking T6, you're (probably) taking it out of the hands of someone else who could use it. For those not already on T6 content, and/or those actively farming T5 while progressing through T6, I would strongly recommend as a Moonkin that you try to broker for priority on 4pc T5, agreeing to wait on T6 until it's rotting or nearly so. The spreadsheet & most experienced Moonkin seem to be saying that T6 just isn't that worthwhile on bosses, and is (maybe?) slightly better for trash? As always, YMMV.

Vandiego · 01/12/08, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Efejel

The spreadsheet & most experienced Moonkin seem to be saying that T6 just isn't that worthwhile on bosses, and is (maybe?) slightly better for trash?

So which druid that has T6 is actually saying this? I find T6 much better for bosses and trash. People keep going on and on about how T5 4 piece is better, but I have yet to see any WWS reports to see this claim come to fruition.

Here's my first night with 4 piece T6. Vandiego - WWS

Only fight I did poor on imo, was Najentus and that was due to myself and my group getting spines several times over which result in a lot of down time.

Ane: 1485
Kaz: 1380
Azg: 1160
Arc: 1084
Naj: 1164
Sup: 1131
Aka: 2747

Please feel free to comment.

Vandiego · 01/12/08, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Laqwanda

Lambach,

I wanted to know what a moonkin with exceptional gear does in his rotation just because i was curious.

I typically just SF, nothing else. Except on Flames of Azzinoth, I'll put up IS/MF on whichever one I'm not DPSing, do a cycle switch and repeat.

Lambach · 01/12/08, 1:44 PM

The issue is that 4pc t6 is "close" with stat upgrades and the like off teh actual pieces. But you cannot beat the10% dmg, thats huge, and its on every single starfire.

For you to really compare, you'd need to link those same fights, in the same gear, except 4pc t5. For the most part that looks a little better then my average dps on those fights when I'm able to full dps.

I think the best test, like for most classes, would be to link back to back Teron fights, one with t6 and one with t5.

Now t6 has some better mp5 and stam on it too, so there are reasons to take it, however I'd definatly say for any guild just starting to see t6 pieces roll in, to go ahead and pass for a bit(get t6 gloves first, cause t5 gloves suck ass). Then save your dkps or whatever you use for rings, or illidan staff, or whatever. Later, after a while when most of the major raiders, have thier t6, sure go ahead and pick it up and try it out. But I think itd be a mistake to take it from the other players for which it is a huge upgrade for.

Vandiego · 01/12/08, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by Lambach

The issue is that 4pc t6 is "close" with stat upgrades and the like off teh actual pieces. But you cannot beat the10% dmg, thats huge, and its on every single starfire.

For you to really compare, you'd need to link those same fights, in the same gear, except 4pc t5. For the most part that looks a little better then my average dps on those fights when I'm able to full dps.

I think the best test, like for most classes, would be to link back to back Teron fights, one with t6 and one with t5.

Now t6 has some better mp5 and stam on it too, so there are reasons to take it, however I'd definatly say for any guild just starting to see t6 pieces roll in, to go ahead and pass for a bit(get t6 gloves first, cause t5 gloves suck ass). Then save your dkps or whatever you use for rings, or illidan staff, or whatever. Later, after a while when most of the major raiders, have thier t6, sure go ahead and pick it up and try it out. But I think itd be a mistake to take it from the other players for which it is a huge upgrade for.

You keep saying this and have yet to prove it. I don't know if you have 4p T5 or not but I broke down your WWS and they don't even compare. All my off pieces save my weapons are Pre Hyjal so it should be a straight comparison.

While I'm on the subject of your parses, I have to say, you're the first druid I've ever seen die on Kaz. You do realize that druids can avoid mana burn by shifting to a form that doesn't have a mana bar. This isn't anything new and I never saw you go to cat or bear form, then you died. Not to mention your mana pool didn't last too long.

While I understand the merit of having 10% more damage on every starfire, assuming you're keeping your debuffs up. Which I don't do anymore. Compare my crit rates to anyone using T5, I'm anywhere from 20 to 40% ahead.

When your crit rate allows your average Starfire damage to surpass your 4p T5 damage. Its time to swap.

Since yours is the only other report I have up at the moment this is what I mean:

You casted a total of 45 Starfires, for a total of 170,474 damage, for an average damage of 3788.11
I casted a total of 1073 for a total of 4,206,465 damage, for an average damage of 3920.28

Now, this comparison isn't choice but its all we have atm. This is my average, which is somewhat skewed because it encompasses a whole raid, sometimes buffed, sometimes not, trash v boss, etc... So its not a great sample.

However, this will give you an idea of the thought process I used when deciding its time to upgrade.

Also, you'll need to consider your damage per minute, using realistic cast sequences, not the perfect MF, IS, SFx3 timer. Break down your combat log see how long its really taking you to cast one starfire to the next. I can guarantee its not 2.5 or 3.0 seconds.

Gwynthan · 01/13/08, 5:45 AM

It seems people forget the huge DPS boost we get from crit not only via Vengeance but also NG, and NG shines even more when we don't have to worry about rotations with IS/MF. Let's face it, not having to rely on IS or MF being up at all times is favored a lot due to sheer simplicity. As Vandiego pointed out cast sequences involving 4pc T5 bonus are far from optimal and weaving haste in (even NG procs) makes things worse.
I think 5% extra crit plus its benefits (especially on NG) plus better base stats are quite a lot better to have than the clumsy 10% increased dmg.
Don't get me wrong, 4pc T5 is very nice to have as soon as you get your hands on it and I wouldn't recommend dropping it before 4pc T6 since it actually adds a lot of damage even on top of just base stats upgrades single T6 pieces are. But at the end of the day you'll do more damage in (4+pc) T6.

As a side remark: Even with 4pc T5 being a very good bonus it's nowhere close to being as powerful as 3pc T2 used to be simply for the fact that you can't make up the huge stat and passives loss from having 4 of your major item budget slots hogged by it, whereas you could keep just 3 of the 8 T2 pieces quite easily along with T3 or whatever.