03/12/08, 6:13 PM   #916
apsod
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Kil'Jaeden
 Originally Posted by Traek This topic has got me thinking if I can actually put a haste value on crit, since a crit essentially gives me 295 spell haste for Starfire. I'm only interested in a value in relation to Starfire. I'm basically trying to figure out at what amount of haste I should have when I should swap most of my current gear out for haste pieces. Is there some way to calculate how much haste crit is worth only when casting starfire? What is the point when I'm ONLY casting Starfire that haste value from items will provide a bigger benefit than the crit on those item slots instead? My own calculations say that 1 crit = 2.95 haste rating.
Without doing any actual maths at all, and assuming your 295 haste number is correct (ie, I'm not double checking), the problem with your calculations is that (from your own assumptions):

1% crit = 2.95 haste rating (and not 1crit = 2.95 haste rating).

This means that:
22.066 crit = 2.95 haste
1 crit = 0.134 haste

Which means that 1 crit is roughly equilavent to 0.134 haste rating, on top of the other normal benefits crit has (this of course assumes you have NG, which all moonkins should have ^^).

 03/12/08, 8:29 PM #917 Traek Von Kaiser   Traeklol Orc Death Knight   Mannoroth What I did was 295 * (1 crit percent / 100) = 2.95 rating. I guess if you multiply your non-haste gear crit percent by 2.95 you'd get your pseudo-haste rating. As long as your haste gear has more rating than that, you should wear haste gear instead. I'm not sure if these assumptions are well-founded. The only thing I don't take into account is bonus crit damage.
 03/13/08, 10:47 AM #918 Artemas Glass Joe   Ces Night Elf Druid   Stormrage Greetings. Long time reader, first (or second) time posting. I apologize if this has been covered, but I have a quick question regarding Dreamstate vs. 2.3 Intensity vs. 2.4 Intensity. I'm new at being Moonkin. I was feral before and has been farming Illidan for a while now. Currently my guild wants to try me out as Moonkin since they see the benefit in iFF and want to help out our casters more. I'm currently 47/0/14 spec (1 FoN, 3/3 iFF, 3/3 Intensity, 1/5 Subtlety). For the first two weeks, my DPS was really crappy due to lack of gear so this spec suits me fine. Now, with 4t6, Skull of Gul'dan, Zhar'doom, etc, I'm really pushing the threat cap on many fights. So I figure that I should sacrifice some mana regen talents for Subtlety since I generally do fine on mana. Between Intensity and Dream State, as of 2.3, if I were to drop 3 points completely, which one should a ~t6 Moonkin druid drop? How about 2.4? Or should I sacrifice personal DPS talents instead of mana regen talents? Once again, sorry if this has been answered before.
 03/13/08, 11:31 AM #919 Saraya Piston Honda   Saraya Night Elf Druid   Proudmoore Calculate it yourself: Dreamstate = int/10 mp5 Intensity = spirit/6+11.25 mp5 In general, if you are fully raid buffed, intensity will win out. When 2.4 hits, it won't even be a contest.
03/13/08, 12:23 PM   #920
Zene
Von Kaiser

Whisperwind
Not sure if this has already been mentioned. But I grabbed the (what I think to be) latest version: Moonkin_DPS_-_v0.80b.xls and had a slight problem with DPS calculations in the 'Gear Select' tab. There would be a formula errors in the row beneath the Necklace section the "hit-nat dmg" columns when I chose "Adornment of Stolen Souls".

Changing the formula's in each of these cells from

# [top]IF(P64,VLOOKUP($C63,Neck_Socks_Table,5),0) to IF(P64,VLOOKUP($C63,Neck_Socks_Table,5,FALSE),0)

fixed it up nicely. Hope that helps.

Also, how are those Moonkin guides coming along. I can't wait to check them out. Perhaps someone can also convert the Gear List on the WoW Druid Forums into a better format (colors/loot links/where item drops/mixed leather and cloth gear to compare them better instead of just cloth to cloth/leather to leather) in the Moonkin guide as well. I'm so needy.

Last edited by Zene : 03/13/08 at 1:14 PM.

 03/13/08, 4:19 PM #921 • Adoriele Happy October 19th!     Adoriele Night Elf Druid   Dragonblight Responding to the Crit vs. Haste discussion a couple posts up: First, NG is worth 314 Haste, not 295. NG reduces Starfire's cast time by 20%. 20*15.7 = 314. Luckily, since NG is factored before any haste effects are applied, it can be reduced to simply haste. I.E. No matter how much haste you have, NG is always worth 314 more on the casts it affects. Second, your rough calculations aren't quite accurate. Both Haste and Crit have diminishing returns, I.E. 1% +crit is worth 1% DPS iff you start out with zero crit chance. If you start out with 99% crit, +1% crit is only worth .503% DPS. Similarly with haste. Here's a more accurate way of comparing Haste and Crit: Assume $$$DPS= \frac{E_D}{T}$$$, with $E_D$ being your expected (average) damage, and $T$ being your average cast time. The percentage benefit of 1 Rating on DPS is given by $$$\% Benefit= \frac{DPS(X+1)}{DPS(X)} - 1$$$ where $X$ is your current rating of either Haste or Crit, whichever you're trying to find. The point where they're equal is then when $$$\frac{DPS(C+1)}{DPS(C)}= \frac{DPS(H+1)}{DPS(H)}$$$ We'll find the benefit of Crit first, since it has two parts: Damage and speed. $$$\frac{DPS(C+1)}{DPS(C)}= \frac{\frac{E_D(C+1)}{T(C+1)}}{\frac{E_D(C)}{T(C)}} = \frac{\frac{E_D(C+1)}{E_D(C)}}{\frac{T(C+1)}{T(C)}}$$$ $$$E_D= (B + k_D*D)(1 + k_C*C)$$$ $B$ is the base average damage of the spell, which is 647 for Starfire after adding in Moonfury, $k_D$ is the damage coefficient, 1.2 for Starfire with Wrath of Cenarius, $D$ is your +damage from gear, $k_C$ is the Crit rating coefficient, 1%/22.06 = .0004533, and $C$ is your Crit rating (divide your total Crit% by 22.06 to get your effective Crit rating). The affect of Crit on Expected damage is then $$$\frac{E_D(C+1)}{E_D(C)}= \frac{(B+k_D*D)(1+k_C(C+1))}{(B+k_D*D)(1+k_C*C)} = 1 + \frac{k_C}{1+k_C*C}$$$ which, as expected, depends on your current Crit rating. $$$T= \frac{3(1-k_C*C) + 2.5(k_C*C)}{1+k_H*H} = \frac{3-.5(k_C*C)}{1+k_H*H}$$$ where $k_H$ is the Haste Rating conversion 1%/15.7 = .0006369, and $H$ is your haste. Note that this does not include the 314 effective haste from Nature's Grace, that's taken care of in the top of the fraction. The effect of Crit on average cast time is then $$$\frac{T(C+1)}{T(C)}= \frac{\frac{3-.5(k_C(C+1))}{1+k_H*H}}{\frac{3-.5(k_C*C)}{1+k_H*H}} = \frac{3-.5(k_C(C+1))}{3-.5(k_C*C)} = 1-\frac{.5*k_C}{3-.5(k_C*C)}$$$ which again implies that the more Crit you have, the less percentage benefit you'll get from adding more. Finally, this gives us that $$$\frac{DPS(C+1)}{DPS(C)}= \frac{1+\frac{k_C}{1+k_C*C}}{1-\frac{.5k_C}{3-.5*k_C*C}}$$$ Now for Haste: $$$\frac{DPS(H+1)}{DPS(H)}= \frac{\frac{E_D}{T(H+1)}}{\frac{E_D}{T(H)}} = \frac{1}{\frac{T(H+1)}{T(H)}}$$$ We already have the formula for time in terms of haste, so $$$\frac{T(H+1)}{T(H)}= \frac{\frac{3-.5*k_C*C}{1+k_H(H+1)}}{\frac{3-.5*k_C*C}{1+k_H*H}} = \frac{1+k_H*H}{1+k_H(H+1)}$$$ Since it's more convenient, we'll break this down after reciprocating it, since that's what we're doing for the DPS calculation anyway. $$$\frac{DPS(H+1)}{DPS(H)}= \frac{1}{\frac{1+k_H*H}{1+k_H(H+1)}} = \frac{1+k_H(H+1)}{1+k_H*H} = 1+ \frac{k_H}{1+k_H*H}$$$ which looks strikingly like the affect of Crit on expected damage. Which makes sense because they perform the same function. For simplicity, we'll replace all instances of $k_C*C$ with $C_0$, since you're more likely to know what your overall Crit percentage is than what that equates to in rating. Therefore, the affect of Haste on DPS equals the affect of Crit on DPS when $$$\frac{1+\frac{k_C}{1+C_0}}{1-\frac{.5k_C}{3-.5*C_0}}= 1+\frac{k_H}{1+k_H*H}\Rightarrow H = \frac{1-\frac{.5k_C}{3-.5C_0}}{k_C(\frac{1}{1+C_0}+\frac{.5}{3-.5C_0})}-\frac{1}{k_H}$$$ Since both Haste and Crit have diminishing returns, you get more benefit from haste when your current haste is LESS than the formula. I.E. if you have high crit and low haste, it's better to add haste. For example, say you have 25% crit on your character sheet, +4% for Focused Starlight on Starfire. You would need less than 751 Haste rating for 1 haste to provide more benefit than 1 Crit. If you increase it to 33% character sheet and add 4pcT6, for 42% Crit total on Starfire, you need less than 926 Haste rating.
03/14/08, 1:01 PM   #922
Caanrial
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

Kul Tiras
Mana regen enchant useless?

Originally posted in the "Intellect -> Spirit" thread but after no responses figured it may have been misconstrued as off-topic for some reason, so moving it here. Apologies in advance if this is not cool, I re-read the board rules just in case. :-)

 So I started thinking (my 1st mistake lol) why do I have the 6 mana regen enchant on my chest? That's only 72 mana per MINUTE it gives me; having over 9k mana that is such a tiny amount as to go unnoticed in the big scheme of things. Wouldn't the +6 to all stats be much more useful? This is unmodified mana regen so it doesn't matter if I am running away from Leotheras or standing there and ranged-tanking Kiggler -- I get the same paltry 72 mana every minute. My gut feeling is that having +6 to every stat (I'm thinking int & spi here) would ultimately bring more utility to the raid as well as when I run my dailies.....comments?

 03/14/08, 4:45 PM #923 Soultrigger Von Kaiser   Soultarius Tauren Druid   Warsong Hi there, I read these boards for some months now, but it is my first actual post. I was feral until about 2 weeks ago, now I am balance and I had some issues with threat, whatever you may offer me as guidance, I would truly appreciate. As for gear, I got all the badge set, the timed legs drop, the staff from ZA (I intend to get the dagger and use with the haste off hand from badges), trinkets are icon and eye. Just to give a general idea of gear, I got 1171 Soell Dmg, 22.65% crit (in moonkin), almost the hit cap (I might switch the eye for scryer trinket for bosses, until 2.4 patch where I believe I will be hit capped). I got 2 points in subtlely and the subtlely enchant on the cloak. The fight where I did experience the threat isseus were in SSC, Hydross. A very perfect try I pulled aggro from Hydross, on the wrong side, forcing adds respawn, yeah, noobish, I know. But first time being a ranged dps here. :X So with salvation, and -10% threat reduction (talents + enchant), should I be experiencing threat issues?? I was about third in the dps spot on recap, I have fallen to about 7-9 for hitting less afraid from stealing aggro after I wiped the raid. So, is it a moonkin issue or a tank issue? If any, how can I fix it?? (gettin 22% threat reduction + salvation). Btw, I was using the MF and SFx4-5 for my dps rotation, if I anyone can help me how to fix it, I would highly appreciate.
03/14/08, 5:03 PM   #924
Zene
Von Kaiser

Whisperwind
 Originally Posted by Soultrigger The fight where I did experience the threat isseus were in SSC, Hydross. A very perfect try I pulled aggro from Hydross, on the wrong side, forcing adds respawn, yeah, noobish, I know. But first time being a ranged dps here. :X So with salvation, and -10% threat reduction (talents + enchant), should I be experiencing threat issues?? I was about third in the dps spot on recap, I have fallen to about 7-9 for hitting less afraid from stealing aggro after I wiped the raid. So, is it a moonkin issue or a tank issue? If any, how can I fix it?? (gettin 22% threat reduction + salvation). Btw, I was using the MF and SFx4-5 for my dps rotation, if I anyone can help me how to fix it, I would highly appreciate.
In the end, the less threat you produce means the more damage you can do. Hydross is a bad fight for tank threat since they are mostly wearing resist gear which do not provide very good threat generating stats. Clearly, you should watch your aggro on this fight especially. Are you finding threat issues with other fights?

In any case, what I've seen boomkins do is take points out of Celestial Focus (hurts soloing a tiny bit but not that useful for raid bosses) and in your case put the rest into Sublety. It's worth it. Thats really all you can do as far as threat. The rest is up to the tank or one common thing my guild has started doing is dropping tranquil air totem in the heavy caster group for the first portion of the fight (or all of it depending), before switching over to wrath of air. This may help you and other dps do more damage if they are also threat capped.

03/15/08, 2:46 AM   #925
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Zul'Jin
 $$$T= \frac{3(1-k_C*C) + 2.5(k_C*C)}{1+k_H*H} = \frac{3-.5(k_C*C)}{1+k_H*H}$$$ where $k_H$ is the Haste Rating conversion 1%/15.7 = .0006369, and $H$ is your haste. Note that this does not include the 314 effective haste from Nature's Grace, that's taken care of in the top of the fraction.
i am not sure if i follow what you did here, the top of the fraction calculate the average cast time of starfire base on your crit. Why would you need to divide that by the 1+Kh*H

03/15/08, 4:35 AM   #926
Goedel
Von Kaiser

Night Elf Druid

Nathrezim
 Originally Posted by Adoriele $$$E_D= (B + k_D*D)(1 + k_C*C)$$$ $B$ is the base average damage of the spell, which is 647 for Starfire after adding in Moonfury, $k_D$ is the damage coefficient, 1.2 for Starfire with Wrath of Cenarius, $D$ is your +damage from gear, $k_C$ is the Crit rating coefficient, 1%/22.06 = .0004533, and $C$ is your Crit rating (divide your total Crit% by 22.06 to get your effective Crit rating).
I thought Moonfury applied only to base spell damage some time ago but had been changed to affect total damage, which would make it
$$$E_D= (B + k_D*D)(1 + k_C*C)(1 + 0.02*M)$$$

where $B$ is the base damage, 588, $M$ is the Moonfury talent value (0 - 5), and the other variables are as you listed.

(This can also be rewritten in the form you gave, as
$$$E_D= (B + k_D*D)(1 + k_C*C)$$$
with $B= 647$, as you had it, but $k_D= 1.32$, not 1.2.)

03/15/08, 12:37 PM   #927
Benita
Don Flamenco

Tauren Druid

Dentarg (EU)
 Originally Posted by ljmadness i am not sure if i follow what you did here, the top of the fraction calculate the average cast time of starfire base on your crit. Why would you need to divide that by the 1+Kh*H
It is the formula for average starfire cast time based on your crit AND haste. Haste lowers the cast time by a % after NG is taken into effect. 10% on a Starfire without NG means you have a 2.73s cast. With NG it is not 2.23s but 2.27s ((3-0.5)/1.1)

03/15/08, 1:10 PM   #928
Happy October 19th!

Night Elf Druid

Dragonblight
 Originally Posted by Goedel I thought Moonfury applied only to base spell damage some time ago but had been changed to affect total damage, which would make it $$$E_D= (B + k_D*D)(1 + k_C*C)(1 + 0.02*M)$$$ where $B$ is the base damage, 588, $M$ is the Moonfury talent value (0 - 5), and the other variables are as you listed. (This can also be rewritten in the form you gave, as $$$E_D= (B + k_D*D)(1 + k_C*C)$$$ with $B= 647$, as you had it, but $k_D= 1.32$, not 1.2.)
Good catch. For this calculation it doesn't end up mattering, since the relationship between Haste and Crit doesn't change based on your damage, but it'd be necessary for any equivalence of Haste/Crit to Damage. Similarly, this doesn't take into account hit percentage, although it could.

 03/15/08, 4:01 PM #929 Efejel Piston Honda   Efejel Tauren Druid   Dragonblight So, wait: Is there any chance we're close to having a closed-form equation for determining the relative values of the major stats (dmg, crit, haste, and hit)? Or are these just sort of over/under "haste is better until you reach XXX rating at Y.YY% crit"? Sorry, but (ironically enough) equations make my brain hurt. Doubly so when they're in math/physics terminology & fonts vs. programming/spreadsheet speak. I mean the macro on the spreadsheet is certainly one way of approximating (and seems to be about the best way short of a simulation for determining regen effects) the relative values, but closed form equations would be quicker and easier to update, and would come in handy for a sort of gear-suggestion function I've been considering adding. Also, the best way to use Moonfury is to apply it only to the spell damage as a coefficient--base damage should come from a look-up table based on the number of talent points spent in Moonfury, as using the talents as a multiplier doesn't accurately predict the in-game base talented damage. "Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
03/15/08, 6:34 PM   #930
Happy October 19th!

Night Elf Druid

Dragonblight
 Originally Posted by Efejel So, wait: Is there any chance we're close to having a closed-form equation for determining the relative values of the major stats (dmg, crit, haste, and hit)? Or are these just sort of over/under "haste is better until you reach XXX rating at Y.YY% crit"? Sorry, but (ironically enough) equations make my brain hurt. Doubly so when they're in math/physics terminology & fonts vs. programming/spreadsheet speak.
Same thing, really. This formula tells you the point at which haste is no longer better than Crit in terms of your current crit percentage. If you were to solve the equation for $C_0$ instead, it would tell you the percent crit at which 1 crit rating is no longer better than 1 haste rating in terms of your current haste. Solve for one of the k coefficients, and it will tell you the value of it in terms of your current crit percentage and haste. I could probably post those equations given a bit of time to work them out, but it's really just algebra.