Hey guys, so once we get 4pc t6, its just straight spam SF correct? Currently, the spreadsheet lists our highest dps cloak as the healer one off Illidan, is anyone actually using this? Also, does anyone know of any plans to update the spreadsheet to incorporate more of the Sunwell weapons/gear?
0.80c
-Added addt'l 2.4 items, especially badge & Sunwell loots, and epic haste gems
-Updated the base in-combat mp5 calcs to account for the 2.4 spirit changes
INNERVATE CALCULATION NOT YET UPDATED
No other substantial changes, though hopefully some minor bugs I'm forgetting the specifics of have been fixed.
WTB: Someone to update innervate calcs & someone to add gem functionality for cloaks so I don't have to.
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
Hey guys, so once we get 4pc t6, its just straight spam SF correct? Currently, the spreadsheet lists our highest dps cloak as the healer one off Illidan, is anyone actually using this? Also, does anyone know of any plans to update the spreadsheet to incorporate more of the Sunwell weapons/gear?
No, starfire spam is not optimal whatsoever if you're other gear doesn't support it. Please use the spreadsheet at least to see what that says is the best DPS rotation and go from there.
Also realize that certain trinkets can be situationally viable, such as timbals. On Kalecgos, where Im decursing, timbals is great as I always have my DoTs running while decursing. Ive been playing around with it a lot simply because Im NOT using my optimum casting rotation as Sunwell bosses hit fast and hard, so even tho IS is less dps, 2% less hit on a brutallus stomped tank can make a big difference. And honestly, moonkin utility is why they are brought to raid, as we simply cannot compete with fully geared destro locks, warglaive rogues, and good BM hunters (unless I get some great strings of crits)
No, starfire spam is not optimal whatsoever if you're other gear doesn't support it. Please use the spreadsheet at least to see what that says is the best DPS rotation and go from there.
When you say gear to support it, what do you mean? Mana regen? Crit rate? Haste? Ideally, our goal gear wise is to be able to support using only starfire for max dps correct?
And after playing with the new spreadsheet, putting in all my items, the highest DPS i hit was 2058.8, and the top rotation was SF only... anyone else out there get any higher numbers?
When you say gear to support it, what do you mean? Mana regen? Crit rate? Haste? Ideally, our goal gear wise is to be able to support using only starfire for max dps correct?
That's a goal? The goal for us is to maximize DPS with the gear we have (and provide raid utility, which may include iFF and IS), not to gear around a specific spell rotation. Starfire spam may be an easier rotation to maintain, but that doesn't mean that achieving a gearset for which it is the highest DPS is the epitome of Moonkin raiding.
Given the example from earlier in this thread, at 1500 spell damage you'd need (making some basic assumptions here) 460 Haste in order for dropping Moonfire from your rotation to be higher DPS than leaving it in. More spell damage may lower that point, but I'm nowhere near that point in my math study yet.
Speaking of, I've got most of the Hit equations done, then I'll work on crit. After that I think I'll have enough to publish the article without too much problem, so I'm probably gonna let that be the release for it. As a preview, though, I've found the following to be true:
The benefit of Hit relies heavily on your crit rate because of Nature's Grace. Given a crit rate of 25% for SF, which would be 16% character sheet, and Balance of Power, Hit becomes better than Spell Damage after 560, rather than the 606 I mentioned earlier. The more crit you have, the lower this number becomes. As for gemming, given Rare gems, the point at which 8 Spell Hit outweighs 9 Spell damage is 692 spell damage.
Ok I just wanted to throw this out there, it looks like to me the best trinket selection until Skull of Guldan is Qaug's eye and Hex Shrunken Head. Every time I replace Quage's Eye with ANYTHING my DPS lowers by about 20. Is this for real? What is a better option than Quage's Eye? I thought Darkmoon Card Crusade would be better (Blessing's Deck) but it comes out about 10 DPS lower than Quage's.
The benefit of Hit relies heavily on your crit rate because of Nature's Grace. Given a crit rate of 25% for SF, which would be 16% character sheet, and Balance of Power, Hit becomes better than Spell Damage after 560, rather than the 606 I mentioned earlier. The more crit you have, the lower this number becomes.
I'd be very interested to hear the rationale for this, since it doesn't seem intuitive to me. I would have thought that since "If you can't hit you can't crit" is known to be false, the values of crit and hit would be independent of each other.
I'd be very interested to hear the rationale for this, since it doesn't seem intuitive to me. I would have thought that since "If you can't hit you can't crit" is known to be false, the values of crit and hit would be independent of each other.
I've mentioned before that I'm assuming a two-roll system for spellcasts, as it's the theory I hold with.
I'd be very interested to hear the rationale for this, since it doesn't seem intuitive to me. I would have thought that since "If you can't hit you can't crit" is known to be false, the values of crit and hit would be independent of each other.
While I don't have the complex equations that Adoriele does, I can at least explain the premise of this.
Every time your starfire/wrath/moonfire is a critical strike, you trigger nature's grace. As your crit rate goes up, the chance that any given spell will trigger nature's grace, also increases.
As your hit rate goes up, more of your spells will be hits. Each given spell that hits an enemy (leaving out insect swarm here since it cannot crit) has a chance to be a critical strike. Spells that do not hit a given enemy, have no chance of rolling on the critical strike table. So the addage "If you can't hit, you can't crit" is pretty damn true.
Furthermore, as your hit rate rises more of your casts will trigger nature's grace. A spell that misses, cannot trigger nature's grace. Because it cannot crit.
I don't see why you believe that it's false. Melee is on a different roll system than casters, so perhaps you're confusing the two systems?
When you say gear to support it, what do you mean? Mana regen? Crit rate? Haste? Ideally, our goal gear wise is to be able to support using only starfire for max dps correct?
And after playing with the new spreadsheet, putting in all my items, the highest DPS i hit was 2058.8, and the top rotation was SF only... anyone else out there get any higher numbers?
I mean you can't say "I now have 4pT6, time to starfire spam" If it's not optimal for your gearset. Your weapon, rings, accessories, trinkets... Adoriele went into further detail about why 'starfire spam' isn't some optimal end goal if other rotations do more damage / utility.
Another interesting thing I just poked out of the math: Spell Haste is never, unless you are hit-capped, better than Hit. It's impossible for 1 point of Haste to be worth more than 1 point of Hit for DPS.
Melee is on a different roll system than casters, so perhaps you're confusing the two systems?
Ahh, that explains it. My apologies; I was indeed assuming that the melee roll system applied to casters as well. Sometimes the mechanics behind this game make no sense.
Obviously with hit rating costing only ~12.5 per 1% it'll be the most powerful stat, but only works until you're capped (and of course only on bosses, as on trash/adds the hit cap is 3-5% spell hit for level 70-72 mobs which is reachable without even trying). I would think this should've been common knoledge by now...
I just want to know, with the same gear, Rawr.Moonkin and Efejel spreadsheet, show me different results.
On the one side, in Rawr moonkin, I see that Spell Damage will better for my stuff, and on the other side in Efejel, haste allows me to DPS better.
I will hope to understand what is the better for my stuff, between Haste or Damage. Full buff, I have more than 1392 Spell, but I have always doubts on Haste VS Spell/Crit.
Thanks you very much.
PS : Sorry for mistakes, many times i don"t know if i must use "To + verb" or "verb+Ing" xD (Like to understand or Understanding) I hope you will understand.
I've been using the spreadsheet including the new version from today and found that with my gear 10Spell haste gives me the most "DPS" gain according to the charts.
However from reading the forums here I was under the impression that once you are around the 1500 point buffed the best possible gem if you aren't going for socket bonus is the 5spellhaste6dmg gem.
Kinda confused... also considering that yellow gems are so much easier for me to get than orange ones as a moonkin.
Obviously with hit rating costing only ~12.5 per 1% it'll be the most powerful stat, but only works until you're capped (and of course only on bosses, as on trash/adds the hit cap is 3-5% spell hit for level 70-72 mobs which is reachable without even trying). I would think this should've been common knoledge by now...
Not necessarily. For example it costs less for 1% haste than for 1% crit, and yet there's a breakpoint (granted, it's a very high breakpoint) where if you have enough haste, 1 crit is worth more for DPS. This breakpoint simply doesn't exist for Haste vs. Hit. Or, more precisely, it exists, but is impossible to reach (you'd need ~125% chance to hit).
I just want to know, with the same gear, Rawr.Moonkin and Efejel spreadsheet, show me different results.
Trust the spreadsheet until Rawr b14 gets released. Some equations in the moonkin model are flawed in the current release(b13.1).
And your English is fine.
Originally Posted by Elaith
Ok I just wanted to throw this out there, it looks like to me the best trinket selection until Skull of Guldan is Qaug's eye and Hex Shrunken Head. Every time I replace Quage's Eye with ANYTHING my DPS lowers by about 20. Is this for real? What is a better option than Quage's Eye? I thought Darkmoon Card Crusade would be better (Blessing's Deck) but it comes out about 10 DPS lower than Quage's.
Where are you getting these numbers? If it's Rawr, see the comment above. If it's the spreadsheet, that is very weird indeed because Ef doesn't even calculate the proc on Quag's. Crusade would almost definitely be better.
Trust the spreadsheet until Rawr b14 gets released. Some equations in the moonkin model are flawed in the current release(b13.1).
And your English is fine.
Where are you getting these numbers? If it's Rawr, see the comment above. If it's the spreadsheet, that is very weird indeed because Ef doesn't even calculate the proc on Quag's. Crusade would almost definitely be better.
I got my numbers from the spreadsheet. Even with just replacing quag's with crusade Qaug's came out on top by about 10 DPS. It's really VERY odd. I'm not sure what to believe right now hehe.
I got my numbers from the spreadsheet. Even with just replacing quag's with crusade Qaug's came out on top by about 10 DPS. It's really VERY odd. I'm not sure what to believe right now hehe.
Crusade has 0 stats. It's only on the spreadsheet as a placeholder to remind yourself that's what you're using in that slot. Setting your trinket to "Darkmoon Card: Crusade" will show you the same DPS as setting your trinket to "None". You need to guesstimate the average spell damage DC:C will provide, and input it in the custom field (which is conveniently near the trinket section...)
The main factors to consider (as I understand it--I don't have a DC:C) when estimating the average dmg value is the the fight duration (longer = closer to 80) and the amount of interruption to casting by virtue of fight mechanics (don't use DC:C if there's frequent or periodic interrupts > ~5-6 sec).
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
Crusade has 0 stats. It's only on the spreadsheet as a placeholder to remind yourself that's what you're using in that slot. Setting your trinket to "Darkmoon Card: Crusade" will show you the same DPS as setting your trinket to "None". You need to guesstimate the average spell damage DC:C will provide, and input it in the custom field (which is conveniently near the trinket section...)
The main factors to consider (as I understand it--I don't have a DC:C) when estimating the average dmg value is the the fight duration (longer = closer to 80) and the amount of interruption to casting by virtue of fight mechanics (don't use DC:C if there's frequent or periodic interrupts > ~5-6 sec).
Just as a side note to that, Rawr.Moonkin will model DC:C as a straight 80 spell damage trinket. This may or may not be accurate, based on the length of the fight and the periods of interruption. It's something for you to note when you're doing trinket selection.
0.80c
-Added addt'l 2.4 items, especially badge & Sunwell loots, and epic haste gems
-Updated the base in-combat mp5 calcs to account for the 2.4 spirit changes
INNERVATE CALCULATION NOT YET UPDATED
No other substantial changes, though hopefully some minor bugs I'm forgetting the specifics of have been fixed.
WTB: Someone to update innervate calcs & someone to add gem functionality for cloaks so I don't have to.
One very interesting thing I've noticed is that 4t5 + 4t6 is better than your default best sunwell gear O.o
One very interesting thing I've noticed is that 4t5 + 4t4 is better than your default best sunwell gear O.o
... I'd expect a run-for-money from 4T5 + 4T6, but 4T4? How on earth is a cooldown reduction on Innervate, especially using the old calculations, anywhere near as good, especially since anyone with a shot at Sunwell gear shouldn't be having mana issues at all...
04/17/08, 7:05 AM
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