Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet - Page 61

Candela · 05/26/08, 7:58 AM

Originally Posted by Benita

The usual consumable buffs get you 142 spelldamage (Flask+oil+food). Keep in mind that you also might gain improved DS or wrath of air totem which are bringing you to the 1392+haste fairly fast.

80 + 23 + 42 = 145

Melador · 05/27/08, 4:08 PM

Well, 139 if you're using crit oil. Pretty sure 14 crit rating > 6 damage.

• Adoriele · 05/27/08, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by Melador

Well, 139 if you're using crit oil. Pretty sure 14 crit rating > 6 damage.

It's pretty close, but yes.

ifurita · 05/28/08, 4:29 PM

Originally Posted by Lambach

Well, of course mages should be putting out more dps then you....but does he understand how group buffs work? And you cant really call a group with hunters caster, cause they gain benefit from neither you or the shaman. In fact, its better group synergy to have you in the real caster group, and have a mage in the hunter group(assuming they are BM). I don't know what to tell you man, could be that your GM doesnt know what hes doing, or maybe he does, and you arent worth the raid spot. Without some WWS its impossible to know.

This is the WWS from our previous night's Brutallus attempts:
Wow Web Stats

We had put our one elemental shaman with the mages this fight because at 20%, heroismed fire mages with combustion and molten fury do the most single target DPS possible. Our boomkin was in the same group as our warlocks with a shadow priest. We usually try to fit him into one of the two caster groups when possible since we casters like the 5% crit buff - our shamans have sort of sporadic attendance so if only one shammy is available, whichever caster group that doesn't get the shammy will get the boomkin.

Dathis is the only moonkin in our guild, so we don't really know where/how to place him in terms of DPS expectations. I understand if damage is lower when we place him in sub-optimal groups, but when in the same group as other casters what should be be looking for relative to pure damage dealers and other hybrids (e.g. shadow priests and shamans)?

Soultrigger · 05/28/08, 4:55 PM

Hi there ^^

It seems I am doing about 1300-1400 dps as a moonkin with leather badge gear (ilvl 128), so I think he should output more dps there.

Najentus Kill

Akama Kill without BL (damn, resto shammie :/)

I am showing you that as a way to compare.

Bellawynn · 05/28/08, 6:29 PM

Ifurita:

I think I'm in comparable, if not slightly worse gear than your moonkin, and might be able to say a bit to help you judge what's going on. We had our first Brut kill last night, along with two 1% attempts, so there's a bit of data here if you want to pour over specifics: Wow Web Stats

The group I'm in is two Fire Mages, an Ele Shaman, a Destro Lock and myself. The mages usually pop mana potions instead of destro, while the rest of us use destro potions. I find that I'm fine on mana, usually getting low about halfway through, but since we put the SPriest in with the healers (1 Disc/Holy, 1 Holy, 1 Haste Resto Shaman, and a slightly undergeared Pally) I can keep my innervate to myself which puts me back near full again. The only time where mana became tight was in the last 30 seconds because we had had Drums of Battle up 50% of the time and two Bloodlusts.

As far as I can tell from looking at the logs, he or she has a good rotation, which means the difference probably comes down to group composition and other small details. Elemental shamans are easily our best friends at this gear level. We only run one dps caster group (though our tank group could be considered one with most of our spare warlocks ending up in it), so it's natural to stack the two of us together. I would also investigate what your moonkin is doing in terms of Idols. [Idol of the Raven Goddess] will be the best choice for heavy crit groups as it lends almost another 1% crit to the group and doesn't suffer any accidental GCD invocations found with idol swapping, particularly with +haste gear since the weapon GCD doesn't seem to get lowered with haste like spells.

Other differences I found:

The use of 6mp5 on chest vs 15 spirit, probably not an issue since there was a SPriest, but will make a slight difference without one.
The use of Adept+Wisdom instead of a Flask of Blinding Light
There should be 8 Faerie Fires casted during fight, your moonkin only casted 5 times. This won't necessarily be an improvement in their DPS, but if a significant portion are actually using that extra 3% hit then the raid is losing out on physical dps. I only go to 2% and get treants instead.
Treants are nice for this fight because you can effectively pop them 3 times and they should survive the entire fight because there isn't any damage getting thrown about that they're susceptible to.

At the moment I would consider how to bring up your overall raid DPS instead of focusing on just one member, as there were only two people above the ~1850 dps per person that the raid needs to average with 8 healers.

I should also point out that it might be worthwhile to make more use of offspecs. UA locks, Enh shamans, Survival Hunters, Improve Expose Armor Rogues, Ret Paladins, etc. You usually only need one of these, but what you lose an individual's dps is made up by the benefit they give to the party or raid.

Kaug · 05/28/08, 6:35 PM

Originally Posted by Soultrigger

Hi there ^^

It seems I am doing about 1300-1400 dps as a moonkin with leather badge gear (ilvl 128), so I think he should output more dps there.

Najentus Kill

Akama Kill without BL (damn, resto shammie :/)

I am showing you that as a way to compare.

Teron gorefiend is generally accepted to be the best dps test in BT. This is because unless you are ghosted and die early it is the most 'stand and blast away' fight. Other fights have movement required, transitions, decursing\abolishing etc.

I had a SPriest but no Shammy and i'm hitting 1400-1500 dps
Wow Web Stats

PS in general, WWS will show moonkin having relatively low 'dps' but really high 'dps time' because of our DOTs keep us in 'dps time'. What really matters, imo, is total damage, which is what wws sorts on by default. Actually dead bosses matter most, followed by total damage output.

• Adoriele · 05/28/08, 6:47 PM

I'll echo that 1185 is a bit low, given his gear. I can hit just below that in a mix of Kara, badge, and early T5 gear, and going up against 4T6 that's saying something. I ran a little quick math on his casting, and given the amount of haste he has, as the number of NG procs he would have gotten, he was casting for about 4'54" out of the 6'08" that the try lasted. That's abysmal, especially on a fight where every last drop of DPS matters. He did get Burn twice, and I'm not factoring in any latency, but that's still not an awesome amount of casting time.

Second, he only cast IS four times, which leads me to believe you're not asking him to keep it up to help the tank out with avoidance. If that's the case, he needs to just drop it from his rotation completely. It's not worth the GCD with the amount of gear he has.

ifurita · 05/28/08, 7:09 PM

Originally Posted by Bellawynn

There should be 8 Faerie Fires casted during fight, your moonkin only casted 5 times. This won't necessarily be an improvement in their DPS, but if a significant portion are actually using that extra 3% hit then the raid is losing out on physical dps. I only go to 2% and get treants instead.
Treants are nice for this fight because you can effectively pop them 3 times and they should survive the entire fight because there isn't any damage getting thrown about that they're susceptible to.

I believe our melees were asking for Faerie Fire, but it fell off once or twice during the fight.

Originally Posted by Bellawynn

At the moment I would consider how to bring up your overall raid DPS instead of focusing on just one member, as there were only two people above the ~1850 dps per person that the raid needs to average with 8 healers.

I should also point out that it might be worthwhile to make more use of offspecs. UA locks, Enh shamans, Survival Hunters, Improve Expose Armor Rogues, Ret Paladins, etc. You usually only need one of these, but what you lose an individual's dps is made up by the benefit they give to the party or raid.

We have killed Brutallus once already, but on our kill shot we only had 7 healers and much better stacked groups (including an enhancement shaman and ret pally). We do have quite a few hybrids and offspecs, but only one moonkin who usually does less damage than the other hybrids. But we just don't know whether that's simply because of moonkin design or if there are areas for improvement (e.g. rotation, dps time, etc.). Anyways, if you guys have suggestions, I know he's been following this thread and I'm sure he'd appreciate it.

Celdhyrean · 05/28/08, 8:59 PM

There should be 8 Faerie Fires casted during fight, your moonkin only casted 5 times

As far as i know, WWS won't register a new faery fire application if the old one is still up, refreshing a debuff doesn't appear in the combat log.

Scarius · 05/29/08, 4:20 AM

Originally Posted by ifurita

This is the WWS from our previous night's Brutallus attempts:
Wow Web Stats

We had put our one elemental shaman with the mages this fight because at 20%, heroismed fire mages with combustion and molten fury do the most single target DPS possible. Our boomkin was in the same group as our warlocks with a shadow priest. We usually try to fit him into one of the two caster groups when possible since we casters like the 5% crit buff - our shamans have sort of sporadic attendance so if only one shammy is available, whichever caster group that doesn't get the shammy will get the boomkin.

Dathis is the only moonkin in our guild, so we don't really know where/how to place him in terms of DPS expectations. I understand if damage is lower when we place him in sub-optimal groups, but when in the same group as other casters what should be be looking for relative to pure damage dealers and other hybrids (e.g. shadow priests and shamans)?

On Brutallus, with CoS up he should be at 17-1800 dps with a optimal Group. This is where i sit when i get CoS, of course without CoS 1600 is a reasonable number and even lower with a subpar Dps Group.

Treants do a good 10-11k dmg per cast.

Heres a WWS of Brutallus the other Night where I Didn't have CoS. Wow Web Stats

Probably the biggest factor is the fact he had a 27% crit rate with starfire... which is horrendous...

Candela · 05/29/08, 5:11 AM

Originally Posted by Celdhyrean

As far as i know, WWS won't register a new faery fire application if the old one is still up, refreshing a debuff doesn't appear in the combat log.

i wonder if that still is true with 2.4 changes. since the combatlog now also has information about every single spell one casts. but might be the reason.

nakedduck · 05/29/08, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

he was casting for about 4'54" out of the 6'08" that the try lasted. That's abysmal, especially on a fight where every last drop of DPS matters. He did get Burn twice, and I'm not factoring in any latency, but that's still not an awesome amount of casting time.

I think this is where the problem is. He's not casting enough. Looking at the combat log, there's some serious problems with his moonfires. Here's some snips of starfires followed by moonfires:

02:16'45.590 Dathis's Starfire hits Brutallus for 796 Arcane damage (2065 resisted)
02:16'45.961 Dathis's Moonfire hits Brutallus for 818 Arcane damage
02:16'52.045 Dathis's Starfire hits Brutallus for 3242 Arcane damage
02:16'55.203 Dathis's Starfire hits Brutallus for 3459 Arcane damage
02:16'57.208 Dathis's Moonfire crits Brutallus for 1658 Arcane damage

02:13'37.588 Dathis's Starfire hits Brutallus for 3164 Arcane damage
02:13'40.409 Dathis's Moonfire crits Brutallus for 1704 Arcane damage

02:12'55.846 Dathis's Starfire hits Brutallus for 3183 Arcane damage
02:12'56.247 Dathis's Moonfire hits Brutallus for 798 Arcane damage
02:13'02.743 Dathis's Starfire crits Brutallus for 7539 Arcane damage

02:17'26.519 Dathis's Starfire hits Brutallus for 2979 Arcane damage
02:17'28.130 Dathis's Moonfire crits Brutallus for 1742 Arcane damage
02:17'34.153 Dathis's Starfire hits Brutallus for 3589 Arcane damage

02:13'37.588 Dathis's Starfire hits Brutallus for 3164 Arcane damage
02:13'40.409 Dathis's Moonfire crits Brutallus for 1704 Arcane damage
02:13'44.418 Dathis's Starfire hits Brutallus for 3470 Arcane damage

Now, if you look carefully at the timestamps, he's getting some very serious time delays around his moonfires. A moonfire should almost instantly hit the same time as the previous starfire does. The parses above all show 1-3 second delay. Starfire follow-ups after the moonfire should be 4.5 seconds tops (can't really armory him, at work, so i can't see how much haste he has)

I'm wondering if he's using a idol swap macro or add-on that may be screwing him up.

dathis · 05/29/08, 1:37 PM

Thank you all for the input. Especially your last analysis nakkeduck. I believe you hit the nail on the head I am still using idol swap macros and now that I have been more critical of my own DPS in game I can see how they are messing me up.

As an aside have any of you found a good set of timers that includes the 2pT6 bonus or a mod that does something really annoying when you debuffs fall off our target.

Thank you again all.

• Adoriele · 05/29/08, 1:57 PM

Originally Posted by dathis

Thank you all for the input. Especially your last analysis nakkeduck. I believe you hit the nail on the head I am still using idol swap macros and now that I have been more critical of my own DPS in game I can see how they are messing me up.

As an aside have any of you found a good set of timers that includes the 2pT6 bonus or a mod that does something really annoying when you debuffs fall off our target.

Thank you again all.

I use Elkano's Buff Bars. Create a group that filters out everything but your own debuffs (target = target, remove timeless auras, only show debuffs). It's the most central part of my UI, and allows me to see exactly when my debuffs are going to drop off. I don't currently show the time left, as the bars give me a good enough idea, though I may in the future once I get 4T5 as I'll start clipping my DoTs at that point (or not, if it turns out that the 10% on the last SF isn't worth clipping the last tick of MF/IS.

[edit=ninja]

Right in the center, between the target and focus frames. Incredibly useful, and has made my DPS jump immensely ever since I moved my UI around to incorporate it.

Bellawynn · 05/29/08, 2:01 PM

I use a combination of Bongos3 and OmniCC to show what debuffs are on a target and how much time is left on them. In the past I've also used Dotimers.

OmniCC
Bongos 3
DoTimers

nakedduck · 05/29/08, 3:34 PM

Oh one last small thing, not a real big deal, but you're clipping your moonfires. You cast moonfire 22 times, had 102 moonfire dots when ideally you should have had 110. While this isn't a huge deal, it's just another thing you can look at to squeeze in a bit more dps.

Soultrigger · 05/29/08, 3:54 PM

I use powerauras, I configure it to show some image when one of my buffs is on, if it is not, it won´t show. So I know when to renew it. Poweraura let you crate images/animation to any buff/debuff in the game.

Drbass · 05/29/08, 7:24 PM

One more small little nit pick dathus. I went through your armory and right now from what I can tell you have 148 haste rating(man I wish they would update it to show haste). This really isn't enough haste to make the Ashtounge Trinket a good one. I believe the haste required to get one more starfire off in the amount of time the buff is up is somewhere around 190. There is some math on it earlier on in this thread. Untill then you might want to think about maybe a Darkmoon Card:Crusade or Hex of shrunken heads.

handoverfist · 05/29/08, 7:30 PM

Originally Posted by ifurita

This is the WWS from our previous night's Brutallus attempts:
Wow Web Stats

We had put our one elemental shaman with the mages this fight because at 20%, heroismed fire mages with combustion and molten fury do the most single target DPS possible. Our boomkin was in the same group as our warlocks with a shadow priest. We usually try to fit him into one of the two caster groups when possible since we casters like the 5% crit buff - our shamans have sort of sporadic attendance so if only one shammy is available, whichever caster group that doesn't get the shammy will get the boomkin.

Dathis is the only moonkin in our guild, so we don't really know where/how to place him in terms of DPS expectations. I understand if damage is lower when we place him in sub-optimal groups, but when in the same group as other casters what should be be looking for relative to pure damage dealers and other hybrids (e.g. shadow priests and shamans)?

He should defiantly be putting out more damage especially if he has the luxury of having a shadow priest. This is the WWS from our last kill Wow Web Stats ended up getting 2 innervates and still going oom at the end of the fight, but we have pretty similar gear. Also, I would agree with bass in using a darkmoon card over the ashtongue if your haste is low especially cause you have to rely on a proc.

Rillumarei · 05/29/08, 8:06 PM

First of all I just have to say how much I respect you people for being able to calculate these things in order
to maximize pretty much everything. You must understand that I have grown desperate in these past few weeks.
I have tried to comprehend your calculators and spreadsheets and they give me an estimated 1800+ dps raidbuffed with my stats. Every single time. For example Lherin's Moonkin DPS Simulator. Those kind of numbers are quite aspiring, however I find myself dealing less and less dps each day. 1350, 1300, 1250, 1110.. I tell you. With t6-gear that is rather depressing when you think you're doing the best you can. Sometimes I seem to deal more dps unbuffed than raidbuffed and all the reasons I can come up with are partial resists and critless streaks. I've tried to study this thread closely.
I dropped IS and started using MF+SFx5-cycle. It did not really make a difference though. I'm working with 157 haste rating, 1334 Arcane Spelldmg, 23.34% spell critical strike chance and 154 spell hit and with both t6-set bonuses. Unbuffed.
And these 1200-1300 dps numbers raidbuffed are devastating. Not just for my mental health, but for my pride as well.
Please. I am not asking you to teach me, I'm just asking if you could please point out some small but essential thing I have missed. Or is it really so that I am the most misfortunate guy out there and it's all about luck?

Hengeyokai · 05/30/08, 7:18 PM

Originally Posted by dathis

Thank you all for the input. Especially your last analysis nakkeduck. I believe you hit the nail on the head I am still using idol swap macros and now that I have been more critical of my own DPS in game I can see how they are messing me up.

As an aside have any of you found a good set of timers that includes the 2pT6 bonus or a mod that does something really annoying when you debuffs fall off our target.

Thank you again all.

Hello all, new poster here. You make it sound like idol swapping is a bad thing, I thought the whole point of idol swapping was to help our dps not to hurt it. Should I discontinue using the macros? I notice the GCD of the wrath idol adding a little time on my initial cast of my wrath idol macro but with Moonfire and Starfire I'm not seeing any noticeable delays. Any advice on the subject would be greatly appreciated.

• Adoriele · 05/30/08, 7:18 PM

Originally Posted by Rillumarei

First of all I just have to say how much I respect you people for being able to calculate these things in order
to maximize pretty much everything. You must understand that I have grown desperate in these past few weeks.
I have tried to comprehend your calculators and spreadsheets and they give me an estimated 1800+ dps raidbuffed with my stats. Every single time. For example Lherin's Moonkin DPS Simulator. Those kind of numbers are quite aspiring, however I find myself dealing less and less dps each day. 1350, 1300, 1250, 1110.. I tell you. With t6-gear that is rather depressing when you think you're doing the best you can. Sometimes I seem to deal more dps unbuffed than raidbuffed and all the reasons I can come up with are partial resists and critless streaks. I've tried to study this thread closely.
I dropped IS and started using MF+SFx5-cycle. It did not really make a difference though. I'm working with 157 haste rating, 1334 Arcane Spelldmg, 23.34% spell critical strike chance and 154 spell hit and with both t6-set bonuses. Unbuffed.
And these 1200-1300 dps numbers raidbuffed are devastating. Not just for my mental health, but for my pride as well.
Please. I am not asking you to teach me, I'm just asking if you could please point out some small but essential thing I have missed. Or is it really so that I am the most misfortunate guy out there and it's all about luck?

What sort of buffs are you getting?
Do you have a pocket Spriest?
Are you ever running out of mana?
How bad is your latency?

There are a ton of questions you need to ask yourself before we can help you. If you are accurately modeling your gear and buffs in the sheet, then (barring the haste bug), you can trust the sheet to tell you an approximation of your DPS. We're not as streaky as an Enhancement Shaman. Generally, put in double your expected lag, and expect a 3-4% deficit if you're the iFF bitch for the raid.

That said, I'm uploading a new version of my sheet. I would LOVE to have this extensively tested, as it incorporates a bunch of statistical weighting that I'm not sure I got 100% right. Basically, it will try to predict how much DPS you will do given a certain rotation by weighting each combination of NG procs and resulting damage by percent chance to occur. It includes the ability to fit in an extra SF by getting enough procs, and allows you to clip the last ticks of your DoTs if you prefer, for instance when you have 4T5 (there's a quick shortcut here, I may flesh this out with a better model). 4T5 itself is not yet modeled, though.

For example: My usual rotation is IS, MF, SFx3. If I get more than 2 NG procs, though, I can start casting a 4th SF before my DoTs drop off, so I do. The spreadsheet calculates the chance I have of getting X procs in 3 casts (plus the chance that I had a proc up when the rotation started), and weights the amount of damage I do knowing that I got some guaranteed crits in there by that chance. It does the same for total rotation cast time, averages both, and comes out with average DPS. For me, personally, it comes very close to what I see in raids.

Usual caveat applies: This makes no account for mana, and assumes you pay attention to your cast rotation. As such, it is an expected amount of pure DPS. For those who'd like to test it, please keep this in mind when comparing to in-game DPS feedback.

[edit] Henge, Idol swapping is only bad if it hurts your rotation. If you don't notice any problems trying to cast and not being able to when you swap idols, you'll be fine.

ariyana · 06/01/08, 2:04 AM

Originally Posted by Benita

The usual consumable buffs get you 142 spelldamage (Flask+oil+food). Keep in mind that you also might gain improved DS or wrath of air totem which are bringing you to the 1392+haste fairly fast.

Yeah, luckily I always get built into the "peen" group because the others love my crit. We end up being either 3 warlocks/ mage, me and enh shaman or 2 warlocks/mage, me, enh shaman and spriest. I blinding light flask most of the time, spell dmg food, brilliant wiz oil (crit/dmg)...

I have to look into this impact from trinket swapping and lag in my meters though because I seem to be about 200dps off a lot of the WWS logs here, I don't have a T5 or T6 bonus, but I didn't think I was -that- far behind in gear... I know that I get stuck healing myself in najentus to ease up raid heals, that hurts, and I'm on decurse duty in Archimonde, but otherwise I should be up there. I seem to fluctuate between 1000-1200.

~1100 on gorefiend: Wow Web Stats
~950 on najentus: Wow Web Stats
~1150 on rage: Wow Web Stats

vaultene · 06/01/08, 4:30 AM

Can anyone tell me what the hit rating cap is or should be for a balance druid? I'm getting some nice gear with high hit rating and now its up to 17%. I would like to know if I can dump some of it and put in some spell damage gems instead of the hit rating ones i have. Spell damage bonus is almost 2000 . thanks so much. Vaultene