Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet - Page 49

Ailetha · 01/14/08, 2:23 PM

Hey there,

I just wanted to say thanks for putting this spreadsheet together! I am normally resto. It has been a huge help for me in adjusting my offspec set and figuring out which of my pieces were garbage and which were not.

We killed Illidan the first time a couple of weeks ago and are doing 'alt runs' on off days, starting the game over til Sunwell is out on PTR. I decided i wanted to go Boomkin for the runs instead of bringing an alt, and this spreadsheet has helped me prepare extremely well for it. The WWS parses posted by various people in this thread have been a great help as well. I learned a shitload.

Thanks! Much appreciative of that.

Vandiego · 01/14/08, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by Bluefish

Lets add some numbers to the Imp FF debate.

If you have to justify your raid slot based on personal DPS, your raid leaders don't know crap. If your objective is the highest raid DPS possible -- the number that kills bosses -- spec Imp FF.

Also, I dunno if you guys noticed, Insect Swarm makes the boss miss 2% more. Some fights, this could be unnecessary. Some fights this could be critical. Taking a slight DPS hit for an important raid debuff is par for the course for every spec in the game, except us bastard Rogues

I shortened it up because I don't like linking long quotes. Anyhow, if you could please tell me the amount of melee misses you get on a boss that aren't dodged or parried. If you could link me your WWS reports.

The reason I'm asking is simply because I broke down our last fight for all our melee and hunters. It seems the only thing truly having an issue with misses are the hunters pets. If you look at it as a whole adding 1 or 2 white hits per person at the most seems a bit trite. Especially when I would be giving up points in subtlety as threat is a very serious problem late in the game.

Bluefish · 01/14/08, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by Vandiego

If you look at it as a whole adding 1 or 2 white hits per person at the most seems a bit trite.

Politely, it hardly matters how it seems -- I'm presenting the math from the most reputable Rogue spreadsheet.

You don't have to drop Subtlety; you can take the points out of anything. Even Moonfury still leads to greater raid DPS.

Kael
Rage
Tidewalker

Zephyra · 01/14/08, 5:42 PM

I understand the infinite pursuit to do more raid dps, but this is a game and everyone enjoys a different play style. Both sides have very credible points and there isn't a right or wrong answer when playing a video game when enjoyment is concerned (which is the whole point right?)

Now, my guild has vashj down and we are gunning for vael. I'm excited to start BT/MH and haven't done a whole lot of research on the content/gear of it all. I'm curious if there is any research anyone has done or knows of regarding a hierarchy of gear to take. Something all boomkin could use when a piece of loot drops in making a decision on whether to bid on it. If I can help it, i'd rather not take a sidegrade if another class could benefit more from it. I'm aware some of it all depends on where your current gear level is at, but a lot of class forums use an EP rating system of some kind to rate the upgrade. I am unfamiliar with this system or where to look for such a list of what gear is better over what. Anyone have ideas?

Bluefish · 01/14/08, 5:59 PM

Originally Posted by Zephyra

I understand the infinite pursuit to do more raid dps, but this is a game and everyone enjoys a different play style.

That's not the purpose of this forum. The theorycrafting, progression-based contingent of Balance Druids seems to have dismissed IFF as a responsibility. That's a mistake.

Zephyra · 01/14/08, 6:39 PM

I agreed with you that IFF is better for the raid. I believe the boomkin several posts up agreed as well. However, it is a game intended to be fun, and you telling what another person you don't know what he has to do is nuts. Besides, anyone that is hardcore enough for that sort of philosophy to apply would have already downed Illidan by now.

Dothorio · 01/14/08, 6:59 PM

For me, fun is about beating bosses.

Having 3/3 IFF is a distinct advantage for our entire physical DPS corps along with a TPS increase for our tanks (and therefore a raid DPS increase). These things all help kill a boss in a unique way that no other class can. I find that "fun".

Nurru · 01/14/08, 7:06 PM

Originally Posted by Zephyra

I agreed with you that IFF is better for the raid. I believe the boomkin several posts up agreed as well. However, it is a game intended to be fun, and you telling what another person you don't know what he has to do is nuts. Besides, anyone that is hardcore enough for that sort of philosophy to apply would have already downed Illidan by now.

You seem to be on the wrong forum if you feel this way.

Allanon · 01/14/08, 8:55 PM

Originally Posted by Zephyra

Now, my guild has vashj down and we are gunning for vael. I'm excited to start BT/MH and haven't done a whole lot of research on the content/gear of it all. I'm curious if there is any research anyone has done or knows of regarding a hierarchy of gear to take. Something all boomkin could use when a piece of loot drops in making a decision on whether to bid on it. If I can help it, i'd rather not take a sidegrade if another class could benefit more from it. I'm aware some of it all depends on where your current gear level is at, but a lot of class forums use an EP rating system of some kind to rate the upgrade. I am unfamiliar with this system or where to look for such a list of what gear is better over what. Anyone have ideas?

Yeah its hard to find a good resource for this. Your priority should be 4x T5, something that is impossible for many to get who rerolled moonkin in progressed guilds, and get the random cloth drops like boots/bracer/belt and some decent rings if you can. If that's gonna take awhile get as much from badges as you can. The gloves own especially much imo. The items that I'm waiting for along with probably most other raiding moonkins are Illidan staff/trinket/head, a couple ZA items (new cape, trinket) and the damn RoS boots that never drop.

Anyway my advice is to look at what drops you have access to on your loot addon and just make a list, plug them into the spreadsheet and order them by dps increase. Somebody needs to update druidwiki or the forums with a good best-worst item/slot list that includes BT/MH, because armory is pretty useless...

here is the only gear list i've seen: The Druid Wiki � Balance Druid Equipment List (BC edition)

edit: dont forget you need 151 hit with 2/2 balance of power and no elem shammy

Xantcha · 01/14/08, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by Vandiego

The reason I'm asking is simply because I broke down our last fight for all our melee and hunters. It seems the only thing truly having an issue with misses are the hunters pets. If you look at it as a whole adding 1 or 2 white hits per person at the most seems a bit trite. Especially when I would be giving up points in subtlety as threat is a very serious problem late in the game.

You must be looking at a different raid than I.
Looking at your WWS -> Kaz'rogal kill.
1x Enh. Shaman
2x Rogue
1x Fury Warrior
2x Hunter pet's
1x Tank
All of these players would benefit fully from IFF.

I calculated approximately 120 DPS worth of white attacks missed from not taking up IFF.
This does not include extra dps from higher tank threat, and dps from missed procs and rage gains.

Honestly, if you are threat capped. Subtlety is probably your biggest dps increasing talent, it would be silly to drop points from subtlety to put into IFF where you have other possible talents to drop.

Points can possible be dropped from any tier 5+ balance talents or intensity.
If your not already chain potting, you can theoretically drop mana talents and lose little to no dps at all. (increased tank threat vs IFF every 40 seconds).

Efejel · 01/15/08, 5:53 AM

Originally Posted by Bluefish

...but when I plug a Druid into the Balance spreadsheet with my same gear level (4-pc T5) and optimal party, and take 3 points out of Moonfury to pick up Imp FF, he loses less than 88 DPS, meaning raid DPS increases.

Did you factor in the 4-5% DPS he loses by keeping FF up on the mob, regardless of Imp or not, vs. allowing the Feral to do it on spare GCDs mana free?

Vandiego · 01/15/08, 6:55 AM

Originally Posted by Xantcha

You must be looking at a different raid than I.
Looking at your WWS -> Kaz'rogal kill.
1x Enh. Shaman
2x Rogue
1x Fury Warrior
2x Hunter pet's
1x Tank
All of these players would benefit fully from IFF.

I calculated approximately 120 DPS worth of white attacks missed from not taking up IFF.
This does not include extra dps from higher tank threat, and dps from missed procs and rage gains.

Honestly, if you are threat capped. Subtlety is probably your biggest dps increasing talent, it would be silly to drop points from subtlety to put into IFF where you have other possible talents to drop.

Points can possible be dropped from any tier 5+ balance talents or intensity.
If your not already chain potting, you can theoretically drop mana talents and lose little to no dps at all. (increased tank threat vs IFF every 40 seconds).

While I appreciate theory crafting, calculations, and breaking down WWS logs. By comparing I was referring to fights when we had iFF in the raid vs when we did not. We run two balance druids, the other Sylix, has iFF while I do not.

And our main tank, who sits for Hyjal with the exception of Archimonde on a regular basis, is already hit capped. The only way we've found to increase his threat is to stack BM hunters with him.

Anyhow, its way to late to be sitting here attempting to think.

Xantcha · 01/15/08, 7:52 AM

Realistically there are about 100 other variables other than IFF that can affect a player dps. Looking at two seperate encounters of the same boss, one with and one without IFF will tell you very little. Just refuting how you claim 3% hit is "just 1-2 white hits", spreading misinformation like it is fact is just not on in a "class mechanics forums".

If your tank is naturally hit capped, then he is probably wearing his threat gear.
He's sacrificing his survivability for hit, whereas it's probably a much better option for you to sacrificng a little dps for his threat.

FF =~ 1 gcd (or 1.5 seconds) every 40 seconds.
3.75% of "dps time" wasted on iFF. (assuming you time it perfectly, realistically you might reapply earlier or later depending on how you fit iFF into your rotation)

Bluefish · 01/15/08, 8:00 PM

Originally Posted by Efejel

Did you factor in the 4-5% DPS he loses by keeping FF up on the mob, regardless of Imp or not, vs. allowing the Feral to do it on spare GCDs mana free?

Using the default settings on your spreadsheet, I set a Balance Druid up with equal ilvl gear to myself, tweaking slots to be a bit more fair: T5 4-piece, T4 gloves, T5 trinkets, T5 weapon, Kara boots/neck, T6 belt. The DPS sheet reads 1310 DPS. Taking Dreamstate to 0/3 OR Moonglow to 0/3 results in no DPS loss whatsoever, as the optimal cycle is sustainable for over 10 minutes. I can understand not wanting to give up sustainability -- don't want to be helpless if Shadow Priest dies, don't want to pot for farm content, etc -- so I looked into DPS talents. Losing 1 point out of Moonfury and 2 points out of Balance of Power seems to be the best we can do, taking us down to 1242 DPS. Now we take that number and we reduce it by 5% to account for FF uptime. We reach 1179 DPS. This is a loss of 131 DPS.

Edit: This is all rewritten.

I goofed the value of Imp FF by double-applying Faerie Fire in the Rogue Spreadsheet. Here's some more-accurate numbers. The 3% hit value is worth 35 DPS (a far cry from the previously-stated 90, I'll edit that) to myself. My typical raid runs an Enhancement Shaman, 2x Rogues, 1 DPS Warriors, 2x Hunters, one Feral Druid. That means 70 DPS for us Rogues, ~20 DPS for the Hunters (fluctuates somewhat with who's BM). That's 90 DPS, a raid DPS deficit of 41 DPS versus the Moonkin just doing the damage themselves, with a Feral Druid, an Enhancement Shaman, and a DPS Warrior unaccounted for, plus the aggro of the MT. None of that includes anyone optimizing their gear for the 3% hit.

Aldriana's guess is ~200 DPS in a 25-man raid and about a 4% threat increase for the MT.

Maax · 01/16/08, 4:37 AM

Hi again. I am looking for some help deciding where to spend my badges. On our 2nd Kael kill recently I was lucky enough to get the Cloak and the T5 Chest. We are now moving on into Hyjal/BT. Here is my full gearset atm (slots I am looking for upgrades marked with a *):

[Nordrassil Headpiece] - [Veiled Noble Topaz] + [Chaotic Skyfire Diamond]
[Adornment of Stolen Souls]*
[Nordrassil Wrath-Mantle] - [Veiled Noble Topaz] + [Glowing Nightseye]
[Royal Cloak of the Sunstriders]
[Nordrassil Chestpiece] - [Runed Living Ruby]x3
[Crystalweave Bracers]* - [Runed Ornate Ruby]
[Gauntlets of Malorne]*
[Belt of Blasting] - [Veiled Noble Topaz] + [Glowing Nightseye]
[Nordrassil Wrath-Kilt] - [Rune Covered Chrysoprase]
[Boots of Foretelling]* - [Runed Living Ruby]x2
[Signet of Ancient Magics] - [Runed Living Ruby]
[Band of Eternity] - Friendly Caster Version
[Darkmoon Card: Crusade] - [Alchemist's Stone] for mana intensive fights, [Scryer's Bloodgem] when I don't have an elemental shaman, [Wushoolay's Charm of Nature] for trash/burst fights
[Icon of the Silver Crescent]
[Amani Punisher]
[Fetish of the Primal Gods]

So I am trying to decide what to go for. For gloves I can get either [Studious Wraps] or [Grasp of the Moonkin]. For bracers I could get either [Runed Spell-cuffs] or [Armwraps of the Kaldorei Protector]. Or I could upgrade my boots first to [Moon-walkers]. Or I could get [Battlemaster's Audacity]. Do I want to focus on regular spelldamage/crit/hit or try to get +spell haste in all my non T5 slots? I also have about 2k arena points to burn, but I could only use the gloves with outt breaking my 4 piece, and I already have the S1 gloves.

I am also trying to avoid getting an upgrade that is going to be replaced by moonkin drops that will be defaulted to me anyway (Bracers and Boots from RoS, and the Belt from Kaz'Rogal). Is it worth upgrading my boots or bracers when we will probably be at RoS relatively soon (how long should I expect it to take us to get there with us starting BT this week basically)? Are the leather drops from RoS even any better than these options?

Also with 4 pc T5 does crit become more valuable? should I switch my [Veiled Noble Topaz]s to [Potent Noble Topaz]s? And is it worth matching socket bonuses on the T5 Chest/T5 Legs/T5 Shoulders/Belt of Blasting?

Finally, now that I am unlikely to have a chance at the neck from Kael, what are my options for upgrading the neck?