Melador

Hm? What's Ef? And if Moonfury doesn't give a 10% damage bonus...what does it do?

 

• Adoriele

Ef, short for Efejel, is the guy who wrote the sheet =P And it does... But it doesn't. I.E. I have 5 ranks in Moonfury. That means SF should do 646.8 average damage, 647 rounded up, base. It doesn't. It does 658 average base damage. Not sure why, but that's what happens.

 

Melador

Ah, okay, just didn't know that abbreviation. Guess I'll play around on the PTR and see if I can figure out what it's doing.

 

drooberry

is this right? is this neck better then the neck from prince in kara?

 

Candela

That's because the Spell Info Sites use kinda outdated information.

for example, wowhead lists SF rank 8 as 540-636 dmg, 588 avg, 646.8 with moonfury
the actual dmg on live servers tho is 550-647 dmg, avg 598.5, 658.35 with moonfury

 

• Adoriele

Aha, makes sense. I've never checked in-game by dropping talents (Hey, I'm proud of my 15g respec cost!). Do you know the untalented bases of the other spells?

 

Candela

for the highest ranks:

IS: 792 dot
MF: 305-357, 600 dot
WR: 383-432
SF: 550-647

 

Melador

Did some testing on the PTR, and to answer my own questions:

1) Moonfury and Improved Moonfire act on the entire damage of the spell, not just your +dmg.
2) WoC only acts on your +dmg.
3) Moonfury and Improved Moonfire are additive, not multiplicative.

 

tehdarkknight

Really? I thought IS's coefficient was 0.80, based on the idea that a DoT's coefficient is Duration / 15.
I've been looking for actual numbers on coefficients, and all I've managed to find is WoWWiki's generalizations based on casting times. /sigh

 

Ragesh

here you find the calculation for moonfire Moonfire - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

 

Candela

12/15 = 0.80

it has a second effect (lowers chance to hit), so it gets a 5% penalty for that. 0.80 * 0.95 = 0.76, which is the correct coefficient.

--------------------------------

for moonfire:

direct dmg: instant cast -> 1.5/3.5 = 3/7 = ~0.4286
dmg over time: 12 sec -> 12/15 = 0.80

since it is a combined spell (direct dmg + dot), the spelldmg gets divided.

the portion of the dot part is (12/15) / (12/15 + 1.5/3.5) = 28/43 = ~0.6512
the portion of the direct dmg part is 1 - dot_portion = 15/43 = ~0.3488

the final coefficients are:

direct dmg: 3/7 * 15/43 = 45/301 = ~0.1495
dmg over time: 0.80 * 28/43 = 112/215 = ~0.5209

--------------------------------

for wrath: 2.0/3.5 = 4/7 = ~0.5714
for starfire: 3.5/3.5 = 1.00

 

MadSoul

Funny thing about 0.80c..
In edited fields of version that is availible for download you choosed all endgame dps items new in 2.4 and got 1932 dps.
But if we change helm, shoulder, chest and legs and get Tier 5.. That gives us 1952 dps :P
According to this results, we honestly can admit that 4 x T5 is ok for Sunwell oO
Sure it has less stats, but still.. It is much easier to get

 

• Adoriele

4T5 requires either a Vashj or a Kael kill to get. For any guild in Sunwell, that's about the definition of impossible to get, now that Hyjal doesn't need an attunement =P

 

MadSoul

yes, you're right a bit I currently have that problem
My guild completed attunement for hyjal/bt just before 2.4 and now all our efforts are for new progress.. No time for TK/SSC, and i still need damn chest =) Dropped two times before, but no luck with dkp standings..

Still, if you are a long-time raiding moonkin it is a big probability that u got 4 t5 pieces, or even 5
4 x T5 + 4 x T6 looks ideal for me.

 

Efejel

Yeah, but it's a 20 DPS difference that would be quickly erased if, say, 10% of the time your Starfires land after your DoTs expire. While it might not occur 10% of the time, it will likely be the case in a Sf/Mf rotation at least some of the time.

And if you're using a IS,SfxA,Mf,SfxB rotation to get these numbers, then you'll be losing some fraction of your non-T5 DPS until Blizzard buffs IS damage.

Finally, you have to ask yourself if the raw stats (HP, mana, regen) lost are really worth 1.03% more theoretical DPS.

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

MadSoul

For sure it's not WORTH it, if you can get all 10+ endgame items - you should do it!
I just wanted to admit that you can get same theoretical dps with much less itemization = time = dkp
I'm using sf/mf cycle commonly.. I think that's not hard to overwrite last tick of MF, that makes your cycle more dpm, but almoust same dps And MF idol buff is more often up.

It's around same dps, looking at wowhead discussion
I think this one is better then both [Loop of Cursed Bones]

 

leenix

Hi i'm trying a new Spell cycle that goes like this :


MF > Starfire > Wrath > Starfire > Wrath > Starfire > Wrath > MF

Considered that my Moonfire Duration is now 15 secs thanks to the Tr6 2 x set bonus.

I was able to do some stupidly high dps with it on single mob fights and i even had a friend of mine try it out just to confirm that it wasnt my lucky crits that caused high dps.
Well he topped brutallus's dmg meters with it.


Could someone posibly Confirm it AGAIN for me? I'd bethankfull :P
Just give me a what kind of dps i could theoretically dish out with it.

 

◊ Pudgeball

I haven't tested it yet, but mainly because I'm feral most of the time I dunno how hard it would be to model either. What DPS did your friend actually get with it - WWS?

 

Bellawynn

You should be able to model it in the spreadsheet (2nd to last page) using a custom model of 1xMF, 3xSF, 3xWrath. Ordering shouldn't matter since any crit before a Wrath still causes Wrath to take the entire GCD.

 

xtyrulx

Hey everyone... I realize this isnt related to the spreadsheet, but it seems the best place to ask none the less.

Without getting into a lot of detail, Im wondering just how usefull IFF is vs plain FF/FFF.

Im curious, as our guild is currently working on Illidan and Ive had a few requests to spec into IFF... but I cant find much in the way of "numbers" showing the benefits IFF could provide or how one could calculate said benefits. Im certainly no mathematical wizard, and granted I havent combed every single piece of text on these forums. Most of what I have found involves a lot of "if this... if that" scenarios that arent spelled out in any incredible detail. Before I go about sacrificing some of my much loved talents to pick up IFF and give the feral's one less thing to do... I want to gain a clearer understand of just how important it actually is.

 

Sorail

You won't find numbers on this as this is highly dependant on your raid.
- How many tanks do you use? Is any of them hitcapped?
- Is any of your dps threatcapped?
- How many physical dps classes do you use on average, do they have the gear to utilise +3% raidwide hit?
- How much more dps do your physical dps classes do when they need to equip 3% less hit?

If you can answer this, you'll have the benefit iFF gives you over FF/fFF.

 

Saraya

This reminds me of the quirk in healing gear thanks to the healing->damage conversion, so I figured I'd bring it up in case other people have gear suggestions. I know it was mentioned before, but it was only briefly mentioned and was before 2.3 was out I think.

There are two pieces of healing gear that I know of that are very viable as dps pieces.
[Brooch of Nature's Mercy] if you compare to the Loop of Cursed Bones is actually better for DPS in a raid setting. I picked this up for healing very very early on, and kept waiting for Zuljin to drop me the necklace, but now that I look at it, the eagle neck I already have is better.
[Shroud of the Highborne] off Illidan is of course the 2nd piece, but the council cloak may be better depending on the rest of your gear.

Does anyone see any other healing gear that is superior to the DPS counterpart, or are these two the only special cases?

 

Lazi

Using FF in your rotation drops your DPS by 4.x%. Calculate that figure. Picking up iFF means dropping 3 talent points elsewhere - I went for 2/3 Intensity, 3/5 Subtlety (Although I'm changing this to 3/3 Intensity and 2/3 Dreamstate). Are you threat capped/running OOM already? If so, it's probably something to do with your gear and/or group as dropping those points for me made no difference to my DPS.

Ask one of your physical DPS to check how much difference 3% Hit makes to their DPS. If they are hit capped already, they can swap out 2 pieces of gear, just like casters do when they do/don't have an Ele Shaman. Add all those numbers together and see how it compares to the DPS you lose from using iFF. Also, bear in mind the extra threat your tanks will receive and that it will offset in part the threat increase you'll see if you drop any points in Subtlety.

I've seen a lot of arguments against getting iFF but really, unless you're stacking a raid anti-melee I'm not convinced by them. I've had iFF for a long time and won't be dropping it anytime soon.

 

◊ Lorewanderer

[Botanist's Gloves of Growth] (and the Sunwell crafted upgrade [Leather Gauntlets of the Sun]) are both better than anything before Sunwell.

[Belt of Primal Majesty] is not quite as good as a few other BT/MH pieces, but quite strong as well.

 

xtyrulx

Awesome, thank you for the responses.

A regular raid comp for us will usually consist of 2 warrior tanks, 1 pally tank, 2 fury warriors, 2 rogues, 2 hunters and 1 enh shammy. None of which are hit capped, so I cant see them adjusting gear to account for the additional hit. Its also a very rare occasion in which we run into threat problems. In fact the only fight I can think of that can problematic for us in relation to threat is Bloodboil.

10 people who could benefit from an additional 3% chance to hit is nothing to scoff at Im guessing. I think Im still going to sit down at some point and try to calculate out, on a player-to-player basis how much additional dps they stand to gain from the additional hit alone. Im very interested in looking at how much dps the raid could gain if I sacrifice 4% of my own. (and just when I was starting to show up in the top 4 on our raid parses... lol)


Thanks again guys.