I have a semi- on-topic question that arose a few minutes ago.
Moonfire has a DD Coefficient of 14.87%, and a DoT Coefficient of 52.24%. With 2t6 we observe a 5th tick, at the same amount of damage as a regular Moonfire. Is it safe to say that 2t6 increases the DoT coefficient by 25% of itself?
What I'm asking is, does 2t6 increase the DoT coefficient to 65.3%, for a total coefficient of 80.17%?
I have a semi- on-topic question that arose a few minutes ago.
Moonfire has a DD Coefficient of 14.87%, and a DoT Coefficient of 52.24%. With 2t6 we observe a 5th tick, at the same amount of damage as a regular Moonfire. Is it safe to say that 2t6 increases the DoT coefficient by 25% of itself?
What I'm asking is, does 2t6 increase the DoT coefficient to 65.3%, for a total coefficient of 80.17%?
without 2T6 u get 4 ticks with a 13.02% coefficient each, totalling to 4x 13.02% = 52.09% on the DoT part
with 2T6 u get 5 ticks with a 13.02% coefficient each, totalling to 5x 13.02% = 65.12% on the DoT part
together with the 14.95% from the DD that's 80.07% total. but keep in mind - DD can crit, DoT not.
Or set the fight to be so short that mana can't be an issue. Or, use Rawr's listing of Raw DPS, which is DPS without mana limitations.
Setting the fight too short is not recommended, because I have seen personally that it is STILL possible to be OOM in the calculations even with a fight length as short as 1 min. I know that doesn't sound logical, but it's true. Therefore, the "officially supported" method of eliminating mana questions is to use the new Raw DPS feature.
The current spreadsheet you have up seems to work rather well. I think the only issues I have with it are that it doesn't have the updated mana regen, and that it doesn't seem to be able to use my trinkets and drums. With my trinkets used in cunjunction with my drums, I think my wrath comes out to do more dps.
The current spreadsheet you have up seems to work rather well. I think the only issues I have with it are that it doesn't have the updated mana regen, and that it doesn't seem to be able to use my trinkets and drums. With my trinkets used in cunjunction with my drums, I think my IS,MF,wrathx(6-7) rotation comes out to do more dps.
Ok so my guild is wanting me to go imp FF. Thats fine and dandy. I just want some clarification. I know that FF and Imp FF does not stack. However I was under the impression that if a feral pulls with Feral FF that my imp FF would not over write the efects of his FF. Even though I may see the buff under his portrait that doesn't neccisarily mean he's getting the effect of the 3%hit.
The current spreadsheet you have up seems to work rather well. I think the only issues I have with it are that it doesn't have the updated mana regen, and that it doesn't seem to be able to use my trinkets and drums. With my trinkets used in cunjunction with my drums, I think my IS,MF,wrathx(6-7) rotation comes out to do more dps.
Today 3:07 AM
Base DPS for Wrath is higher than base DPS for SF, even at 100% crit (405/1.5 > 588/2.5).
If the spreadsheet is showing SF DPS higher than Wrath DPS, it is because SF is scaling better than Wrath (CoS, latency, ...).
Your trinkets and drums won't change that relationship unless they are Wrath-specific or Nature-specific, or are actually lowering +spell or +crit ;-)
Edit: If a spreadsheet is choosing SF purely because of mana issues, and the spreadsheet is using the old mana formulas (or you're using drums of resto ...), it is possible that Wrath will be better for you.
The current spreadsheet you have up seems to work rather well. I think the only issues I have with it are that it doesn't have the updated mana regen, and that it doesn't seem to be able to use my trinkets and drums. With my trinkets used in cunjunction with my drums, I think my IS,MF,wrathx(6-7) rotation comes out to do more dps.
If you take a look at Rawr, it will show you what your non-mana-limited max DPS spell cycle is. For an early to mid T4-level boomkin, that's usually IS/MF/Wx7, whereas mana considerations at that gear level usually restrict you to IS/SFx4 for longer fights. Starfire has a higher scaling coefficient with spell damage, also, to add to the poster above me.
ImpFF will overwrite Feral FF, the icon remains the same and the text won't change (same as when you're buffs don't short ImpMotW benefits), but the feral that put the initial FF up will see his buff go away because it'll no longer have the timer on it for him/her, while you will see a timer on yours. If the Feral tries putting FF up while yours is still there he/she will get an error saying that a more powerful spell is active.
ImpFF will overwrite Feral FF, the icon remains the same and the text won't change (same as when you're buffs don't short ImpMotW benefits), but the feral that put the initial FF up will see his buff go away because it'll no longer have the timer on it for him/her, while you will see a timer on yours. If the Feral tries putting FF up while yours is still there he/she will get an error saying that a more powerful spell is active.
You'll can also tell which are yours by looking at the debuffs\dots, yours will always be first (top row, left side). Also yours debuffs\DOTs will slowly gray out, motion picture style (i assume this effect is blizz and not one of my addons). Better yet, I'd suggest just getting quartz, it will put timers right above your cast bar so you can see when spells are expiring and when they are overwrote\break.
I adjusted the latency like you guys suggested, and just tossed whatever mana regen was missing into the shadow priest, and it comes out right now. It turns out that IS, MF, Wrathx7 is the best cycle for my druid. Thanks for your help. And about the gear, my gear is actually between late t4 and mid t5 unless I'm mistaken, as oppose to early-mid t4.
One of the things that concerned me with the spreadsheet is that it seems to want to drop IS if there is more than 0.1 latency. Is IS really not worth it unless your connection and speed is near perfect or when you want the debuff it gives the boss?
One of the things that concerned me with the spreadsheet is that it seems to want to drop IS if there is more than 0.1 latency. Is IS really not worth it unless your connection and speed is near perfect or when you want the debuff it gives the boss?
From my understanding, at your level of gear, you're approaching the point where the damage return from IS is no longer worth the global cooldown it takes to apply it. If you're using it for the debuff effect, of course you should keep using it, but be aware that it gains no bonuses from talents and will be out-scaled by your direct damage spells fairly quickly.
Ok, so im sorry if this question has been answered somewhere in this gigantic thread lol. I have a few questions though as my guild ventures farther into BT.
While browsing this forum a bit I found someone saying you should not use Moonfire unless you have a shadow priest because it uses to much mana, is this true? I usually never find a problem with it directly. I may run out of mana occationally (Usually Alar fight, phase 1) but I never figured moonfire is what would make or break it. And I would think it would lower my DPS.
Also, I read something about IS not scaling well after T5 gear. im at 1383 spell dmg raid buffed, should I drop IS? Last night I did some testing in TK (we cleared the first 4 bosses of hyjal and decided to kill kael), and I didnt notice much from taking out IS, but moonkin DPS can always seem a bit skewed to me depending on crits. Im at 2k dps sometimes, other times im at 800 :P
My biggest reason for coming to this thread is to find out about spell haste. I read a post saying 'if it has spell haste, the worste that will happen is nothing' and I found this to be untrue. Us boomkins love our crit, and rely crits to increase our DPS amazingly (Huge numbers + reduced casting time = win :P) so if you replace a belt with just spell haste over a belt with crit. . . its taking a step back if anything. So do we want spell haste, and if so what good does it actually do?
While browsing this forum a bit I found someone saying you should not use Moonfire unless you have a shadow priest because it uses to much mana, is this true? I usually never find a problem with it directly. I may run out of mana occationally (Usually Alar fight, phase 1) but I never figured moonfire is what would make or break it. And I would think it would lower my DPS.
MF boosts your DPS. If you have the mana, use it.
Also, I read something about IS not scaling well after T5 gear. im at 1383 spell dmg raid buffed, should I drop IS? Last night I did some testing in TK (we cleared the first 4 bosses of hyjal and decided to kill kael), and I didnt notice much from taking out IS, but moonkin DPS can always seem a bit skewed to me depending on crits. Im at 2k dps sometimes, other times im at 800 :P
At 1383 +spell, and 23% crit in MK, Wrath does about 20 more damage, on average, than IS, with the same cast time. Not a huge number, and IS uses much less mana (plus providing the debuff).
My biggest reason for coming to this thread is to find out about spell haste. I read a post saying 'if it has spell haste, the worste that will happen is nothing' and I found this to be untrue. Us boomkins love our crit, and rely crits to increase our DPS amazingly (Huge numbers + reduced casting time = win :P) so if you replace a belt with just spell haste over a belt with crit. . . its taking a step back if anything. So do we want spell haste, and if so what good does it actually do?
Haste means same damage in less time. You can use the leftover time for even more damage, assuming you've still got mana.
Hit (until cap) > +spell > crit
for Moonkin PvE. A point of Haste is worth about a point of +Spell when your +Spell is about 1200 more than your haste rating (the raw crossover is about 1100, but that assumes no lag, pure SF spam and no mana issues). Above that limit a point of haste is better than a point of spell, but not by much. Below that limit stack spell.
A point of crit doesn't become worth as much as a point of spell until much later (+spell at 1600 or so, and at least 100 times as high as your crit% IIRC). Crits are nice, and NG is cool, but the math says that point-for-point, +spell is better.
At 1383 +spell, and 23% crit in MK, Wrath does about 20 more damage, on average, than IS, with the same cast time. Not a huge number, and IS uses much less mana (plus providing the debuff).
Haste means same damage in less time. You can use the leftover time for even more damage, assuming you've still got mana.
Hit (until cap) > +spell > crit
for Moonkin PvE. A point of Haste is worth about a point of +Spell when your +Spell is about 1200 more than your haste rating (the raw crossover is about 1100, but that assumes no lag, pure SF spam and no mana issues). Above that limit a point of haste is better than a point of spell, but not by much. Below that limit stack spell.
A point of crit doesn't become worth as much as a point of spell until much later (+spell at 1600 or so, and at least 100 times as high as your crit% IIRC). Crits are nice, and NG is cool, but the math says that point-for-point, +spell is better.
You got in while I was replying, so I'll just mention that almost all of this is correct. In my experience, past 2.4, once you're even minorly into T5 content there's no reason not to use MF to some degree. It's our best DPS spell (Large amount of damage for a single GCD, assuming you allow the DoT to run to completion, chance to crit on the DD), scales nicely, and gets a nice perk from 2T6. It's also a good replacement for IS which, as Erdluf mentioned, scales fairly poorly, and still allows you to access the 4T5 bonus. You'll have to chug pots like no other, and keep your innervate for yourself, unless you get the Spriest, but your guild really should be asking that of all of your DPS anyway.
As for Haste, it's almost always better than crit, by a factor of 2:1. Yes, if you have a metric asston of Haste, and no crit, it's possible that crit will eventually be better, but for all relevant debates, crit is our worst stat. Something nice to have, but nowhere near worth gearing toward like Haste is. This may change in WotLK if some of the talent changes go through, but that's not worth worrying about anytime soon.
As for Haste, it's almost always better than crit, by a factor of 2:1. Yes, if you have a metric asston of Haste, and no crit, it's possible that crit will eventually be better, but for all relevant debates, crit is our worst stat. Something nice to have, but nowhere near worth gearing toward like Haste is. This may change in WotLK if some of the talent changes go through, but that's not worth worrying about anytime soon.
whoa, how is haste better than crit? I know if I could stack more crit than my DPS could go through the roof.
whoa, how is haste better than crit? I know if I could stack more crit than my DPS could go through the roof.
It would not "go through the roof". Crit is very expensive from an itemization standpoint - it takes a LOT of crit to add any appreciable amount to your crit chance. In addition to this, a 1% increase in crit will not add 1% to your dps. I don't have time to do the math to demonstrate how much it would improve by, though. I can tell you, however, that 1% haste will give you a 1% dps increase, period.
whoa, how is haste better than crit? I know if I could stack more crit than my DPS could go through the roof.
Both Crit (ignoring Nature's Grace for the moment) and Haste multiply your DPS by (1 + kR), k being the rating coefficient, R being the rating itself. Starting out, Haste has a larger coefficient, 1/1576 instead of 1/2208. Beyond that, you normally start gearing from a standpoint of 0 haste, whereas crit starts with a kR of about 20%, which means that the relative benefit of haste is much larger when you start adding it [(1+k)/1 > (1+.2+k)/(1+.2)]. Nature's grace works to mediate this, but it doesn't help by far. Having 100% crit would give you a constant 314 haste assuming you had none already, but 100% crit costs, using a base of 20%, 1260 rating. I don't know about you, but I'd rather spend 314 rating to get the same effect instead of 1260.
[edit]
Originally Posted by thedopefishlives
I can tell you, however, that 1% haste will give you a 1% dps increase, period.
Yeah, 1% haste isn't a 1% DPS increase either, for the exact same reason that 1% crit isn't (again, ignoring Nature's Grace).
Yeah, 1% haste isn't a 1% DPS increase either, for the exact same reason that 1% crit isn't (again, ignoring Nature's Grace).
Whoopsy. Just goes to show you why I should take the time to do the math. I'll work out the incremental equations and edit this post to show how much it is (and I'll ignore NG for the purposes of simplicity).
Whoopsy. Just goes to show you why I should take the time to do the math. I'll work out the incremental equations and edit this post to show how much it is (and I'll ignore NG for the purposes of simplicity).
Nah, not necessary. The relative benefit of 1 rating for either haste or Crit is k/(1+kR), or for 1% it's .01/(1+P). With 0 rating or percent already, yes, it's a 1% benefit, but it decreases. At 99%, 1% is only worth .01/1.99 = .5025%, just over half the original benefit.
By looking at the 80c spreadsheet as it comes (before adjusting it to my gear), it appears there is a point where haste > hit (replace a reckless pyrestone, +5haste+6dmg, with a veiled pyrostone,+5hit+6dmg). Note that the setup is not hit capped so it's not that unless I'm missing something.
I'm curious as to what point this is, but I don't really feel like researching for the answer and hope someone else already has?
Editing to add the quote about haste vs crit
Hit (until cap) > +spell > crit
for Moonkin PvE. A point of Haste is worth about a point of +Spell when your +Spell is about 1200 more than your haste rating (the raw crossover is about 1100, but that assumes no lag, pure SF spam and no mana issues). Above that limit a point of haste is better than a point of spell, but not by much. Below that limit stack spell.
A point of crit doesn't become worth as much as a point of spell until much later (+spell at 1600 or so, and at least 100 times as high as your crit% IIRC). Crits are nice, and NG is cool, but the math says that point-for-point, +spell is better.
EDIT: I have another problem with the 80c spreadsheet. Changing the 7stam5haste gem in the Thunderheart Footwraps to a 5haste6dmg should in my mind increase dps--we've kept the same amount of haste, lost stam which does nothing for dps for moonkins, and added 6 dmg--so why does the spreadsheet show less dps with that swap?
By looking at the 80c spreadsheet as it comes (before adjusting it to my gear), it appears there is a point where haste > hit (replace a reckless pyrestone, +5haste+6dmg, with a veiled pyrostone,+5hit+6dmg). Note that the setup is not hit capped so it's not that unless I'm missing something.
I'm curious as to what point this is, but I don't really feel like researching for the answer and hope someone else already has?
Editing to add the quote about haste vs crit
EDIT: I have another problem with the 80c spreadsheet. Changing the 7stam5haste gem in the Thunderheart Footwraps to a 5haste6dmg should in my mind increase dps--we've kept the same amount of haste, lost stam which does nothing for dps for moonkins, and added 6 dmg--so why does the spreadsheet show less dps with that swap?
Yeah, given SF spam, I can't get Haste to beat Hit before hit caps. I don't have rotations modeled yet, but those would generally favor Hit, as haste doesn't affect DoTs very much. How much of a difference are you noticing?
As for the gem in Thunderheart, two things come to mind. Is the socket Blue, and if not, how many other blue gems do you have equipped? You may be deactivating either the socket bonus or the CSD Meta gem.
Yeah, given SF spam, I can't get Haste to beat Hit before hit caps. I don't have rotations modeled yet, but those would generally favor Hit, as haste doesn't affect DoTs very much. How much of a difference are you noticing?
As for the gem in Thunderheart, two things come to mind. Is the socket Blue, and if not, how many other blue gems do you have equipped? You may be deactivating either the socket bonus or the CSD Meta gem.
I'm just looking at the numbers the spreadsheet is giving. Download the 80c version and don't change anything, just look at what's already there. The max dps is MFx2SFx13, ~1932dps, hit is at 118, haste 366, etc. If you change anyone of the reckless pyrostones to a veiled pyrostone (same color gem, both with 6dmg, just 5 haste vs 5 hit) you will see a decrease in the max dps(~1925).
This leads me to assume with that setup haste is worth more than hit.
With a less highend gear setup hit gives more dps than haste. I'm trying to find out where the split is. Edit: I think I know what it issue is...it's probably set up for 3% elemental shammy hit bonus...yep
duh, the meta gem is what I was missing with the second question I had, thanks.
so im at 171 hit rating. Not gemmed or chanted for it, it just happens the items I have aquired give me such.
I would like to know what amount of haste I should shoot for, and if I should try to maintain a certain amount of crit in the process?
Also I was talking to another boomkin earlier and they told me that at 132 hit rating they only get resisted 0.8%, so should I shoot for about that instead of 152 to give me that leeway?
Hey, this is kind of a late reply to an earlier post regarding AutoHotKeys, but a Blizzard poster has stated that Software AND Hardware that simulate multiple keypresses are bannable.
Yeah, that's definitely a violation of our policies.
Basically, anything that circumvents our normal Macro rules, and automates successive key strokes is not okay. Basically, a cast sequence macro is fine, as each function requires a key stroke.
Something like this? Never okay, as a single press creates many keystrokes in succession in addition to several other prohibited functions (pauses in hardware functions, for example).
05/18/08, 9:12 PM
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