Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet - Page 61

Goedel · 03/06/08, 3:44 PM

Originally Posted by Lorewanderer

For point 1, that's based on the 2.4 spirit changes. On live servers you'll still want Dreamstate. If the spirit regen changes go live as they are, that's when dreamstate will become the inferior choice. Naturally you'll be able to get both with some sacrifices but Intensity should suffice if you have access to a shadow priest.

(e) Using the spreadsheet on the spirit mechanics thread and using my personal stats, I'd get 121 mp5 from 3/3 Intensity and 56 mp5 from 3/3 Dreamstate, with 450 int/253 spi unbuffed. If you want the answer as it pertains to you, go get the spreadsheet and plug in your own numbers. Given that my numbers for int/spi are reasonably close to what many raiding moonkin will have, I think it is safe enough to say that it will usually be the case.

Actually, it's not only based on the 2.4 spirit changes. Since the increase of Intensity from {5%, 10%, 15%} to {10%, 20%, 30%} in ?patch 2.2?, it has provided more mana regeneration than Dreamstate for likely values of int and spi. It may be feasible now for some druids to have an int and spi make Dreamstate more valuable, though not by much. In 2.4 it will not be possible to reverse them with any gear set even close to realistic; the difference will be vast.

• Adoriele · 03/06/08, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by Goedel

Actually, it's not only based on the 2.4 spirit changes. Since the increase of Intensity from {5%, 10%, 15%} to {10%, 20%, 30%} in ?patch 2.2?, it has provided more mana regeneration than Dreamstate for likely values of int and spi. It may be feasible now for some druids to have an int and spi make Dreamstate more valuable, though not by much. In 2.4 it will not be possible to reverse them with any gear set even close to realistic; the difference will be vast.

Intensity gives more than DS now, yes, but not so much more that DS is unnecessary. It's currently better to have both. On 2.4, though, it may be possible to drop DS, as it will be unnecessary, allowing more points in Subtlety without dropping IFF, BoP, or FoN, ala Druid Talents.

I'm going to play with it a bit on the PTR, right now it depends on the fight whether I need the extra mana or not (depends on if I have a Spriest, too). I can down Hydross without any extra regen (and no Spriest), but Lurker takes my innervate and about 3 pots to pull off correctly.

Astrylian · 03/06/08, 8:37 PM

Rawr Beta 12 posted!

DOWNLOAD: https://www.codeplex.com/Release/Pro...eleaseId=11411

Beta 12:
* Rawr now includes models for Moonkins, Mages, and Warlocks!
* Many more stats are tracked about items, for use in new and upcoming models.
* Fixed a bug in the options for Cat, so that it updates the label for the value of expose weakness.
* Icons now pull from the more reliable wowarmory.com instead of the old flakey armory.worldofwarcraft.com.
* You can now safely run multiple copies of Rawr at the same time by duplicating Rawr's folder. Each running copy of Rawr must be in its own folder, with its own cache xml files.
* Fixed some bugs that would cause Rawr to crash.
* The Splash screen has finally been redone! It now has a background image, and an icon for each model that is loaded, along with the version #s of each model, Rawr's UI, and Base.
* Tooltips on the calculations should really last a long time now, for everyone, I hope.
* The ItemCache should save faster, load faster, and take up alot less space, per item.
* There's a menu item now, to reload the character data from the Armory for the current character.
* The Projectile and Projectile Bag slots will now be hidden if they don't apply to the current model.
* Improved how Rawr handles requests for data from the Armory.
* When unable to access the Armory will now handle it much more gracefully. If you see blank icons, anywhere, that's probably the case.
* There's now an options dialog. More will come in there, but for now, there's customizable proxy settings. If you were previously unable to use Rawr due to being behind a proxy that was different from your IE settings, or required different authentication, give this a try.

mesh7 · 03/07/08, 7:53 AM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Rawr Beta 12 posted!

DOWNLOAD: https://www.codeplex.com/Release/Pro...eleaseId=11411

Beta 12:
* Rawr now includes models for Moonkins, Mages, and Warlocks!
* Many more stats are tracked about items, for use in new and upcoming models.
* Fixed a bug in the options for Cat, so that it updates the label for the value of expose weakness.
* Icons now pull from the more reliable wowarmory.com instead of the old flakey armory.worldofwarcraft.com.
* You can now safely run multiple copies of Rawr at the same time by duplicating Rawr's folder. Each running copy of Rawr must be in its own folder, with its own cache xml files.
* Fixed some bugs that would cause Rawr to crash.
* The Splash screen has finally been redone! It now has a background image, and an icon for each model that is loaded, along with the version #s of each model, Rawr's UI, and Base.
* Tooltips on the calculations should really last a long time now, for everyone, I hope.
* The ItemCache should save faster, load faster, and take up alot less space, per item.
* There's a menu item now, to reload the character data from the Armory for the current character.
* The Projectile and Projectile Bag slots will now be hidden if they don't apply to the current model.
* Improved how Rawr handles requests for data from the Armory.
* When unable to access the Armory will now handle it much more gracefully. If you see blank icons, anywhere, that's probably the case.
* There's now an options dialog. More will come in there, but for now, there's customizable proxy settings. If you were previously unable to use Rawr due to being behind a proxy that was different from your IE settings, or required different authentication, give this a try.

Under set bonuses, the T5 4pc bonus doesn't even work......makes comparing most moonkin gear and set choices competely inaccurate.

Appreciate all the hard work though, kudos for making this program!

Hrank · 03/07/08, 9:28 AM

I may have found a more accurate way to formulate my question about spell rotations versus spell damage levels.
There are milestones in a character's progression, so I might as well use them to articulate the thought. Just occured to me to formulate as follows, but I'll use the spreadsheet to crunch it too. However I'm interested in opinions as well as in raw numbers.

Spell rotation at gear milestones:

What should a moonkin's max damage rotation be at:

Dungeon 3 (Moonglade) set level? (can include a limited number of heroic or lower Karazhan gear)

Tier 4 level (or badge and reputation/heroic equivalents)

Tier 5 level (or non-tier equivalents)

Tier 6 level (with and without Sunwell Plateau gear)

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate the reasons why a specific spell is dropped in a rotation in favor of another. If there are alternatives that are about equally good, please indicate both.

Efejel · 03/07/08, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Hrank

Dungeon 3 (Moonglade) set level? (can include a limited number of heroic or lower Karazhan gear)

IS, Sfx4 on raid bosses
MF, IS, Wx7 on trash
Add MF to boss rotation if an SPriest & Curse of Shadows are present or it's a short boss fight
Use Wrath when Stormstrike is up unless there's an elemental shaman to use up charges

Tier 4 level (or badge and reputation/heroic equivalents)

MF, IS, Sfx3/4 on bosses
MF, IS, Wx7 on trash
Drop MF from boss rotations on mana-intensive fights even at this gear level
Mana permitting, use Wrath instead of Starfire before refreshing DoTs if you're at the end of a crit-free cycle
So there's actually 2 cycles: Mf, IS, Sfx3 W (if all spells prior the wrath are non-crits, incl the last spell of the previous cycle) and Mf, IS, Sfx4 for the more-frequent times when you see at least one crit

Tier 5 level (or non-tier equivalents)

Shouldn't be using non-tier equiv at this level, but if you are see T4 recommendations
Mf, Sfx2, IS, Sfx3 or similar should be ideal for maintaining debuff for 4-pc.
Anyone with first-hand experience at this gear level is welcome to dispute this

Tier 6 level (with and without Sunwell Plateau gear)

Pre-Sunwell: Mf, SfxN
Incl-Sunwell: Sf,Sf,Sf,Sf,Sf,Sf,Sf,why didn't i just roll an elemental shaman, Sf,Sf,Sf,Sf, etc.
With enough spell-haste Starfire spam should become our best DPS & most mana intensive cycle. Someone who avoids spell-haste entirely could try a Wrath-spam rotation instead, but will likely either end up frustrated by their self-limited selection of gear or by bumping up against the GCD all the damn time if they do acquire any haste.

bodvarbjarki · 03/07/08, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by Efejel

T5

Shouldn't be using non-tier equiv at this level, but if you are see T4 recommendations
Mf, Sfx2, IS, Sfx3 or similar should be ideal for maintaining debuff for 4-pc.
Anyone with first-hand experience at this gear level is welcome to dispute this

I support this rotation for 4-pc T5, and add that it's an excellent rotation for keeping IFF up. IFF, that rotation x 2, rinse and repeat.

If you get a NG proc you can always do MF/SFx3 instead.

Astrylian · 03/07/08, 9:12 PM

Rawr Beta 12.1 posted!

DOWNLOAD: https://www.codeplex.com/Release/Pro...eleaseId=11483

Beta 12.1:
- Fixed a bug that would cause "Input string not in correct format" errors when Rawr was run on copies of Windows for a region where a period is not the decimal separator (ie european countries where it would be "1,23" instead of "1.23").
- For proxies that filter by user-agent, the user-agent used by Rawr is now customizable in the proxy options.
- Config settings (like recent files) are now user specific.
- Fix for occasionally not loading icons immediately even though a network connection is available. Also fixed an error when there was no network connection.
- Rawr.Mage: Added new AB-AM cycle and new AB cycles with Frostbolt/Scorch filler, added a fix for the item budget comparison, added scrolling on the options screen, added Drums of Battle stacking,
- Rawr.Warlock: Fixed issue when altering spell cycle

Kor, D'Har Master · 03/08/08, 7:39 PM

Can anyone give a rough approximation of a %-wise breakdown of dps to each spell (by rotation, I suppose, but at least for an MF/IS/3xSF rotation?) Something like 15% MF, 10% IS, 75% SF, or w/e it might work out to be? Thanks.

Moginheden · 03/10/08, 2:26 AM

Originally Posted by Efejel

Incl-Sunwell: Sf,Sf,Sf,Sf,Sf,Sf,Sf,why didn't i just roll an elemental shaman, Sf,Sf,Sf,Sf, etc.
With enough spell-haste Starfire spam should become our best DPS & most mana intensive cycle. Someone who avoids spell-haste entirely could try a Wrath-spam rotation instead, but will likely either end up frustrated by their self-limited selection of gear or by bumping up against the GCD all the damn time if they do acquire any haste.

When sunwell comes out haste will reduce the GCD too. Why would you drop MF if it's faster casting too? Wrath still won't get full benefit from Nature's Grace so it's out. On the other hand Moonfire doesn't use up NG charges so your next starfire still gets it, (although a double crit would still be wasted.)

ljmadness · 03/10/08, 2:40 AM

ok have been reading this board for a while and one thing that i have been looking for but was never really brought up in a detailed discussion is how does haste compare with spell damage and crit. By detail i mean the full mathematic formulation behind your proof and not an intuitive answer that someone came up with...while experience still takes into consideration, but i would still like to have an objective answer.

I am not going to go into detail what my gear choice will be but the following should answer all those questions.

Armory - The World of Warcraft Armory (i do have cowl of illidari high lord just using 4 pcs for the set bonus atm the rest are my raiding gear)

Ideal gear before 2.4- chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta (i am basically shooting for 202+hit to drop 2 points in balance power and another 2 into intensity)

Ideal gear after 2.4 - chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta (never mind the +hit for this gear set since i can always change my gems around for that)

There are several things i would like to find out.

1st Is there really a spell damage threshold for moonkin? Meaning is there a diminishing return for getting more spell damage after a certain point. ( I have heard from someone in my guild who trolls the ej board mention that he had seen a post possibly on the warlock forum that the spell damage diminishing return point is around high 1300-1400 spell damage unbuffed. )

2nd This is similar to the first question but is there a number for spell crit.

3rd. If you know the answer to the first two question i believe you should know the convertion between 1 sp = crit = haste. My biggest problem is the conversion between crit and haste, if anyone has a math model on excel or mathlab pretty much any mathematically tool and want to show me i would be glad to look at those.

I did however figure out the spell haste limitation or rather the diminishing point by myself which I believe to be something unrealistic for any moonkin to achieve with the current gear.

formula from wowwiki. Casting speed - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
New Casting Time = Base Casting Time / (1 + (Spell Haste Rating/1570))

basically to get your starfire to break the one second gcd, by break i mean to have more haste to be able to cast your starfire under 1s gcd rule. You would need 1375 spell haste + bloodlust + 80 haste from drum. (1.3 = bloodlust)

2.5s/((1+(80+1375)/1574)*1.3) = 1s <---cast time. 1374+ spell haste with bloodlust and drum will break the diminishing return point for haste, which obviously is unreachable.

shenando · 03/12/08, 5:27 AM

Sorry for the off topic question. im just wondering if there are any shadow resist gear for moonkins to gear up in preparation for Black Temple and Mount Hyjal? seems like every class has some gear in that direction except for moonkins. already trying to maximise dps is not easy and now we have to gear up in SR...

Great work on the spreadsheet. I love it!

Lambach · 03/12/08, 5:41 AM

We use the same gear as everyone else. None of the gear is made for any class, its all just SR and stam.

Efejel · 03/12/08, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Moginheden

When sunwell comes out haste will reduce the GCD too. Why would you drop MF if it's faster casting too? Wrath still won't get full benefit from Nature's Grace so it's out. On the other hand Moonfire doesn't use up NG charges so your next starfire still gets it, (although a double crit would still be wasted.)

I could be wrong, I haven't done any math on this. But even with the GCD reduction, Moonfire is still mostly a DOT that scales poorly with crit and haste, the two main stats I'm seeing stacked on the Sunwell gear. And while, sure, the +dmg is higher, it's haste where we're seeing HUGE increases.

I'm pretty sure fights will still be mobile & interesting enough that there will be both time & reason for application of Moonfire at least part of the time.

Traek · 03/12/08, 4:28 PM

This topic has got me thinking if I can actually put a haste value on crit, since a crit essentially gives me 295 spell haste for Starfire. I'm only interested in a value in relation to Starfire. I'm basically trying to figure out at what amount of haste I should have when I should swap most of my current gear out for haste pieces. Is there some way to calculate how much haste crit is worth only when casting starfire? What is the point when I'm ONLY casting Starfire that haste value from items will provide a bigger benefit than the crit on those item slots instead? My own calculations say that 1 crit = 2.95 haste rating.