The values that I came up with for 1 point of spirit taking Innervate into effect weren't much stronger, though a slight bit.
1 spirit is ~.08mp5 with Intensity inside of 5 seconds.
1 spirit is ~.56mp5 outside of 5 seconds.
Innervate will multiply the .56mp5 by 5, giving a grand total of 2.8mp5 for 20 seconds. Stretching this across a 6min cooldown (and the fact that I use a 6min fight as the basis for my calculations for abilities such as this), we obtain .16mp5.
Since 1mp5 has a value of 0.1, 1 spirit is equal to (.08)(.1)+(.16)(.1)=(0.008)+(0.016)=0.024 (either 0.02 or 0.03 depending on when you prefer to round).
Not sure what you're referring to with "impDS"; I'm still learning a lot of these acronyms.
I would like to see an item added into the spreadsheet options. This concerns the item called Tempest's Touch (http://www.thottbot.com/i29317). The Item may not be top of the line, but with some goods gems, it can be used for a long time until something better comes around. Easy to obtain from a CoT quest.
Makes 10 spi = 1 +dmg (with 2 talent points & buff from our friendly priest), so I'd call spirit 0.13 (bear in mind a 7 minute fight = 2 innervates, easily--doable in a 6.5 minute fight if you burn your mana quickly. Additionally, it's possible/easy to briefly fall outside of the 5SR if you're forced to interrupt a starfire--which is another reason why I'm rounding up).
Other buff acronyms:
(imp)BoW
BoK
AI
(imp)PW:F
(imp)MotW
Originally Posted by Thorondorchrom
I would like to see an item added into the spreadsheet options. This concerns the item called Tempest's Touch (http://www.thottbot.com/i29317).
I'll be sure to add this if I get around to another item update for the new PvP/Arena gear.
I have a question spurred by installing recount and playing with it - previously I've found this spreadsheet spot on accurate, but lately with some gear upgrades, use of castsequence macros and many Dr. Boom tests it seems to be underestimating my actual damage by about 10%. It's harder to test more accurately in raid conditions, but I'll see If I can dig up some hard numbers.
The spreadsheet with my gear and self buffs shows approximatly 900 dps for a IS SFx4 rotation (doing 3 min tests so mana is a not a issue), however my real world dps as reported by swstats/recount/dmg meters is averaging just under 1k. Is this because of latency (im usually at <100 ms), Dr. Boom being lvl 68 as oppossed to 70 (the lowest on the sheet), or is it because of inadequite modeling of mystical skyfire diamond/shiffars/clicky trinkets (icon of the silver crescent)? Is there some factor I'm completely missing or have I just had really good luck in the 10 or so trials I've run in the last few days.
Shiffars & click-trinkets (Icon, etc.) are NOT modeled in any way by the formulas--only their static benefits are accounted for. I'd be a bit surprised if they're adding 90-ish DPS, but I suppose not blown away.
If you're willing to do another trial with non-active trinkets (or with trinkets you don't activate, which I suppose isn't an option for Shiffar's) you might see if the numbers are more accurate there.
EDIT: PS, if anyone can test & confirm 209% crit damage from Relentless Earthstorm Diamond for us that would be sweet. I'd like to incorporate it into v0.70, but would love to see some cross-confirmation of the numbers before I do so.
re ran the test with diff trinkets, lower latency on the spreadsheet, and never touching the clicky- went down to only 10 dps higher than the sheet on average, so I'll call that within the margin of error.
I'm a jewelcrafter, so I'll make a relentless meta in the next few days and run some tests.
like i said... i have been working on a resto piece for this.
do you have some time to go over the P column on the "gear select" page? I get the gist of what it is trying to do, but when adding some resto items of my own i am having some issues that I am pretty sure are based around this calculation.
Wow, I never knew about Improved Divine Spirit. This is what happens when you let your priest rot at level 24 for almost two years.
That would certainly increase the value of Spirit. I'd say to a ~.1 ratio without actually crunching the numbers (at work at the moment and all of my post-it notes are at home).
I've read that Moonfury only applies to the base damage of Moonfire, Wrath, and Starfire. Is this verified? I need to go cuddle with Dr. Boom for a while longer I suppose. If that is the case, and modeling it, investing each point into Moonfury only increases DPS by about 1.6. I'd rather put those points somewhere else.
And regarding your DPS and Dr. Boom, Kellarus, the level difference may provide some DPS difference. I haven't seen anything conclusive stating that there is or is not a less than 4% miss chance on mobs lower than your level. If so, and you don't have any +hit gear vs. the level 70 target, I would say that there is a possibility.
Also you could be getting some lucky crits. The DPS from the spreadsheet is an average over time of sorts, so the longer you fire at Dr. Boom, the more possible that you may see your DPS approach the target from the spreadsheet.
I know that I have actually experienced my DPS as being lower during fights compared to the spreadsheet, but I also have more latency to deal with and a fear of aggro theft.
I've read that Moonfury only applies to the base damage of Moonfire, Wrath, and Starfire. Is this verified? I need to go cuddle with Dr. Boom for a while longer I suppose. If that is the case, and modeling it, investing each point into Moonfury only increases DPS by about 1.6. I'd rather put those points somewhere else.
Changed in 2.0. Rest assured your points in Moonfury are some of the best-spent ones in the tree (for PvE & scalability).
And regarding your DPS and Dr. Boom, Kellarus, the level difference may provide some DPS difference. I haven't seen anything conclusive stating that there is or is not a less than 4% miss chance on mobs lower than your level. If so, and you don't have any +hit gear vs. the level 70 target, I would say that there is a possibility.
Also you could be getting some lucky crits. The DPS from the spreadsheet is an average over time of sorts, so the longer you fire at Dr. Boom, the more possible that you may see your DPS approach the target from the spreadsheet.
I know that I have actually experienced my DPS as being lower during fights compared to the spreadsheet, but I also have more latency to deal with and a fear of aggro theft.
I think I figured out what it was. Like you I've seen actual dps lower on bosses than the sheet (to be expected with silences/dodging arcane orbs/shatters etc). That's why I was surprised the other day when I spent a few hours on DR. Boom testing recount. Part of it was me having a brain fart and thinking the sheet included clickies and procs as an average value. However that was only responsible for about 30ish dps
Latency is a much bigger factor than I thought it would be. I've gotten really spoiled lately with 50 ms ping almost always- the whole reason I noticed the disparity was that I was attempting to achieve theory crafting "lab conditions" on dr boom through quartz/stopcasting/castsequence macros. When I lowered the latency on the spreadsheet from .3 to .1 it made my average over 15 tests match up almost exactly.
to the spreadsheet pls? They are not that far away anymore for some and im guessing some would like to compare their "perfect equip" gear against other spellcasters.
Changed in 2.0. Rest assured your points in Moonfury are some of the best-spent ones in the tree (for PvE & scalability).
Are you certain of this? Modelling the effect of Moonfury over Wrath and Starfire, the numbers only match when Moonfury is applied only to the base damage rather than to the total damage after adding +spelldamage.
Unless it was broken very recently (which I have no evidence of), moonfury has been applying to both the base damage and the spell damage since 2.0. What number are you using for the spell damage coefficients? For example the 132% starfire damage coefficient already includes wrath of cenarius and moonfury, with moonfury added last - are you trying to add 10% on top of that?
For example using the average damage for starfire 8 and with 5/5 wrath of cenarius, and 1000 spell dmg and no idol.
With information from the spreadsheet, is it more effective to use wrath over starfire? When would it be more effective to put on my +arcane damage gear and use the IS/SFx3 rotation over a IS/MF/Wrath spam in my regular +damage gear is essentially what I'm asking. I've been having trouble getting any consistency with my damage with a wrath or starfire rotation. Could it be due to a lack of +hit?
My understanding is that Wrath represents better dps. Use it if mana isn't an issue, or if you need to cram a lot of dps into a small window of time. Ditto Moonfire.
Insect Swarm + Starfire are much better dpm. Using these allows for a cycle that can be sustained for longer, resulting in higher average dps in situations where Wrath spam will run you oom. (ie, everything bar v quick trash packs).
Starfire also has the advantage over Wrath that Nature's Grace procs will actually speed up your casting cycle, while a NG proc on Wrath will push it below the GCD and leave you unable to cast til the GCD is up.
Starfire also has the advantage over Wrath that Nature's Grace procs will actually speed up your casting cycle, while a NG proc on Wrath will push it below the GCD and leave you unable to cast til the GCD is up.
That's not exactly the right way to look at it. When you calculated starfire's DPS, you should've already counted NG in. Saying its DPS is lower but gets increased by NG doesn't help much. Saying if its DPS is higher/lower AFTER NG is a lot more useful information ;p
I agree with counting NG into SF's dps. Mana is really a non-issue now at my gear level, yet I still think SF based rotations are "in general" better dps than wrath ones in a raid environment. It just plays much better with raid buffs/curse of shadows/heroism/natures grace/MSD. Perhaps wrath would be better if you have a really bad ping and need NG to compensate for it on wrath. The only fight I currently use wrath spam +lightning capacitor on is void reaver, just because I'm always dodging orbs and I feel I can fine tune my threat easier.
Not having enough +hit is devastating to Starfire rotations though. Starfire DPS is very spikey for lack of a better word since it is big slow spells. Getting unlucky with a resist or two in a row can pretty much knock you out of a whole dps cycle before the next shatter/orb/phase change etc. Not to mention losing a chance at a natures grace proc. The good news is that this is also true on the other end with lucky crit strings fueling the NG engine and really spiking your damage up to absurd levels. Unfortunatly that can result in a dead moonkin, as a double crit can put out about 13k damage in 5 seconds at T4 gear level.
edit:
Just wanted to clarify what I meant by the above paragraph. Spell hit applies equally between wrath and starfire if you were able to sit there for 10,000 casts and average out your lost dps. However with the lower number of Starfire casts (about 60 on a gruul kill) there is much more room for outliers and wasted dps time in your results. The more casts you have, the more your dps gets smoothed out to the expected value. You are more likely to have a "bad run" or a "great run" in a starfire rotation as opposed to wrath
Last edited by Kellarus : 07/05/07 at 4:26 PM.
Reason: Clarity
It has seemed clear that boss fights such as Void Reaver would be better with SF rotation.
Unfortunately though, I've been limited to only being moonkin on karazhan runs (no moonkins allowed in 25 mans!). The fights there have been fairly fast, as would be expected with a mixture of some mains and mostly alts. I guess my question is more applying to those bosses. Is Starfire still superior in cases like that? Or will Starfire still beat out wrath damage on anything besides trash clearing or rather, any fight longer than 2 minutes or so?
The fights there have been fairly fast, as would be expected with a mixture of some mains and mostly alts. I guess my question is more applying to those bosses. Is Starfire still superior in cases like that? Or will Starfire still beat out wrath damage on anything besides trash clearing or rather, any fight longer than 2 minutes or so?
It's best to look at which buffs/debuffs are present. If you're able to get CoS (even 10%) Starfire should be pretty attractive. On the other hand, if you're getting Shadow Priest mana back + impBoW + impDS + JoW (lots of regen) and no CoS, then Wrath should play pretty nicely.
Put your numbers into the calculator, put in the actual buffs, ballpark the fight duration, and see what results you get.
You can even copy & paste addt'l copies of the sheet to compare multiple gear sets, different combinations of buffs/debuffs, and/or fight durations.
Remember when you calculate how long your mana lasts it gets very very complicated as the more time you spend moving in a fight as a time where regen etc as well as the fight's timer is running but you're not spending mana, so if a calculator (that doesn't take those things into account) says you can DPS for 3 mins b4 going oom with a certain rotations, in a real fight moving a certain % of the time will increase your time before oom by more than the given %. The more regen the bigger the difference.
06/28/07, 5:34 AM
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