03/27/08, 1:37 PM   #976
Happy October 19th!

Night Elf Druid

Dragonblight
 Originally Posted by xtyrulx Currently, Im running MF, SFx4 and occasionally dropping the treants. My average lat is 200ms (I even left the 400ms calculation on the spreadsheet, just in case). I've never have to hold back, thankfully. I rarely have to pot during a fight either, and aside from the occasional brez Im generally casting non stop.I can understand not pushing a lot of dps on some fights that require a lot of movement, like supremus for example. However, fights that dont require me to run around (gorefiend, ros, etc) I just cant push the numbers and its becoming really frustrating for me.
Do you run with a Spriest? Trying to figure out why you're not lacking for mana. In any case, add IS into the mix if you have the mana for it. Your rotation should be one of two, depending on if you get any NG procs. IS, MF, SFx3, W for no procs; IS, MF, SFx4 otherwise. Having too much mana, you're going to be capped by the number of spells you can push out in a given period of time, so your best increase in DPS is either going to be a set bonus (4T5, 2/4T6), adding a crap ton of spell damage on your gear, or swapping for haste until you can drop DoTs from your rotation. You're in the peculiar spot of being in T6 content without 4T5, which is a tremendous set bonus for us.

03/27/08, 2:12 PM   #977
xtyrulx
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

Nathrezim
 Originally Posted by Adoriele Do you run with a Spriest? Trying to figure out why you're not lacking for mana. In any case, add IS into the mix if you have the mana for it. Your rotation should be one of two, depending on if you get any NG procs. IS, MF, SFx3, W for no procs; IS, MF, SFx4 otherwise. Having too much mana, you're going to be capped by the number of spells you can push out in a given period of time, so your best increase in DPS is either going to be a set bonus (4T5, 2/4T6), adding a crap ton of spell damage on your gear, or swapping for haste until you can drop DoTs from your rotation. You're in the peculiar spot of being in T6 content without 4T5, which is a tremendous set bonus for us.
Agreed, to clairify... Im coming off a recent respec, as we have an abundance of tanks and healers. My guild made the decision to stop running all t5 content in order to make the most of our 3 raid/week schedule. The lack of set bonuses (particularly the t5/4piece) is definatly a bother.

Yes, 99% of the time I do have a spriest in the group. The normal group comp is myself, 3 mages and a spriest.
I have considdered trying to adjust my gems to maximize spell damage, (and possibly haste) but I am somewhat concerned with the effects of dropping the spell hit. NG does seem to proc fairly regularly for me though. I also use my Icon of the Silver Crescent trinket whenever the cooldown is available.

03/27/08, 2:24 PM   #978
Happy October 19th!

Night Elf Druid

Dragonblight
 Originally Posted by xtyrulx Agreed, to clairify... Im coming off a recent respec, as we have an abundance of tanks and healers. My guild made the decision to stop running all t5 content in order to make the most of our 3 raid/week schedule. The lack of set bonuses (particularly the t5/4piece) is definatly a bother. Yes, 99% of the time I do have a spriest in the group. The normal group comp is myself, 3 mages and a spriest. I have considdered trying to adjust my gems to maximize spell damage, (and possibly haste) but I am somewhat concerned with the effects of dropping the spell hit. NG does seem to proc fairly regularly for me though. I also use my Icon of the Silver Crescent trinket whenever the cooldown is available.
*nods* I guessed as much about the respec and drop of T5 content. Good thing is that if you're hitting Sunwell any time soon, you'll have haste gear coming quick. ZA, too. Also, hit is, point for point, better than anything else DPS-wise, but that's still point-for-point. Pre-T5, 9 damage is often worth more than 8 Hit, which is how gems tend to break down (sometimes 10 damage if you're splitting it. I.E. it's better to use two [Veiled Noble Topaz] than one [Runed Living Ruby] and one [Great Dawnstone]). Until I get some time to work through the equations more rigorously (look earlier in the thread for an idea of how Haste compares to Crit for DPS), use the Spreadsheet to determine how each gem will work for you. If it says Damage is better than Hit, it's probably not lying.

Also, as to mana issues. You get a lot of mana back when you chug a pot with the Alch stone, but you've mentioned not needing it. You may consider dropping the stone for a damage-oriented trinket on bosses where mana isn't an issue. Even the PvP Last-Stand trinket would be better if you get zero use from the mana return.

03/27/08, 2:35 PM   #979
xtyrulx
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

Nathrezim
 Originally Posted by Adoriele *nods* I guessed as much about the respec and drop of T5 content. Good thing is that if you're hitting Sunwell any time soon, you'll have haste gear coming quick. ZA, too. Also, hit is, point for point, better than anything else DPS-wise, but that's still point-for-point. Pre-T5, 9 damage is often worth more than 8 Hit, which is how gems tend to break down (sometimes 10 damage if you're splitting it. I.E. it's better to use two [Veiled Noble Topaz] than one [Runed Living Ruby] and one [Great Dawnstone]). Until I get some time to work through the equations more rigorously (look earlier in the thread for an idea of how Haste compares to Crit for DPS), use the Spreadsheet to determine how each gem will work for you. If it says Damage is better than Hit, it's probably not lying. Also, as to mana issues. You get a lot of mana back when you chug a pot with the Alch stone, but you've mentioned not needing it. You may consider dropping the stone for a damage-oriented trinket on bosses where mana isn't an issue. Even the PvP Last-Stand trinket would be better if you get zero use from the mana return.

Yeah, I definatlely want to replace the alch stone. (lol, well... really there's a LOT Id like to replace) Ive kept it mainly as a bonus to health pots should the need arise. (In conjunction with not seeing a better drop, and my general distaste for pvp) I could replace it with [Item not found!] off Illhoof, as I have one of those sitting in the bank. Im also thinking of grinding rep with the new faction to craft the +spelll dmg variation of the alch stone.

I truly appreciate this feedback btw!

 03/27/08, 2:43 PM #980 wokuku Glass Joe   wokuku Tauren Druid   Azgalor Feedback Hi, I posted this on wow forums but perhaps I will get more feedback here. Any feedback will be helpful hey guys, I want to know how I stand against other druid with similiar gear in black temple. I am very disappointed that I am almost dead last in the DPS meter so I am not sure if I am at the level where I should be. Here is my guild's wws report on gorefiend last night Wow Web Stats and here is my armony The World of Warcraft Armory I got stacked into a group with an elemetal shaman so I was hit capped and we used drum rotation. I think my spell damage raid buffed was around 14XX. I also was no nowhere near my tank's thread so thread wasn't an issue. Mana wasn't an issue either thanks to the new spirit change. My casting rotation is MF (MF Idol) + 4 * Starfire (starfire idol) and apply iFF every 40 seconds. So am i doing anything wrong?? What can I do to improve my current DPS? I also have 2 piece T6 in the bank waiting for the other pieces.... Yes I know my chest is crappy I am waiting for T6 chest or enough badges to get the badge cast. Also how should I gear myself moving forward? Is the Bracers of Nimble Thought a good upgrade from what i have?
 03/27/08, 3:57 PM #981 borgriot Glass Joe   Borgriot Night Elf Druid   Eitrigg I am in the same boat as the previous poster. I would also like some feedback regarding my Boomkin. Armory:The World of Warcraft Armory WWS from Teron last night:Wow Web Stats I am currently wrestling with a few things. 1. I just recieved [Belt of the Crescent Moon] and I currently have the badge reward [Starfire Waistband]. Replacing this belt will require me to regem some of my equipment to get my hit rating back up to 152/153. Is this worth it? 2. My 2 Rotations that I use are IS/MF/Wx6 for Trash IS/MF/SFx3 Bosses but depending on how my mana is doing which is normally great with the S Priest I will also use the Trash roation on bosses. 3. I am generally always paired with a Shammy and S Priest so I get both buffs. 4. Wokuku and other druids that i have seen that are doing more DPS than I am appear to have saccrificed some +HIT rating and went elsewhere with it. Is that somehting that I might want to look into doing? Perhaps replacing my +8 hit gems with the HIT/DMG version? Is there any point at all that I would want to go below 152/153 hit rating? 5. Idols. I am aware of the Buff and Denerf of the [Idol of the Unseen Moon] and [Idol of the Raven Goddess]. Is the Unseen Moon "The Idol" to use? Or is the Raven Goddess somehting that should now be looked at? 6. Enchants. I am starting to see people talk about [Enchant Chest - Major Spirit]. Is this also the way to go now? Also is there ever a point where I would want to go [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Sunfire] instead of [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Major Spellpower] to the weapon? Being that SF is my Boss Rotation? I could use and appreciate all the help I can get. Please look at my Armory/Enchants/Gear/Gems/Talents/Rotation and let me know what yall think. Thank you. Last edited by borgriot : 03/27/08 at 4:06 PM.
 03/27/08, 4:27 PM #982 • Adoriele Happy October 19th!     Adoriele Night Elf Druid   Dragonblight Wokuku, Borg, the spreadsheet is there for a reason. Try things out in the sheet, it's generally spot-on about what cycles, etc. are going to be the best for you. Yes, it's theoretical, yes it will be off compared to the real world, but compared to itself between iterations of gear, enchants, etc. it's pretty accurate. As to the pertinent question in both of your posts: Gorefiend. Wokoku, the fight lasted 2 and a half minutes or so for you, which makes cooldowns incredibly important. Short answer, you have none. No trees, no use for Innervate, and you didn't get PI. Everything else was shared, and your competition has more class cooldowns than you do. Don't expect to kill people on a short fight, you don't have as many tricks as they do. Borg, your fight lasted just over 5 minutes, which makes this less of an issue for you, though you still have no trees. That said, you're in a T6 fight wearing just-better-than-T4 gear. Dorfle, who placed just above you in the parse, has mostly T5 gear, and I'd be willing to be the same is true of most of your competition, so it may be just a matter of being outgeared. Don't sweat it too much.
03/27/08, 5:02 PM   #983
Lazi
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Area 52
 Originally Posted by Tyjet Always +damage from trinkets, Quagmirran's eye is better than the Karathress trinket. Use hex shrunken head with icon of silver crescent if you can.
I see a lot of post-T6 Moonkin still using Quag's eye but don't really know why. The proc does nothing if it goes off right before you have to move and it's so short that you lose quite a sizable portion of it to a GCD, I've never been too impressed by it and keep it in my bank and use Hex Shrunken Head & Sextant of Unstable Currents. At my current gear level, the +40 Crit rating equates to around +24 Damage and even if the proc only goes off once every 90 seconds, that's a +31 damage equivalence. I'd rather have +55 Damage than +37 and the haste proc. Maybe it would be different if I had 25ms, but since I usually play with around 300, I'll always keep the Sextant over it.

03/27/08, 5:13 PM   #984
wokuku
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Azgalor
 Originally Posted by Adoriele Wokuku, Borg, the spreadsheet is there for a reason. Try things out in the sheet, it's generally spot-on about what cycles, etc. are going to be the best for you. Yes, it's theoretical, yes it will be off compared to the real world, but compared to itself between iterations of gear, enchants, etc. it's pretty accurate. As to the pertinent question in both of your posts: Gorefiend. Wokoku, the fight lasted 2 and a half minutes or so for you, which makes cooldowns incredibly important. Short answer, you have none. No trees, no use for Innervate, and you didn't get PI. Everything else was shared, and your competition has more class cooldowns than you do. Don't expect to kill people on a short fight, you don't have as many tricks as they do.
Adoriele, thanks for the reply. As far as the spreadsheet goes I am surprised the highest DPS rotation my custom rotation which is MF * 1 + SF * 5. Yup SF *5 with my current gearset. I found it strange.

As far as cooldown though, if you look at my spec i don't have tree as I spec for iFF. And there was no need for innervate since my mana didn't even drop below 50% at the end of the fight. The only cooldown that I really used were both my trinkets.

03/27/08, 5:27 PM   #985
borgriot
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

Eitrigg
 Originally Posted by Adoriele Wokuku, Borg, the spreadsheet is there for a reason. Try things out in the sheet, it's generally spot-on about what cycles, etc. are going to be the best for you. Yes, it's theoretical, yes it will be off compared to the real world, but compared to itself between iterations of gear, enchants, etc. it's pretty accurate. As to the pertinent question in both of your posts: Gorefiend. Wokoku, the fight lasted 2 and a half minutes or so for you, which makes cooldowns incredibly important. Short answer, you have none. No trees, no use for Innervate, and you didn't get PI. Everything else was shared, and your competition has more class cooldowns than you do. Don't expect to kill people on a short fight, you don't have as many tricks as they do. Borg, your fight lasted just over 5 minutes, which makes this less of an issue for you, though you still have no trees. That said, you're in a T6 fight wearing just-better-than-T4 gear. Dorfle, who placed just above you in the parse, has mostly T5 gear, and I'd be willing to be the same is true of most of your competition, so it may be just a matter of being outgeared. Don't sweat it too much.
Well my optimal rotation came out to be

MFx2, SFx15.

It also came out to have higher DPS using the Sunfire Enchant.

My hit rating goes all the way down to 110.

It was also higher with Xi'ri's gift over TLC.

I am not sure I understand how you can have higher DPS without being Hit Capped.?

03/27/08, 5:45 PM   #986
Happy October 19th!

Night Elf Druid

Dragonblight
 Originally Posted by wokuku Adoriele, thanks for the reply. As far as the spreadsheet goes I am surprised the highest DPS rotation my custom rotation which is MF * 1 + SF * 5. Yup SF *5 with my current gearset. I found it strange. As far as cooldown though, if you look at my spec i don't have tree as I spec for iFF. And there was no need for innervate since my mana didn't even drop below 50% at the end of the fight. The only cooldown that I really used were both my trinkets.
You may be on the edge of averaging 4 casts of SF per MF, and averaging 5. Lucky strings of crits will give you the ability to have MF up on all of your SF hits, unlucky strings you're better staying with 4 and popping a Wrath in the downtime. Try putting in a rotation of MFx2, SFx9 and see if that gives you better output.

And yeah, I know you don't have any cooldowns, that's why I mentioned it. On short fights, bursty DPS classes are going to kick your ass.

 Sigh, WTB whatever EJ mechanism Lorewanderer is waiting on so he can post his FAQ/Theorycrafting thread. Borg, please read my earlier posts on this page. Hit is better point-for-point than Spell Damage. That said, if you have 50 spell damage, and 1 hit, 1 hit is NOT better. Even with 10 damage and 8 hit, 8 hit is only CONDITIONALLY better. Yes, being hit-capped is nice, but it is not at all necessary.

Last edited by Adoriele : 03/27/08 at 5:52 PM.

03/27/08, 5:47 PM   #987
Drbass
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Cho'gall
 Originally Posted by borgriot I am not sure I understand how you can have higher DPS without being Hit Capped.?
I don't believe hit rating is linear. The last point does not give as much benifit as the first point does. Besides it's all averages, you may hit 1 less time every 100 casts but since your doing slightly more damage it makes up for it.

Well I'm talking out of my ass so I'm probably wrong. I don't have a problem losing a few hit and not being 100% capped when I know I get more damage for it.

Last edited by Drbass : 03/27/08 at 5:53 PM.

03/27/08, 7:41 PM   #988
Happy October 19th!

Night Elf Druid

Dragonblight
 Originally Posted by Drbass I don't believe hit rating is linear. The last point does not give as much benifit as the first point does. Besides it's all averages, you may hit 1 less time every 100 casts but since your doing slightly more damage it makes up for it. Well I'm talking out of my ass so I'm probably wrong. I don't have a problem losing a few hit and not being 100% capped when I know I get more damage for it.
No, you're spot on. Here's an example: 1%hit is 12.6 hit rating. Assuming you have no hit at all, no talents, nothing, you have 83% chance to hit with spells on a boss. 1 hit rating gives you 83.079% chance to hit, for in increase in DPS of .09562%. Assuming you are 1 hit away from the cap of 99% to hit, you have 98.921% chance to hit. That last point of hit is only worth .08023% DPS. The last point of hit affects your DPS only 84% as much as the first point.

Secondly, spell damage is not a percentage-based stat. There is no X spell damage = y% DPS formula. Like Hit rating it, too, has diminishing returns, but it starts out much higher. Assuming no talents again, Starfire hits, on average, for 588 damage. Adding 1 damage increases DPS by .17006%. That's almost twice as much as 1 hit rating.

Let's take a fully-talented Moonkin, though. Balance of Power, Wrath of Cenarius, the works. Further, we'll give him 600 spell damage from gear, including the effects of Lunar Guidance, and 50 hit rating. His guild hasn't recruited an Elemental Shammy, and he's just starting out in Kara. His Starfire hits for 1438.8 on average, and he has 90.968% chance to hit. Adding 1 damage increases his average damage to 1440.12, an increase of .09174% in DPS. Adding 1 hit rating increases his chance to hit to 91.048%, an increase of .08794% in DPS. Even now spell damage is worth more. Let's give him a bit more Kara gear, an extra 200 damage, but only 10 more hit because he's new to this. 1 damage increases his DPS by .07752%, and 1 hit rating increases his DPS by .08653%. Now Hit rating is better.

Stay tuned, because tonight I'll have the two break-even points in spell damage. Before the first, Spell damage will ALWAYS be better than Hit. After the second, Hit will ALWAYS be better than damage, assuming you're not capped. (I'm at work, and I have a raid tonight, otherwise I'd cook them up right now. They do look juicy, though.) Remember, though, that these values are still going to be point-for-point. There is still the fact that you can get 9 spell damage from the same gem type that gives you 8 hit rating, meaning Hit rating has to give you better DPS by a factor of better than 9/8 (1.125) in order for [Great Dawnstone] to be better than [Runed Living Ruby].

 03/28/08, 1:17 AM #990 • Adoriele Happy October 19th!     Adoriele Night Elf Druid   Dragonblight Okay. Caveat first: This is only applicable for Starfire spam. The model only works for one spell at a time, and Starfire is the largest part of our DPS, so I'm modeling it first. I may eventually have time to do a full workup of all of our spells and get some good information from it, but it's gonna be a bit. Anyway, here goes: We know (from my last post) the bounds for the value of Hit rating. It's never worth more than .09562% DPS, never worth less than .08023%. Now, the high end is kind of a misnomer, as no decent raiding Moonkin will forgo Balance of Power. Quick math tells us that the first true point of Hit rating is worth .09122% DPS. Finding the point at which Spell Damage gives an equivalent benefit is a little trickier. We'll go back to the formula I posted a couple weeks ago: $$$\% Benefit= \frac{DPS(X + 1)}{DPS(X)} - 1$$$ Since Spell Damage only affects... Spell Damage, and not cast time, we can replace $DPS(X)$ with $E_D(X)$, the expected average damage formula, which I'll post again as well (revised for better Moonfury modeling, assumption of fully-talented, though for this calculation it ends up not mattering). $$$E_D(D, Ht)= (588 + k_D*D)(1.1)(.87 + k_H_t*Ht)$$$ New variable, $Ht$, is of course your current hit rating, including normalized values for any %-based additions like BoP, ToW, and Inspiring Presence. $k_H_t$ is the Hit rating coefficient, equal to 1/12.6. Now, since the affect of Hit is multiplied through, and thus shows on both the top and bottom of the benefit fraction, we can ignore it. Same with the effect of Moonfury. This gives us $$$\% Benefit= \frac{588 + k_D*(D + 1)}{588 + k_D*D} - 1 = 1 + \frac{k_D}{588 + k_D*D} - 1 = \frac{k_D}{588 + k_D*D}$$$ Solving this for $D$ gives us what we're looking for: $$$D= \frac{1}{\% Benefit} - \frac{588}{k_D}$$$ Plugging in what we know, $k_D$ = 1.2, $\% Benefit$ = .0009122 and .0008023, gives us a lower bound of 606 spell damage, and an upper bound of 756 spell damage. Below 606 damage, a Moonkin with BoP will always gain more out of 1 Damage than out of 1 Hit. Above 756 damage, a Moonkin will always gain more from 1 Hit than from 1 damage, assuming they are not already capped.  Before Ef pokes me about it, yes, this one's pretty easy to get a closed-form solution for the relative value of Hit in terms of damage, given your current values. Expect it fairly shortly, as well as some extrapolation about gems choices (I.E. there are no 1-hit or 1-Damage gems).