Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet - Page 48

Vauk · 01/13/08, 7:03 AM

I'm sorry... I really tried to leave well enough alone but it is just too tempting.

Originally Posted by Lambach

Your rogues need to be fully hit capped, OH and MH, they are far from it. IFF would help you're raid A LOT. My raid has the top 8 or so players doing upwords of 1k dps, most of yours have maybe the top 2 doing that. You pretty much just over all don't know what your talking about man, and its very sad that you are trying to each others how to play incorrectly.

Lambach here is a direct quote from the Roguecraft 101 thread in these forums:

Auto-attack, 0/5 Precision: 442
Auto-attack, 5/5 Precision: 363
Special, 0/5 Precision: 142
Special, 5/5 Precision: 64

.
.
.

The hit and expertise caps are NOT magic numbers that every rogue [or any rogue] must reach. There is no special benefit to being capped with either stat.

The fact you try to talk like an authority about things you quite clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Could you please point out to me how a rogue is expected to get 363 hit rating to make both MH and OH fully hit capped. The "You pretty much just over all don't know what your talking about man" part of your post is what makes it a classic. Here is a hint... if you are going to say someone else doesn't know what he is talking about, make sure that you haven't written something completely bogus and bullshit 2 sentences before.

The fact that you have linked one parse which was mediocre at best and continue to knock my guild's dps would be laughable if you weren't being such a complete hypocrite. I've linked 4 Azgalor parses all around the same dps as your guild.

The other thing that I don't understand is that even if my guild's dps was as poor as you seem to think. In a "good guild" wouldn't I get top 5 instead of top 3? Doesn't that make my point that a Moonkin can compete on dps? From the look at your parse I would be top 3 in your guild as well.

Originally Posted by Lambach

You will NEVER beat a good destro lock, fire mage, or melee player in a straight dps fight if you are both in about equal gear. Its mathmaticallly impossible. They have better talent trees, better mana regen, and tons of other abilities stacked in their favor.

Originally Posted by Lambach

Hopefully we are slowly getting a slightly better reputation, because we do have manythings that we bring to a raid, but unfortunatly players like Vauk spend their time rolling that in the mud.

I am trying to understand your reasoning behind this statement. Technically it is right because under ideal circumstances with everyone geared to the max (IE: a mage full tier 6, a moonkin 4/5 t5 plus tier 6 everything else) and 2 players of the same skill then yes a mage wins. However that requires full min/maxing that just isn't realistic under ordinary circumstances. Until that point though there is absolutely nothing holding Moonkins back from at least competing with the classes you mention. As with everything they will be better on some bosses and we will be better at some.

The reason I am trying to understand your statement is that "Hopefully we are slowly getting a slightly better reputation" and <sarcasm>Moonkins can't compete with dps</sarcasm> don't belong in the same sentence. It highlights your hypocrisy that you can make airs about bringing moonkin's reputation arround and then in the same post bash us. Yes we are hybrids, yes we can buff, YES WE CAN DO ENOUGH DAMAGE TO JUSTIFY OUR RAID SPOT as something other than a glorified buffer.

In conclusion,

You have seemed to have conceded that I am a good dpser. My guild seems to be at least the equivalent to your guild in dps and even if they aren't I would still easily be top 5 in your guilds dps. Meaning a Moonkin druid CAN compete with destro locks and mages. Your talk about not knowing what I am talking about shows your hypocrisy and maybe instead of knocking what I write as the ravings of a lunatic "epeen" dpswhore you can go crawl back under whatever rock you were hiding under on "Cenarion Circle". ROFL.

Vauk · 01/13/08, 7:09 AM

Originally Posted by doogless

In this Supremus parse, you cast Starfire (a 2.5 or 3.0 second spell, depending on Nature's Grace) 94 times. The Warlock below you cast Shadow Bolt (a 2.5 second spell) 69 times. I think the main thing that this parse shows is that the Warlock is really bad, or that you're really good. Either way, the reason you're beating people is because you're significantly outplaying them, either due to incompetence on their part or extreme skill on yours.

I didn't look through the other parses, but if that's an indicator of how you play in relation to your other DPSers, that's a big factor of why you're placing so high on your meters.

Right you are...

Personally I don't think it is a lack/abundance of skill rather how hard we were trying. I have to admit that I was pretty riled up by certain posts on this forum so I was probably 100% attention rather than thier 95% attention.

Anyone who has ever done Supremus knows what a bitch it is to caster dps him. Trying hard versus normal trying probably accounts for the disparity.

Cheers.

Vauk · 01/13/08, 7:20 AM

Originally Posted by Vandiego

You keep saying this and have yet to prove it.

Welcome to my world.

Originally Posted by Vandiego

While I'm on the subject of your parses, I have to say, you're the first druid I've ever seen die on Kaz. You do realize that druids can avoid mana burn by shifting to a form that doesn't have a mana bar. This isn't anything new and I never saw you go to cat or bear form, then you died. Not to mention your mana pool didn't last too long.

Ok, I'm afk to go kill my raid leader. I in fact did not realize that I could do that and stupidly took the advice of my raid leader. I blame him, rofl.

Meh learn something new everyday.

Maybe we can move the thread away from Lambach's meandering rules on how to play moonkin and back towards what it was meant for. Theorycrafting moonkins.

I am interested in the relationships between t5 bonus and t6 stats. Unlike others I would like some more discussion about it before writing a blanket statement that is more appropriate for the official wow forums.

Vandiego · 01/13/08, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by Vauk

Ok, I'm afk to go kill my raid leader. I in fact did not realize that I could do that and stupidly took the advice of my raid leader. I blame him, rofl.
.

I was referring to Lambach actually I didn't break down your parses. Kind of ironic if you ask me. But seriously how could you not know that being in a feral form prevents mana drained? Did you know that shapeshifting prevents you from being mind controlled? Or that it breaks polymorph effects?

Efejel · 01/13/08, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by Vandiego

Did you know that shapeshifting prevents you from being mind controlled?

Isn't it more specifically shapeshifting to a feral form? I'm pretty sure I've been MC'ed in Moonkin, but I may be thinking of boss abilities that break rule rather than player MCs.

Pyros · 01/13/08, 4:06 PM

Originally Posted by Vandiego

I was referring to Lambach actually I didn't break down your parses. Kind of ironic if you ask me. But seriously how could you not know that being in a feral form prevents mana drained? Did you know that shapeshifting prevents you from being mind controlled? Or that it breaks polymorph effects?

You can be MCed by mobs just fine even in shapeshifting forms. I get MCed quite often in tree form, have been in cat/bear, I'll assume it's the same for moonkins. It does prevent mana burning/draining and makes you immune to sheep tho.

Vauk · 01/13/08, 4:29 PM

Originally Posted by Vandiego

I was referring to Lambach actually I didn't break down your parses. Kind of ironic if you ask me. But seriously how could you not know that being in a feral form prevents mana drained? Did you know that shapeshifting prevents you from being mind controlled? Or that it breaks polymorph effects?

Of course, I took the advice of my uninformed Raid Leader who thought that if you missed timed one of them you'd "blow up" by going OOM when you switch. Should have just tested it. heh.

Nelbla · 01/14/08, 12:54 AM

My first post, first off let me say thanks, this spreadsheet is very cool. Guildmate of mine got a new pair of leather casting leggings from the timed event in ZA "Elunite Imbued Leggings". I dont think they are in the spreadsheet as of yet, nor do i see the loot on any site excep t on wowwiki

ZA Timed Event Loot

Thanks and happy booming.

Saraya · 01/14/08, 1:42 AM

Originally Posted by Pyros

It does prevent mana burning/draining and makes you immune to sheep tho.

Only when you're fighting simple jesters.

Here's a handy dandy table

		Poly	Mana burn		Mind Control	Banish	Sap	Hibernate
Caster		O	O		O		X	O	X
Travel		X	O		X		X	X	O
Cat/Bear		X	X		X		X	X	O
Tree		X	O		X		O	X	X
Moonkin		X	O		O		X	O	X

However, bosses get to break rules whenever the devs want them to. The tree form entries are mostly guesses since people never go tree form in PVP.

Nelbla
Nice find! I guess Blizzard does want us to wear pants after all!

Idyar · 01/14/08, 3:37 AM

Hey guys the mages and shamans both have nice stat to dps breakdowns for different levels of gear and one of my friends is looking to try out Moonkin and is looking for something along the same lines.

Like 1 int = 1 dps
1 damage = 1.5 dps
1 crit rating = .5 dps

I know the numbers scale and change at different gear levels but some general ideas on the value of the stats in relation to each other and the value of the stats to dps would be a great help thanks.

Goedel · 01/14/08, 5:56 AM

I also got the Elunite Imbued Leggings in Zul'Aman and was taken totally by surprise seeing them in the chest, since I'd been thorough about making lists of all items of interest for all specs. Nobody had them in Atlas Loot, and they weren't on wowhead, and group members enjoyed joking about a world first while being pretty confident it was at least a server first. Somebody did find them on another site (thottbot I think) with a note that they'd dropped for somebody earlier that day.

This of course came about a week after I'd finally given in, not seeing moonkin pants on my horizon unless I took a second pair of t5 legs (not happening) or started doing arenas (with a long way to go), and crafted (and gemmed and enchanted) spellstrike pants. I equipped them, soulbinding that 1500g or so, but hadn't yet raided with them.

It's also a tough spot because the [Elunite Imbued Leggings] aren't strictly better than [Spellstrike Pants] in pure dps. I'll probably use them in many cases for the extra armor and stamina, but I expect to keep both around for a while, as if my bags and bank weren't already stuffed.

In case it takes a while for that item link to go live, I'll come back and provide the stats....

Elunite Imbued Leggings
353 armor
30 sta
40 int
(r), (y), (b): 2 m/5
31 spell crit rating
46 damage/healing

So, assuming Blessing of Kings and talents for 25% int -> dmg and 10% int -> m/5, and canceling the socket bonuses, that's a gain of 985 armor in moonkin form, 132 health, 528 mana, 5.6 m/5, 8.8 dmg, and 5 crit, at a cost of 22 hit.
(edited: I forgot Dreamstate the first time.)

Vandiego · 01/14/08, 9:12 AM

Originally Posted by Efejel

Isn't it more specifically shapeshifting to a feral form? I'm pretty sure I've been MC'ed in Moonkin, but I may be thinking of boss abilities that break rule rather than player MCs.

@Efejel: Yes during the cast you SS to a feral form to prevent being MC'd.

@Pyros: This is only in PVP. But you raise a good point though. This is why I never use Moonkin form on P4 of Kael. Not being able to be polyed can be a very bad thing. As I cycloned our MT once. It was a wipe, kind of funny, but annoying all the same.

Gwynthan · 01/14/08, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Saraya

...bosses get to break rules whenever the devs want them to. ...

Unless that card gets played susceptibility to certain abilities depends on which kind of form you shift into: Namely
moonkin count as humanoid (caster form obviously is humanoid, too),
bear, cat, and travel forms count as beast (flightform as well probably),
and last but not least tree of life as elemental.
So it depends on which kind the CC ability is defined to work on and all shifted forms explicitly are immune to polymorph.
So trees get banished, cats scare beast'ed etc.

Mana burn doesn't look at that, it just needs a mana bar to work, so since we plain lose our real mana bar in bear/cat it can't touch us then (the mana bar some addons produce isn't visible to an NPC or player after all).
And it's enough to shift just before an ability lands.

doogless · 01/14/08, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Gwynthan

Or I fail at reading columns (not unlikely).

The formatting didn't come out right. If you work out where each X and O should be, everything is correct, it just didn't come out properly in the quote box he made.

Bluefish · 01/14/08, 1:59 PM

Lets add some numbers to the Imp FF debate.

I am a moderately T5-geared Rogue using a subpar PvP mainhand. In my typical party, with normal FF up, the Rogue Gear Sheet reads my DPS as 1491. With Imp FF toggled on, it reads 1526. That's 35 DPS for me alone. In our raids, my guild typically also has a DPS Warrior, a Feral Druid, 2 Hunters, an Enhancement Shaman, and another Rogue. I'm not going to dig up their spreadsheets, but lets be honest about the value of Imp FF: It is a lot of raid DPS. I understand there are harsh sustainability, threat, or damage sacrifices that have to be made to pick it up, but when I plug a Druid into the Balance spreadsheet with my same gear level (4-pc T5) and optimal party, and take 3 points out of Moonfury to pick up Imp FF, he only loses 88 DPS -- I'm pretty sure I can say that's a raid DPS increase.

If you have to justify your raid slot based on personal DPS, talk to your guild. If your objective is the highest raid DPS possible -- the number that kills bosses -- spec Imp FF.

Also, I dunno if you guys noticed, Insect Swarm makes the boss miss 2% more. Some fights, this could be unnecessary. Some fights this could be critical. Taking a slight DPS hit for an important raid debuff is par for the course for every spec in the game, except us bastard Rogues