A regular raid comp for us will usually consist of 2 warrior tanks, 1 pally tank, 2 fury warriors, 2 rogues, 2 hunters and 1 enh shammy. None of which are hit capped, so I cant see them adjusting gear to account for the additional hit. Its also a very rare occasion in which we run into threat problems. In fact the only fight I can think of that can problematic for us in relation to threat is Bloodboil.
10 people who could benefit from an additional 3% chance to hit is nothing to scoff at Im guessing. I think Im still going to sit down at some point and try to calculate out, on a player-to-player basis how much additional dps they stand to gain from the additional hit alone. Im very interested in looking at how much dps the raid could gain if I sacrifice 4% of my own. (and just when I was starting to show up in the top 4 on our raid parses... lol)
Thanks again guys.
You also have to realize that as well as the melee getting a DPS boost, the casters get one indirectly by way of higher threat from your tanks (who are most likely not hit-capped), leading to a higher threat cap. In almost all cases, iFF is worth any personal DPS lost.
These formulas are contained in the grid: V4:Z5 in the hidden Damage_Calcs sheet.
Fixing them gives dps values which no longer favor haste over hit (the current spread sheet favors haste massively over hit with enough spell damage, in part because with the wrong formula, haste doesn't have any diminishing returns (actually, one could even argue for increasing returns, since a spell haste of 100% gives you a 0 cast time spell, ie, inifinite damage, which is definitely an increasing return on investment)).
Can this fix be implemented into 0.81 or something soon? I'm not sure enough of the code to alter it myself and I'm trying to decide between items like [Boots of Incantations] and [Footpads of Madness] but I'm not sure if I trust the spreadsheet since it's haste vs hit.
Hey guys. It seems that my DPS is not where it should be for my gear level and I still can not find a solution.
Here is our last WWS of Brutallus attempts Wow Web Stats
Some things to note. I do not have a Shadow Priest or an Elemental Shaman for these attempts and my mana for the most part is not an issue. No malediction warlock either.
Pre T6 level gear I was doing amazing DPS in my 4pcT5, not more than I am pulling now however. It seems that the gear upgrades I've gotten have only added about 100dps.
Any thoughts/suggestions/brutally harsh criticisms would be appreciated.
You have pretty much the same gear as me, and you're numbers seemed fine. It took me a while to figure out what the problem was. Going over a bunch of the different attempts, you just arent casting enough. I'm not sure if this is a lag issue, or if you just got the debuff a lot and had to run(didnt go as deep as to check that). But it seems like for the most part, you should be able to get in another 20% of casts. Best advice I could give is to just spam that fucking starfire button man. In 6 minutes with no spriest or shaman, you should easily be able to burn through a mana pool, even chain chugging pots. There are a couple gear upgrades I could suggest, but for the most part you're dps loss is from not casting enough.
My latency runs between 250-400ms and has spikes much of the time. Would stopcasting work in this situation. I'm reading in some forums that it still would work.
Im not really sure. I sit at 100 latency most of the time. Latency probably effects it a bit, but I dont think a stopcasting mod helps anymore, I think you just have to spam the button towards the end of the cast.
Are those (wws) numbers representative for T6 Level Moonkins ?
So there is really no chance for a Moonkin to even come close to the damage of Destro-Locks, BM Hunters, Rogues or Enh. Shamen ?
What about those 2,500 - 2,600 DPS numbers in optimal Moonkin gear someone posted some pages before ?
(any wws logs of a moonkin with more than 2,000 dps, whithout damage boosting "boss-fight-mechanics" ?)
I am a T4/T5 Moonkin just wanting to know what to expect in the future :-)
Assuming that your current gear is your raiding gear, you could make a few tweaks. None are large but you're on Brutallus, every bit is important.
You are over the hit cap by 9-10, these stats are 100% wasted.
For many fights you'd get more out of Darkmoon Card: Crusade than Icon.
If you're in a group with a few destro locks, maybe a mage or two, then the overall raid dps will be higher if you use the Idol of the Raven Goddess (0.9% to crit aura) rather than the starfire one. If it's affliction locks or non-casters this isn't true, of course.
If you're looking for 2500 dps as a moonkin, you're going to be unhappy.
I'd advise dropping a few points out of Subtlety and getting iFF. IFF is, if not the #1, at least in the top 3 reasons to bring a moonkin to a raid. It shows that you are serious about maximizing raid performance and not your own numbers. A lot of guild leaders/raid leaders have no idea the talent exists.
Quartz - WowAce Wiki
If you have constant latency, this will help a lot. If you actually have lag spikes, there really isn't anything in the world that can help you since you'll be at the mercy of the spikes. stopcasting macros will do more harm than good if you do have lag spikes.
From the WWS on the best attempt, the fight was 5'47". I ignored drums of battle, but both of you got 3 buffs from it, so relative benefit should be roughly the same. I did account for his bloodlust that you did not get. You spent about 290 seconds casting, where the top warlock spent about 331 seconds, so if you match his casting time, you should have 14% more damage. Assuming you have random lag spikes and you just mash your starfire button as fast as you can, you should get a 7% damage increase. One thing to consider is what addons you are using. Some addons induce a ton of traffic and for 25 man raids it can slow you down A LOT, and can actually cause spikes. Pitbull's VisualHeal, CombatText etc are some of the biggest offenders from what I use. Damage meters too. I disable a lot of addons I normally use when going on 25 man raids.
The only other thing I noticed was 0 Icon of the Silver Crescent uses.
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Originally Posted by Moginheden
Can this fix be implemented into 0.81 or something soon? I'm not sure enough of the code to alter it myself and I'm trying to decide between items like [Boots of Incantations] and [Footpads of Madness] but I'm not sure if I trust the spreadsheet since it's haste vs hit.
Just change the * - to / + when it gets to the haste mod. There are 10 squares you need to do this for.
However, the difference between 1/(1+x) and 1*(1-x) is very small until you get a lot of haste. If you have 10% haste(158 rating), the difference is 1%. It goes to about 4% when you hit 20% haste(315 rating), but it's still "good enough" I think.
---
Ef: For some reason that I don't know, on the Chest Slot, Potent Pyrestone(and the PVP equivalent) gives me 4 int 6 damage instead of 5 crit 6 damage.
Thanks for all the feedback. For raids I normally have Hex and the Crusade deck equipped which is why you there are no Icon uses. As far as addons go I have no idea which ones could be heavy traffic ones. I try and raid with as few addons as possible and I made sure they weren't hogs.
I have a little bit of problem. I was following the thread incorrectly in itemizing. I currently have buffed spell damage of 1490 and 271 haste rating. According to Adoriele's spreadsheet my breakpoint for epic gems is 1717 spell damage. Does this mean i should drop haste rating for spell damage? My assumption that after 1372 spell damage haste to spell damage ratio was 1.2:1 is obviously wrong. It would be nice if someone could explain this diminishing returns to haste for me.
I have a little bit of problem. I was following the thread incorrectly in itemizing. I currently have buffed spell damage of 1490 and 271 haste rating. According to Adoriele's spreadsheet my breakpoint for epic gems is 1717 spell damage. Does this mean i should drop haste rating for spell damage? My assumption that after 1372 spell damage haste to spell damage ratio was 1.2:1 is obviously wrong. It would be nice if someone could explain this diminishing returns to haste for me.
No, that's correct (though it's 1392, not 1372). 1392 + 1.2*271 ~= 1718. In other words, you're adding ~100 spell damage, but almost 3 times as much spell haste. So yeah, to get better benefit from your gear, I'd re-gem for less haste.
Although, from the looks of it, the difference is marginal. I'll just gem the new gear that I get with more focus on spell damage. I don't think it's worth it to totally re-gem all of my gear for such a marginal difference. Ef's spreadsheet still shows that haste > spell damage with my current stats, so it's a bit confusing trying to juggle between your spreadsheet and Ef's. I haven't looked at Ef's formulas in detail but it seems like he uses a more straightforward model with no DR on haste. Also, I feel like procs such as icon/idol of unseen moon/destruction pot play a role in increasing average spell damage over the fight bringing spell damage closer to where I need to be with the gear, making it less important to regem the gear. Although.. I do use drums of battle as well. Things get a little more complicated to model when there's so much procs going on ;(.
Anyway, thanks a lot for the help Adoriele.
Although, from the looks of it, the difference is marginal. I'll just gem the new gear that I get with more focus on spell damage. I don't think it's worth it to totally re-gem all of my gear for such a marginal difference. Ef's spreadsheet still shows that haste > spell damage with my current stats, so it's a bit confusing trying to juggle between your spreadsheet and Ef's. I haven't looked at Ef's formulas in detail but it seems like he uses a more straightforward model with no DR on haste. Also, I feel like procs such as icon/idol of unseen moon/destruction pot play a role in increasing average spell damage over the fight bringing spell damage closer to where I need to be with the gear, making it less important to regem the gear. Although.. I do use drums of battle as well. Things get a little more complicated to model when there's so much procs going on ;(.
Anyway, thanks a lot for the help Adoriele.
Ef's spreadsheet has a bugged version of the Haste model (it got pointed out earlier in the thread) which values haste more than it should be, and gets worse with higher values of haste. With your stats, it's valuing haste about 1.5% more than it should be which, while not a whole heck of a lot, does make a difference. You're right that it's not enough of a problem to re-gem your whole gearset (especially given the number of Lionseyes you have, hoo boy), and procs will work to cover the issue decently. Lastly, my model focuses entirely on pure DPS, with no account for mana implications, while Ef's tries to incorporate the whole fight. Other than the haste issue, if you're running out of mana during a fight I'd trust his over mine.
Speaking of, I've attached an updated version with values for Spell hit =D Also included an 'effective rating' calculator. Plug in the percentage, and you'll get the corresponding effective rating for all three rating-based stats. Useful for taking values from the character sheet and adding them in. Note that the sheet at this point does NOT cap your hit, as that's gonna be pretty tricky to accomplish for determining partial benefit for the last point of Hit. To that end, only trust the results if your final effective hit rating is under 202 (152 if you have BoP).
[edit] Had a bad calculation (or two) for Hit benefit in there. Oops >.<
[edit 2] And yeah, did it again. Should now properly update gem benefits with added hit rating
Last edited by Adoriele : 04/29/08 at 8:27 PM.
Reason: Take three
Brutallus kill from tonight. Still pretty new to moonkin and I got two burns, so I figure I can still do much better.
For me, the stat equiv sheet values haste and spell damage relatively the same but it favors haste as i factor in more buffs. In general I have been socketing pyrestones in red/yellow slots and the two seasprays i use for meta requirements. I will probably end up regemming to incorporate some spinels and shadowsongs to replace the seasprays once the badge vendor opens.
Is there anyway possible to track ashtongue uptime via addons? WWS is showing i gained the buff 15x so that would be an average of ~38 spell damage assuming it never refreshed itself. I can manually browse the log but that seems rather tedious.
edit- Actually went ahead and browsed combat log, trinket had 60% uptime for me so basically a 90 spell damage trinket? wtb hex head.
From what I can see, this sheet just tells you the +damage breakpoint where either hit or haste becomes equivalent for the given gem right?
The haste calcs look questionable to me, but I can't really follow the mindset for the math. First thing is for haste:
Hybrid rare is: =(4*I4*(1 + I7*B7) - 4*I7*658)/(4*I4*I7)
Maybe it should be: =(5*I4*(1 + I7*B7) - 4*I7*658)/(4*I4*I7)
This applies to hit too, but haste has a cleaner formula.
And then, when you compare the hybrid haste and pure epic haste, the numbers will always be the same since the equation essentially simplifies to 2*Z/2 for the pure epic, and just Z for the hybrid. Is this logic correct?
From what I can see, this sheet just tells you the +damage breakpoint where either hit or haste becomes equivalent for the given gem right?
The haste calcs look questionable to me, but I can't really follow the mindset for the math. First thing is for haste:
Hybrid rare is: =(4*I4*(1 + I7*B7) - 4*I7*658)/(4*I4*I7)
Maybe it should be: =(5*I4*(1 + I7*B7) - 4*I7*658)/(4*I4*I7)
This applies to hit too, but haste has a cleaner formula.
And then, when you compare the hybrid haste and pure epic haste, the numbers will always be the same since the equation essentially simplifies to 2*Z/2 for the pure epic, and just Z for the hybrid. Is this logic correct?
Yes, that's all the sheet tells you with respect to gems, though it's also telling you what the effective +damage of each stat is given your current gear. The reason it's 4:4 instead of 5:4 is because I'm looking at the difference between the two. Both have 5 spell damage already, so you're making the choice between 4 Haste and 4 spell damage. Similar for the Epic gems. And yes, for Haste the numbers always come out the same. They don't for Hit, and won't for Crit once I get it added in, so I decided to just leave the formula in.
for reference, the haste gem calc falls out like this:
Brutallus kill from tonight. Still pretty new to moonkin and I got two burns, so I figure I can still do much better.
For me, the stat equiv sheet values haste and spell damage relatively the same but it favors haste as i factor in more buffs. In general I have been socketing pyrestones in red/yellow slots and the two seasprays i use for meta requirements. I will probably end up regemming to incorporate some spinels and shadowsongs to replace the seasprays once the badge vendor opens.
Is there anyway possible to track ashtongue uptime via addons? WWS is showing i gained the buff 15x so that would be an average of ~38 spell damage assuming it never refreshed itself. I can manually browse the log but that seems rather tedious.
edit- Actually went ahead and browsed combat log, trinket had 60% uptime for me so basically a 90 spell damage trinket? wtb hex head.
Does no one else see how amazing this is? 1874 DPS _WITH_ IFF in his spell rotation? And he got 2 burns over the fight, meaning his dps could have been even higher?
I'm a bit new to really looking through WWS parses, so I'm not finding all the options I'd like so far but, I don't understand how you arrive at any of these 3 conclusions?
Originally Posted by mader
Wow Web Stats
Is there anyway possible to track ashtongue uptime via addons? WWS is showing i gained the buff 15x so that would be an average of ~38 spell damage assuming it never refreshed itself. I can manually browse the log but that seems rather tedious.
I saw 15 procs of Remulos, over a 353seconds battle. Now, being generous and assuming no overlaps (like you, I don't really feel like reading through the log in that much detail, it's pretty long and the filters options are pretty weak ; ; )
15 procs * 8secs/proc = 120 secs @ 150dmg over a 353secs fight. That means, on average 120secs/353secs * 150dmg =
51dmg. That would be the rough value of the trinket for that battle. How did you obtain this '38dmg' value?
Originally Posted by mader
edit- Actually went ahead and browsed combat log, trinket had 60% uptime for me so basically a 90 spell damage trinket? wtb hex head.
Where did you get the 60% uptime from? Was this in WWS somewhere? Wouldn't it be 120secs / 353 secs = 34% uptime?
Lastly, assuming it was 60% uptime, which would give a 90dmg estimate, it would be better than the hex shrunken head, which should have something close to 88dmg estimate for a 5.53mins fight.
I'm a bit new to really looking through WWS parses, so I'm not finding all the options I'd like so far but, I don't understand how you arrive at any of these 3 conclusions?
I saw 15 procs of Remulos, over a 353seconds battle. Now, being generous and assuming no overlaps (like you, I don't really feel like reading through the log in that much detail, it's pretty long and the filters options are pretty weak ; ; )
15 procs * 8secs/proc = 120 secs @ 150dmg over a 353secs fight. That means, on average 120secs/353secs * 150dmg =
51dmg. That would be the rough value of the trinket for that battle. How did you obtain this '38dmg' value?
Where did you get the 60% uptime from? Was this in WWS somewhere? Wouldn't it be 120secs / 353 secs = 34% uptime?
Lastly, assuming it was 60% uptime, which would give a 90dmg estimate, it would be better than the hex shrunken head, which should have something close to 88dmg estimate for a 5.53mins fight.
Was using 6s per proc instead of 8, it was late :\
Was also using 360 seconds for fight duration.
I basically browsed my combat log and looked for when i gained the buff and when it dropped, there were periods where it was up for 20+ seconds and several where it died after 8.
4/29 19:11:01.156 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos"
4/29 19:11:22.421 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos" 21.3 seconds
4/29 19:11:34.906 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos"
4/29 19:11:59.375 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos" 24.5 seconds
4/29 19:11:59.781 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos"
4/29 19:12:17.828 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos" 18.1 seconds
4/29 19:12:18.625 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos"
4/29 19:12:26.281 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos" 7.66 seconds
4/29 19:12:29.500 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos"
4/29 19:13:00.031 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos" 30.5 seconds
4/29 19:13:00.421 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos"
4/29 19:13:08.453 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos" 8.03 seconds
4/29 19:13:30.515 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos" 8.03 seconds
4/29 19:13:38.546 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos"
4/29 19:13:44.578 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos"
4/29 19:13:52.203 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos" 7.63 seconds
4/29 19:13:54.609 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos"
4/29 19:14:02.234 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos" 7.63 seconds
4/29 19:14:11.484 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos"
4/29 19:14:19.109 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos" 7.63 seconds
4/29 19:14:31.140 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos"
4/29 19:14:38.781 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos" 7.64 seconds
4/29 19:14:51.218 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos"
4/29 19:15:12.093 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos" 20.9 seconds
4/29 19:15:36.718 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos"
4/29 19:16:11.906 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos" 35.2 seconds
4/29 19:16:12.312 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos"
4/29 19:16:22.343 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos" 10.0 seconds
4/29 19:16:26.765 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos"
4/29 19:16:34.421 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Kenpachi""Blessing of Remulos" 7.66 seconds
(222.4/353)*150=94.5 avg spell damage which would put it slightly above hex head. I just hate proc based stuff and would rather control it than relying on good rng rolls. feel free to check my math, i'm generally pretty lazy with it.
Yes 1874 is very impressive w/ 2 burns on brutallus, Id like to see his numbers compared to boomkins who get more Sunwell items in the future (Sunflare, sunfire robes, amice, gloves of tyris power..etc) so we can compare the numbers of using 4 t5 and 4 t6 vs straight 4 t6 and Sunwell items
04/27/08, 1:20 PM
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