Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet - Page 51

Benita · 01/17/08, 5:47 AM

Originally Posted by Xantcha

They may have some horrible scaling issues since then and many fights where they can't go all out (pushback/threat/can't swd) but our experienced shadowpriests have no problem breaking 1k dps on most fights and can easily push 1.2k+ on more dps friendly fights.

Their dps might not scale as well as other casters (namely destro locks), but their mana regen is actually getting to a breaking even point. The more damage they do, the more mana they regen per second, the more damage they can sustain.

I want to throw in the next part for the sake of discussion and because some questions regarding BT/hyjal gear came up in the last 2 pages, but generally i was able to outdps everyone but destro locks in 2.1 with this.
Maybe i followed an odd gearing process as i never was a tailor or able to pick up enough moonkin t5 and the haste items dropped when noone wanted them, but for me some guidelines on a t6 level were:

- IS is a wasted GCD unless your tanks are about to die all the time like in Illidan phase 2 for example

- MF is good once you get 2t6, it gets a bit worse in comparison when you reach 4t6, its a dps increase to use even then

- IFF is worth it unless you run with only 1 or 2 non-hit capped melees, its always worth it if your MT is not hit capped (check their gear, it doesnt change fast on a t6 raiding level)

- Reaching the hit cap first is best because of threat spikes and debuff upkeep

- Haste is not as good as crit, both increase your mana consumption and both are worse for 4t5 because of a worse dot/direct damage ratio

- The specc should reflect the group setup.

I usually run with a spriest and the mages are in that group aswell plus a resto shaman for mana tide. I dont have Intensity and yes id wish the spirit on the t6 would be Intellect, self-mana regen from 2 sources is a bad concept, innervate could also just work like the new evocate.
MF/5SF is what i use, it means maximum mana and dps output for me, use the instant to adjust your position/aura in the fight or if you need to add IS to it aswell situational.

I did try out a more mana friendly specc a while ago and was able with using pots to dps fine in a resto shaman/destro lock group. (MF/SF or IS/MF/SF or IS/SF depending on the fight) They loved the aura and im guessing the dps increase of it was higher than for the mage/spriest group. I did not have IFF then, i guess its a tradeoff but you can adjust to your raidleaders choice of group composition. Luckily in our guild thats me.

Vandiego · 01/17/08, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Maax

Another question. With T5 4 pc bonus, if there is another moonkin in the raid putting up MF/IS, is Starfire spam the best DPS? Is it still beneficial to drop my own dots as well (and just not have to be as careful in refreshing/deciding whether to squeeze that last SF in).

When both of us are in the raid I will scale back to my T5 and put haste in all my off slots. It is quite nasty.

Daeyeman · 01/17/08, 6:42 PM

I wanted to get some feedback to the viability of FF stacking.
Typically in our raids we will have at least 1 feral druid and myself (boomkin)
I will typically toss a IFF on a mob that is not being tanked by the feral druid and on his mob I will de-rank my FF so that the feral FF will stack with mine.
Is this worth the time and effort or is it better just to use IFF on all mobs regardless if (F)FF is already in place?

Nano Gurth · 01/18/08, 5:40 AM

Originally Posted by Daeyeman

I wanted to get some feedback to the viability of FF stacking.
Typically in our raids we will have at least 1 feral druid and myself (boomkin)
I will typically toss a IFF on a mob that is not being tanked by the feral druid and on his mob I will de-rank my FF so that the feral FF will stack with mine.
Is this worth the time and effort or is it better just to use IFF on all mobs regardless if (F)FF is already in place?

m8, different stacks of FF (improved or not, that is), never stack. they just overwrite one over the other.
improved FF always overwrites not improved FF.
if you try lower ranks on a mob already tagged with FF max rank, you will just get the "a more powerful version of the spell is already on the target.." message.

Daeyeman · 01/18/08, 6:12 PM

As long as I de-rank to rank 5 and a feral druid uses there rank 6 FFF it will show both deubuffs which in my mind should be -505 armor + 3% to hit with melee as well as an additional -610 armor
using the IFF rank 5 and the FFF rank 6.
I just wanted to see if anyone has done any math as to the benefit of this blizz oversight?

Ursanis · 01/19/08, 9:59 AM

Originally Posted by Daeyeman

As long as I de-rank to rank 5 and a feral druid uses there rank 6 FFF it will show both deubuffs which in my mind should be -505 armor + 3% to hit with melee as well as an additional -610 armor
using the IFF rank 5 and the FFF rank 6.
I just wanted to see if anyone has done any math as to the benefit of this blizz oversight?

Could it be a display bug? Maybe both debuffs are showing, but the -armor from one of them isn't
really applied. You should test that by using both FFs on someone in Gurubashi Arena and having them check their stats. Or you could try using a beast type mob with a hunter using beast lore on it.

Ailetha · 01/19/08, 9:58 PM

As I understand it, the spreadsheet DOES calculate the Alc Stone effect. However, this spreadsheet does NOT calculate the Fel Mana Potion debuff on it; does anyone know what effect it has on DPS over like a 10 minute fight, with Alc Stone and chain chugging them?

I am a pot spec druid about to start alt runs (respeccing to moonkin) and would very much like to chug Fel Manas if they are worth it. I am trying to work it out so that I can go an entire fight without an innervate, shadow priest, mana tide, etc so that I don't have to depend on group make up so much.

So, I am taking the spreadsheet calculations and making an inference here. I am using Blinding Light, Poached Bluefish, and Superior Wizard Oil. Would it be fair to say this theorycrafting is roughly accurate:

My Super Mana Potions provide 897 DPS over the duration of a 10 minute fight and I go OOM at 9 minutes 7 seconds. (IS, SFx4 rotation)

According to the spreadsheet, that means the Fel Manas would keep me from going out of mana altogether, but I would lose DPS as the fight goes on: (IS, SFx4 rotation)

982 at 0 mins in (this is what the spreadsheet listed as DPS with FMP option set to yes, so this is before taking any FMPs)
969.5 at 2 mins in (1 FMP)
957 at 4 mins in (2 FMPs)
944.5 at 6 mins in (3 FMPs)
932 at 8 mins in (4 FMPs)

averaging out to 957 DPS without going out of mana.

Does that sound about right? Anyone have experience with chain chugging these suckers? Are they a no-go? My cycle base DPS is 1031; so should I start out with that as the beginning number instead of 982 to figure out the FMP effect?

Also, from playing around on this spreadsheet, it looks like mana is pretty tight so, unless i have an spriest, I pretty much can't use Destro Pots. Even if I use Mighty Resto, Mana Oil, Mana Spring, and Innervate, I still run out of mana unless I use SMPs/FMPs. Is this a fair analysis? Do very many moonkins use Destro Pots? Ideally I'd like to chain chug these, but it seems like the mana just isn't there without an spriest.

Efejel · 01/20/08, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by Ailetha

As I understand it, the spreadsheet DOES calculate the Alc Stone effect. However, this spreadsheet does NOT calculate the Fel Mana Potion debuff on it; does anyone know what effect it has on DPS over like a 10 minute fight, with Alc Stone and chain chugging them?

I'd consider using a Super Mana Pot first, then switching to FMP--you should be OK on mana early, and it basically amounts to how soon you start chugging. Then to estimate your DPS I'd take the total number of FMP debuffs you're expecting to get (say, 4) divide by 2 to average before & after (and with using an SMP initially, your before should ~= your after) and plug that in as a "custom" stat on the gear select page, as -50 dmg. Or you could set up several 2 minute increments (which is maybe what you already did?) with -0, -25, -50 etc. but I'd think it wouldn't be too far off to estimate and will be a lot easier to see trends when playing around with various gearsets etc.

As far as using dest pots without a Shadow Priest... when I was raiding I definately had trouble chain casting and using cheap/free PvP potions without downranking, unless I got an SPriest. I can't imagine keeping up several minutes of DPS with no SPriest AND dest potions, unless you're packing some serious gear AND you gem for int/mp5 (which is far inferior to dmg when you do have an spriest or are just doing trash).

Allanon · 01/22/08, 3:10 AM

Does the spreadsheet accurately account for "use" and proc trinkets? I was trying to figure out which trinket I could replace quag with and the biggest dps gain was alchemist stone by far, way over guldan even. The BT rep trinket doesnt give much dps at all although it seemed to me that proc would be amazing...

is alchemist stone really better than guldan/hex head? is equilibrium really so bad?

Efejel · 01/22/08, 6:03 AM

Originally Posted by Efejel

Q: How do you calculate for activated trinkets/potions and proc trinkets/set-bonuses/rings/idols?
A: I don't. Except for predictable mana restore effects, which can be easily averaged, the effects of proc-based (Mag's Eye, Quag's Eye, TLC, Sextant, etc.) and activated (Icon of the Silver Crescent, Scryer's Bloodgem, etc.) trinkets and the like are IGNORED. You'll pretty much be left to your own devices & the opinions of other experienced Druids to assign a numeric value to these effects, especially ones which are fight & spell-cycle dependent.

First post. :-/

Celdhyrean · 01/22/08, 7:49 PM

It also could easily be the case if you setup the spreadsheet in such way that you're completely manastarved (long fights, no SP/shaman, don't get your own innervate, ...).
That's how in my current typical raid situation, T4 gloves end up being slightly better than T5 gloves, because of the 2/4 bonus.

autrui · 01/22/08, 7:59 PM

Ok, I apologize in advance if this has already been covered, but this thread is getting quite long.

I'm not a great math person, so I'm not sure how to go about answering this question; an answer, or a suggestion on how to come up with an answer, would be awesome.

The question is this: impFF vs. subtlety.

ImpFF is able, in a minor way, to improve some raid dmg (and moonkin viability); but the only way I could possibly stomach putting points there is if the increased threat produced by a tank geared/gemmed in less +hit could make up for the lack of threat reduction with only 1-3 points in subtlety.

Is 3% +hit to the tank the equivalent of -12% threat from the druid?

EDIT: also: I picked up the new moonkin legs from ZA (Thottbot World of Warcraft: Elunite Imbued Leggings) last nite, and went to play around with em on the spreadsheet and found they weren't in there. They're not even on wowhead! I just made myself "pantless" and put the stats in "other", but I figured I'd let you know anyway.

Celdhyrean · 01/22/08, 8:12 PM

If you're at the threat ceiling with Subtlety, iFF won't be enough to compensate for the threat reduction. Else...
Try to see where you stand on boss fights on threat vs your tanks and decide with that (knowing that upping your gear might force you to reevaluate your choices). Or just spec it and see if you're forced to stop dps at times or not.

Saraya · 01/23/08, 4:01 AM

The short generalized answer would be:
If you aren't threat capped and there are 2 or more people who are threat capped, max out IFF.
If you are threat capped and there are 4 or more other people who are threat capped, max out IFF.

Read on if you want to see my math behind these statements.

It's really impossible to place a simple yes or no answer on the IFF vs Subtlety debate. However, here's some estimated math to help you decide. Hopefully this isn't going to seed another pointless three page derail.

A few things to keep in mind before we begin:
If you are not threat capped, subtlety is not helping you at all.
If you are casting IFF, you lose 3.75% dps time (1.5/40)
Each point in IFF means ~ 1% higher threat cap for raiders
These calculations assume everyone is at a roughly equal DPS level
The armor reduction effect is totally ignored
Blessing of Salvation is ignored since it makes my math easier
----------------------------------
With this, you can already draw some easy conclusions if you are not threat capped since you only lose personal DPS when casting IFF.
With IFF1, cast it if you have 4+ raiders at the threat cap (3.75% < 4%)
With IFF2, cast it if you have 2+ raiders at the threat cap (3.75% < 4%)
With IFF3, cast it if you have 2+ raiders at the threat cap (3.75% < 6%)
----------------------------------
If you are at the threat cap...

Sub - # of points in Subtlety
IFF - # of points in IFF
P.DPS - Player DPS Ratio (1.0 if not casting IFF, 0.9625 if casting)
P.TM - Player Threat Multiplier (1-0.04*subtlety)
P.TC - Player's relative threat cap (1/(P.DPS*P.TM)*(1+0.01*IFF))
P.RD - Player's relative DPS ratio (P.TC*P.DPS). Yes this just cancels out P.DPS, but this is because you can still do damage to gain back the threat lost while casting IFF
Delta - Damage ratio difference from 4/5 Subtlelty
Eq1.0 - Equivalent # of threat capped players needed for an overall increase in raid DPS (Ceiling(Delta/(0.01*IFF))), No threat mods
Eq.8 - Same as above, 0.8 threat mod (Delta/(0.01*IFF)*0.8)
Eq.7 - Same as above, 0.7 threat mod (Delta/(0.01*IFF)*0.7)

Sub   IFF   P.DPS   P.TM  P.TC     P.RD     Delta    Eq1.0   Eq.8   Eq.7
4     0     1.0000  0.84  1.19048  1.19048  0.00000  -       -      -
3     1     0.9625  0.88  1.19244  1.14772  0.04276  5+      4+     3+
2     2     0.9625  0.92  1.15189  1.10869  0.08179  5+      4+     3+
1     3     0.9625  0.96  1.11472  1.07292  0.11756  4+      4+     3+

So there you have it. In this imaginary world, if you have 4 people sitting at the threat cap(excluding yourself), then 3/3 IFF will raise raid damage. However, these do not reflect the majority of in game situations, so you'll have to make the call in the end.

Boevis · 01/23/08, 5:02 AM

Keep in mind that's also not counting the overall Raid DPS increase caused by iFF for non-threat capped people.

Because you never know when the next upgrade is coming, and wasting Epic gems is well, wasteful, most physical classes that can afford the bag space (read: all except some tanks) are going to be carrying many pieces of gear. Personally, I have almost a full 2nd set of gear for DPS, and I constantly experiment different combinations, a good deal of this gear is Armor Pen gear, which has a complete lack of +Hit on it, but is comparable to my +Hit items anyway. Knowing I'll get 3% Hit from a moonkin, I can swap gear and gain ~400 Armor Pen about 100 AP and some crit.

Just by myself, I'd be making up 1% of your lost DPS back just with gear-swaps, throw in a couple hunters and a MS warrior doing the same (DW classes are less likely to gear-swap but will still gain DPS regardless) and you don't even have to look at the Threat Thresholds to see that iFF is worth it.