Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet - Page 50

Vauk · 01/16/08, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Bluefish

Using the default settings on your spreadsheet, I set a Balance Druid up with equal ilvl gear to myself, tweaking slots to be a bit more fair: T5 4-piece, T4 gloves, T5 trinkets, T5 weapon, Kara boots/neck, T6 belt. The DPS sheet reads 1310 DPS. Taking Dreamstate to 0/3 OR Moonglow to 0/3 results in no DPS loss whatsoever, as the optimal cycle is sustainable for over 10 minutes. I can understand not wanting to give up sustainability -- don't want to be helpless if Shadow Priest dies, don't want to pot for farm content, etc -- so I looked into DPS talents. Losing 1 point out of Moonfury and 2 points out of Balance of Power seems to be the best we can do, taking us down to 1242 DPS. Now we take that number and we reduce it by 5% to account for FF uptime. We reach 1179 DPS. This is a loss of 131 DPS.

Edit: This is all rewritten.

I goofed the value of Imp FF by double-applying Faerie Fire in the Rogue Spreadsheet. Here's some more-accurate numbers. The 3% hit value is worth 35 DPS (a far cry from the previously-stated 90, I'll edit that) to myself. My typical raid runs an Enhancement Shaman, 2x Rogues, 1 DPS Warriors, 2x Hunters, one Feral Druid. That means 70 DPS for us Rogues, ~20 DPS for the Hunters (fluctuates somewhat with who's BM). That's 90 DPS, a raid DPS deficit of 41 DPS versus the Moonkin just doing the damage themselves, with a Feral Druid, an Enhancement Shaman, and a DPS Warrior unaccounted for, plus the aggro of the MT. None of that includes anyone optimizing their gear for the 3% hit.

Aldriana's guess is ~200 DPS in a 25-man raid and about a 4% threat increase for the MT.

I am sorry Bluefish. I know you mean well but something is wrong with your math/the spreadsheets. No moonkin in his right mind would ever raid without 3/3 Moonglow and 3/3 Dreamstate and the spreadsheet is just plain WRONG if it thinks a moonkin in the gear you describe can keep a good rotation going for 10 mins without those 2.

I've done some testing myself over the last couple days. Taking a point out of FoN and 2 out of Subelty to get 3/3 IFF.

The only thing I can say from my empirical experiments is that my DPS craters. I don't disagree that IFF is probably a 100 to 200 DPS increase over the raid. It is quite frankly an amazing buff. My point has always been that while it is amazing, in order for a moonkin to be considered a main dpser he can't (and doesn't need to) take it.

When my dps goes from 1100 down below 1000 I may not be losing as much as melee would gain from IFF but the raid loses a main dpser.

Another thing to take into account is the fights you encounter. On the bosses we work on so far Archimonde is the only one where buffind the melee is critical. I bit the bullet and got IFF for our Archimonde learning. For every other boss we have on farm atm ranged dps is extremely significant (and sometimes overshadows melee dps, Azgalor/Supremus anyone?) for those fights it isn't nearly as good of a buff.

I have never said IFF wasn't a good debuff. I just dislike people who say it is essential.

Efejel · 01/16/08, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by Vauk

I am sorry Bluefish. I know you mean well but something is wrong with your math/the spreadsheets. No moonkin in his right mind would ever raid without 3/3 Moonglow and 3/3 Dreamstate and the spreadsheet is just plain WRONG if it thinks a moonkin in the gear you describe can keep a good rotation going for 10 mins without those 2.

I think it's probably based on 250 shadow priest mp5, along with full mana buffs--BoW, BoK, Mana Spring, potion consumption.

Whether or not you have a Shadow priest that can sustain 1000+ DPS for 10 minutes is a good question.

Efejel · 01/16/08, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Maax

Do I want to focus on regular spelldamage/crit/hit or try to get +spell haste in all my non T5 slots?

I definately think this is the crux of the issue. I'd look forward to hearing experienced opinions from anyone who has tried stacking haste.

Vauk · 01/16/08, 2:16 PM

Originally Posted by Efejel

I think it's probably based on 250 shadow priest mp5, along with full mana buffs--BoW, BoK, Mana Spring, potion consumption.

Whether or not you have a Shadow priest that can sustain 1000+ DPS for 10 minutes is a good question.

Sorry Efejel, didn't mean to knock the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet is great... the user on the other hand...

In my experience none of the shadow priests I have been around can average 1k dps at all so far, let alone for 10 minutes. I shudder to think about raiding without the talents the previous poster mentioned.

Bluefish · 01/16/08, 2:36 PM

Originally Posted by Vauk

When my dps goes from 1100 down below 1000 I may not be losing as much as melee would gain from IFF but the raid loses a main dpser.

This quote makes 0 sense. Raid DPS kills bosses. Personal DPS only matters as a component of raid DPS, or in fights where you have to split DPS between multiple targets, of which TBC features...Hyjal trash?

If the spreadsheet's sustainability model is broken, that's not my problem.

I dug up our Shadow Priest's WWS for her last Tidewalker, she sustained 975 DPS for 7-8 minutes.

Maax · 01/16/08, 3:17 PM

Another question. With T5 4 pc bonus, if there is another moonkin in the raid putting up MF/IS, is Starfire spam the best DPS? Is it still beneficial to drop my own dots as well (and just not have to be as careful in refreshing/deciding whether to squeeze that last SF in).

Vauk · 01/16/08, 3:54 PM

Originally Posted by Maax

Another question. With T5 4 pc bonus, if there is another moonkin in the raid putting up MF/IS, is Starfire spam the best DPS? Is it still beneficial to drop my own dots as well (and just not have to be as careful in refreshing/deciding whether to squeeze that last SF in).

Yes, if you trust the other moonkin to keep MF/IS up then SF spam is the way to go. It isn't beneficial to keep you dots up and they will end up taking debuff spots that can be use for other things.

Vauk · 01/16/08, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by Bluefish

This quote makes 0 sense. Raid DPS kills bosses. Personal DPS only matters as a component of raid DPS, or in fights where you have to split DPS between multiple targets, of which TBC features...Hyjal trash?

If the spreadsheet's sustainability model is broken, that's not my problem.

I dug up our Shadow Priest's WWS for her last Tidewalker, she sustained 975 DPS for 7-8 minutes.

Yah... that statement doesn't make much sense

There are a variety of reasons why me losing that much dps is bad some of which are:
Melee survivability compared to a ranged caster with a shit ton of armor.
Movement fights for ranged versus melee.
Fights with more than one target.

I have never said that my DPS is more important than raid DPS other. Heck I actually respeced IFF for Archimonde. That particular statement was just made to point out the fact that I lose a huge chunk of dps and there are a variety of fights where that is a bad thing.

Caanrial · 01/16/08, 5:21 PM

1. Trying to decide if I should replace my T4 gloves with Grasp of the Moonkin not sure what one and a half percent spell haste brings to the table for me...anyone tell me if it is worth it when just starting SSC/Kazzak/Mag?

2. Should I get the cloth badge pants Pantaloons of Arcane Annihilation or keep trying for the Trial-Fire Trousers from Opera Event in Kara, knowing that all of my guild's mages & spriests will get them before me? GG Blizz, once again you blew it for Balance Druids and did not give us any caster leather pants badge rewards...

3. (OT) Is there a way to see my spell haste rating? It doesn't appear to be a listed attribute on the WoW Armory website...

Vauk · 01/16/08, 6:25 PM

Originally Posted by Caanrial

1. Trying to decide if I should replace my T4 gloves with Grasp of the Moonkin not sure what one and a half percent spell haste brings to the table for me...anyone tell me if it is worth it when just starting SSC/Kazzak/Mag?

2. Should I get the cloth badge pants Pantaloons of Arcane Annihilation or keep trying for the Trial-Fire Trousers from Opera Event in Kara, knowing that all of my guild's mages & spriests will get them before me? GG Blizz, once again you blew it for Balance Druids and did not give us any caster leather pants badge rewards...

3. (OT) Is there a way to see my spell haste rating? It doesn't appear to be a listed attribute on the WoW Armory website...

Getting the grasp really depends on if you are going to be getting into SSC anything soon and if you have a chance on tier 5 gloves. If you are going to progress on then just wear your T4 until you get a chance at T5 loots.

Overall I am not convinced on spell haste. I don't have any math to back up my word but my gut reaction to haste at the gear level you are at is that it isn't worth it.

As for pants I wouldn't take either of these. I'd personally get Spellstrike Pants made (yes it is expensive but it leaves you to spend you badges on the harder pieces like wrists/chest). Spellstrike will last you until T5 pants.

Personally the way I would go about gear right now is:
Head: Spellstrike to T5 (or engineering helm)
Chest: Badge Chest until T5
Wrist: Badge Wrists until T6 stuff
Gloves: T4 until T5 (until T6 if you are lucky enough to grab a chest)
Waist: Anything until T5 content (think i had some leather moonkin drop from kara)
Pants: Spellstrike/T4 until T5
Boots: Ruby Slippers till T5 loot (i forget what i was wearing before Ruby Slippers, if there is badge gear for this slot pick it up)

Overall Gearwise:
T5 bonus > hit (until hit capped) > damage > crit or spirit or mp5 or int > everything else

Cheers

Allanon · 01/16/08, 6:47 PM

Originally Posted by Caanrial

1. Trying to decide if I should replace my T4 gloves with Grasp of the Moonkin not sure what one and a half percent spell haste brings to the table for me...anyone tell me if it is worth it when just starting SSC/Kazzak/Mag?

2. Should I get the cloth badge pants Pantaloons of Arcane Annihilation or keep trying for the Trial-Fire Trousers from Opera Event in Kara, knowing that all of my guild's mages & spriests will get them before me? GG Blizz, once again you blew it for Balance Druids and did not give us any caster leather pants badge rewards...

3. (OT) Is there a way to see my spell haste rating? It doesn't appear to be a listed attribute on the WoW Armory website...

I check my haste rating by counting it myself

or you can have your gear in the spreadsheet and see it there :P But anyway I think haste is really awesome. Grasp of the moonkin is the best thing at the badge vendor. The other parts are sidegrades from Windhawk armor imo. Get Moon-walkers for the cool name :P

About pants, I read in this thread maybe there are some in ZA now? Also realize that as a moonkin you need equal rights to cloth drops as your spriest and mage buddies, otherwise you will not get the gear you need. There is barely any leather +dmg gear in this game besides the tier pieces.

Celdhyrean · 01/16/08, 6:49 PM

Moonwalkers (60 badges) instead of Ruby Slippers (they're basically the same but better, just without hearthstone).
For gloves, you can also go for the studious grasp instead of moonkin grasp (cloth 60 badges gloves), the small amount of haste from the leather gloves alone won't be much help. This naturally depends on where you get your +hit, the Attumen gloves are better if you need that bonus.

There are new leather pants in ZA now, from the first chest of the timed event. Depends on where you stand, if you're not doing ZA yet I'd get the S3 pants.

Saraya · 01/16/08, 9:43 PM

The problem with haste is that it only increases DPS without increasing DPM(M is for mana). So unless you're able to sustain whatever the best rotation is for the whole duration of the fight with the haste, it's really not going to be a great stat to pick. In order to use a haste kit you'd need a very solid shadow priest for sure. I picked up the Studious Wraps instead because they're overall a safer upgrade option.

However, if they change NG and haste to reduce the GCD, we might have to take a very very close look at spell haste once again. This is but a dream though.

S3 pants vs the ZA chest reward pants is kind of a wash. If you obey the socket bonuses, you get like 4 damage, 12 crit, 5 int for 7 mp5. For fights where you are borderline running out of mana, they're about equal. But for bosses, I'd suggest spellstrike regardless. As much as I hated wearing cloth, they're really too good.

Xantcha · 01/17/08, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by Vauk

Sorry Efejel, didn't mean to knock the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet is great... the user on the other hand...

In my experience none of the shadow priests I have been around can average 1k dps at all so far, let alone for 10 minutes. I shudder to think about raiding without the talents the previous poster mentioned.

I'm in a Illidan farming guild, two of our shadow priests which have raided with us since Gruul's Lair have easily exceeded 1k dps a while back. The first time being a Gruul raid back when we were still in the middle of ssc, I remember distinctly the first time I saw the shadow priest break 1k dps.
They may have some horrible scaling issues since then and many fights where they can't go all out (pushback/threat/can't swd) but our experienced shadowpriests have no problem breaking 1k dps on most fights and can easily push 1.2k+ on more dps friendly fights.

Vauk:
As you say, there are some fights which are bad for melee - but there are also fights which are bad for casters (or just plain good for melee/physical dps). If you were willing to spec differently for every single fight than maybe this would matter but we are looking at the bigger picture.

Treebilly · 01/17/08, 3:15 AM

hey,

slightly of current tangent, but i am interested to know the damage scaling of treants to spell dmg.
my apologies if this has been covered previously. however this info will complete my spreadsheet.

Regards