I spent a good chunk of time searching through pretty much the majority of balance druid in top end Sunwell guilds. I can't say I have found any that are as geared as I would have expected them to be. I have searched through this thread and I haven't found a lot of information on best in slot pieces of gear nor any information of "perfect" balance druids.
Although it might not be realistic to obtain every single piece of best in slot but I'm sure many druids would also like to know too: What does the perfect gear set look like? This is my take on what I think is the perfect set and playing around, inputting numbers into Melador's DrBoom, please criticize and discuss!
edit// I'm not too sure if this discussion is appropriate seeing as there aren't a lot of balance druids that have the opportunity to be taken seriously in Sunwell. Come WOTLK there will definitely be more balance druids seen in every top end raiding guild, so I feel that as balance is a growing spec, discussions like this will become more common and taken into account because druids will have more access to this type of gear level.
Few guilds have yet killed KJ and no one has been farming the encounters for many months, so it's unlikely that there many players of any class that have the "perfect" gear.
I *am* curious about whether any moonkins are running 4pT5/4pT6 and whether they think that the 10% is worth the ilvl loss of not using SWP gear in the T5 slots.
Few guilds have yet killed KJ and no one has been farming the encounters for many months, so it's unlikely that there many players of any class that have the "perfect" gear.
I *am* curious about whether any moonkins are running 4pT5/4pT6 and whether they think that the 10% is worth the ilvl loss of not using SWP gear in the T5 slots.
From the tests I've run using Rawr (take from that what you will), 4T6+4T5 is about 20 DPS better than the best set of gear you can get if you limit yourself to leather. Haven't been able to run the numbers yet on a set that includes cloth, but my assumption is that it will probably beat 4T6+4T5.
I *am* curious about whether any moonkins are running 4pT5/4pT6 and whether they think that the 10% is worth the ilvl loss of not using SWP gear in the T5 slots.
Tested it on a few Brutallus tries, and must say I found it way too clumsy to use.
It's too convenient to not depend on a DOT running when planning your trinkets/drums/heroism etc.
Numbers on single hits didn't seem all that impressive either, the ilevel difference to T6 or even Sunwell pieces is quite big after all.
Few guilds have yet killed KJ and no one has been farming the encounters for many months, so it's unlikely that there many players of any class that have the "perfect" gear.
I completely understand that there aren't many players of any class has the "perfect" set. The purpose was to address and debate on what the perfect set IS. But like I said, it might not be appropriate to discuss because there are only a small handful of druids in Kil'Jaden killing guilds so the majority of the balance community might not even be interested.
There appears to be a slight bug in the buffed mana regen calculation - when the formula subtracts out the stat-based mana regen to get the gear regen, it uses the pre-2.4 formula, but all the other calculations are done with the 2.4 formula. The following formula works correctly for me:
Also, I am seeing 18 points of stats from Improved MotW instead of the spreadsheet's 19, which is consistent with Blizz' rounding down.. I'm guessing Mark should give 14/14/15/16/17/18 stat points.
Thanks for the spreadsheet! I'm definitely hooked
Good catch on the regen calc error.
As for Imp MotW, I'm aware the in-game tooltip announces 18 but I haven't done testing at thresholds with BoK to see if we're talking about a flat 18 stats, or 18.xx stats that sometimes more closely approximates 19 and sometimes doesn't. I guess I should just assume the worst, and acknowledge that the first talent point in ImpMotW is--in fact--useless...
Last edited by Efejel : 07/03/08 at 5:46 PM.
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
I found myself in a dilemma now about haste socketing. I'm sitting at around 1100 spell dmg unbuffed, and i have 65 spell haste so what i'm noticing is that my starfires are reduced to 2.88 seconds and i still have the same is-mf-3x starfire rotation, so in that point i have to wait maybe 0.5seconds due to my haste in order to reapply my dots and haste seems rather useless because i can't squeeze another starfire in this rotation. So is my logic here wrong or should i wait with spell haste socketing until i get a decent amount of passive spell haste from gear?
Any time spent not casting is wasted time, so you have two options. A: Clip your DoTs, or B: Run another SF well past the point where your DoTs fall off. One option will provide higher DPS than the other. Which option that is depends on a lot of factors.
A lot of people seem to be getting bogged down in the idea that a rotation has to always contain the exact same number of spells. While this works up to a point, if you want to push yourself you're going to have to learn to be dynamic in your choices about which spell to cast when. Yeah, it takes thought. Welcome to end-game raiding.
I am new to this forum so please apologise if I missed important posting/rules or something. I tried to follow the discussion here as good as I can and like to thank all peeps and especially Efejel for his important contribution to develop Moonkin equipment strategy into a systematic approach. I use frequently the spreadsheet to prepare equipment decisions.
Now my problem:
Very recently I decided to substitute my T4 [Chestpiece of Malorne]by [Tormented Demonsoul Robes].
With equipped Tormented Demonsoul Robes I should clearly get a higher DPS value calculated by the DPS Moonkin Spreadsheet (0.80c) then with T4 Chestpiece - but it doesn't!
To identify the reason, I checked:
- Am I hit capped - yes, with Totem of Wrath and draenei racial 1%bonus
- Did I compare different spell rotations? - no, I compared the same rotation, but all rotations show the same trend.
- Did I use different variables like buffs, gear, pot usage, trinkets, etc.? - No, I fixed all so that a true comparison is possible
- OOM before end of fight? - No, for better comparison I reduced fight length to 3mins so that every scheme is not Mana limited.
- Did I use same talents? - yes, used default talent scheme
The only difference is:
Case A: Chestpiece of malorne equipped with 2 potent pyrestones, Glowing Nightseye Top DPS Cycle: MF, SFx4, W calculated dps with buffs: 1384.7 Fight Time: 3mins Stats:
Race Night Elf 82 120 133
Sta.. Int. Spi. hit. crit. haste dmg.. heal. mp5
448 429 243 157 20,72% 0 1138 1138 123 Projected Char Sheet Values (Unbuffed)
366 309 110 157 278.000 0 1031 1031 10 TOTALS (From Gear)
with buffs the hit cap is reached
Case B: Tormented Demonsoul Robes equipped with 1 potent pyrestones. Top DPS Cycle: MF, SFx4, W calculated dps with buffs: 1381.0 Fight Time: 3mins Stats:
Race Night Elf 82 120 133
Sta.. Int. Spi. hit. crit. haste dmg.. heal. mp5
453 440 224 134 22,35% 0 1148 1148 119 Projected Char Sheet Values (Unbuffed)
366 309 110 134 311.000 0 1038 1038 10 TOTALS (From Gear)
with the buffs the hit cap is reached
Unfortunately, I was not able to include screenshots of the 2 cases for detailed analysis (if you need these pages pls state what part and I will include it in my next reply...
For easyness only a non-haste equipment was tested but all statements seem to be true also for equipment with reckless pyrestone instead of potent pyrestone.
Btw, the same effect is true for [Robes of Rhonin], it is even more pronounced there.
Can anybody help me and solve the mystery and explain to me if the spreadsheet, my data input or my analysis is wrong or indeed T4 is better in terms of DPS than Tormented Demonsoul Robe? ... and why?
Especially why I get with higher bonus damage and crit lower dps when everything else is kept steady?
Many thanks in advance for your support.
Moonwhisper
Last edited by Moonwhisper : 07/04/08 at 10:59 AM.
Was the Glowing Nightseye in your T4 chest one of two blue gems required for Meta activation? Try plugging 2 in the blue sockets column on the custom stat line, and then comparing the two chests.
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
Was the Glowing Nightseye in your T4 chest one of two blue gems required for Meta activation? Try plugging 2 in the blue sockets column on the custom stat line, and then comparing the two chests.
You are so right.
I missed the fact, that I do not fullfil the 2xBlue gem requirement for the CSD when I switch to Tormented Demonsoul Robes.
Thanks alot for your help, Efejel!
I spent a good chunk of time searching through pretty much the majority of balance druid in top end Sunwell guilds. I can't say I have found any that are as geared as I would have expected them to be. I have searched through this thread and I haven't found a lot of information on best in slot pieces of gear nor any information of "perfect" balance druids.
Although it might not be realistic to obtain every single piece of best in slot but I'm sure many druids would also like to know too: What does the perfect gear set look like? This is my take on what I think is the perfect set and playing around, inputting numbers into Melador's DrBoom, please criticize and discuss!
edit// I'm not too sure if this discussion is appropriate seeing as there aren't a lot of balance druids that have the opportunity to be taken seriously in Sunwell. Come WOTLK there will definitely be more balance druids seen in every top end raiding guild, so I feel that as balance is a growing spec, discussions like this will become more common and taken into account because druids will have more access to this type of gear level.
Surely giving 0.90% crit to your party is nice and all from the idol, but you'll lose LOADS on your own starfire - or do you mean macros are supposed to be used? and crit isn't that much of an effective stat, afterall.
Currently, I stand at 1306 - 1328 +spell damage, 148 - 175 spell haste (9-11%), and ~24.6% (counting Moonkin aura) spell crit. Using the Moonkin DPS spreadsheet, my optimal rotation is MFx2, SFx15.
My question is, what exactly does that mean? I'm under the obvious assume that I should cast two "spell cycles": One consisting of MF, SFx8 and a second consisting of MF, SFx7. Is there any specific order these should be in? Does how I go about determining what spell to cast next depend on the amount of times Nature's Grace procs, or on the duration left on Moonfire? From a mathematical standpoint, such a cycle would entail casting one or two Starfires before refreshing Moonfire after it has expired on the target. Is there a specific, maximum amount of time I should limit myself to not having a Moonfire on the target (because recently I've been refreshing it as soon as possible whenever it has run out -- never clipping it, but merely refreshing it)?
It's my own fault for not explicitly counting out the rotation before (the one I was using was less than optimal, more of a MFx2, SFx12, since I was refreshing MF asap), but I'd appreciate help in figuring exactly what this listed spell rotation entails, and what variables might cause it to deviate from its normal self...if ever.
Surely giving 0.90% crit to your party is nice and all from the idol, but you'll lose LOADS on your own starfire - or do you mean macros are supposed to be used? and crit isn't that much of an effective stat, afterall.
Currently, I stand at 1306 - 1328 +spell damage, 148 - 175 spell haste (9-11%), and ~24.6% (counting Moonkin aura) spell crit. Using the Moonkin DPS spreadsheet, my optimal rotation is MFx2, SFx15.
My question is, what exactly does that mean? I'm under the obvious assume that I should cast two "spell cycles": One consisting of MF, SFx8 and a second consisting of MF, SFx7. Is there any specific order these should be in? Does how I go about determining what spell to cast next depend on the amount of times Nature's Grace procs, or on the duration left on Moonfire? From a mathematical standpoint, such a cycle would entail casting one or two Starfires before refreshing Moonfire after it has expired on the target. Is there a specific, maximum amount of time I should limit myself to not having a Moonfire on the target (because recently I've been refreshing it as soon as possible whenever it has run out -- never clipping it, but merely refreshing it)?
It's my own fault for not explicitly counting out the rotation before (the one I was using was less than optimal, more of a MFx2, SFx12, since I was refreshing MF asap), but I'd appreciate help in figuring exactly what this listed spell rotation entails, and what variables might cause it to deviate from its normal self...if ever.
I've read the FAQ, and I understand that the rotation listed: MFx2, SFx15, is based on averages.
My question is a bit more complicated than that: Let's say, for instance, I don't get any crits in the first 6 Starfires after a Moonfire cast. Would it be better at that point to refresh Moonfire, since after 6 Starfires, it has expired (and thus not have a MFx2, SFx15 cycle), or cast another Starfire and then cast another Moonfire, followed by 8 Starfires (in order to keep the total Starfires cast per 2 Moonfires equal to 15)?
Perhaps I should phrase it a bit differently. I've noticed that the general consensus is that, unless you have a ridiculous amount of +Spell Damage, Starfire spam will not out-DPS a MF, SF rotation. But as you increase in haste, spell damage and the like, is there a point where Moonfire is simply needed to be cast less, a point at which refreshing Moonfire as soon as possible after it has expired on the target would actually be a loss in DPS rather than a gain or sustainment?
If that IS the case, that refreshing Moonfire immediately would actually be a slight DPS cut, then a MFx2, SFx15 rotation would make sense: I could easily just ensure that I cast the number of Starfires per Moonfire rather than making my focus renewing Moonfire immediately as it leaves the target (never interrupting a Starfire to do so, of course, but simply making it top priority after my current spell finishes casting).
Either the 1.x seconds spent on casting the MF is higher dps than the 2.x seconds on SF (depending on haste) or its not. If its not, you would never cast SF. How long you can delay your SF to either refresh right after the last MF tic or even cut the last dot tic, depends how much higher your MF dps is than the SF and largely is based on gear.
2T6 favours MF, with 4t5 it might be better to clip a last dot tic or cast IS instead, 4t6 favours the SF spam and i got no clue where 4t5+2t6 or 4t5+4t6 ends up.
One more thing to keep in mind is your crit rate and the likeliness of wasting a NG proc, meaning the last SF you cast is a crit and the MF crits aswell, just overwriting the proc without using it.
It is all theorycraftable but depends on you gearlevel.
I had 4t6 very early on and never got full t5, so i tried it out for that specific case and my experience was that its better to not clip your MF and also not delay your SF (which conveniently was also the least "involved" rotation).
If you're not using 4pc T5, you're not trying to keep IS up for the tank, and Moonfire is on the mob already, you have 2 options: 1) refresh FF, 2) start another Starfire.
If there's under 1.x sec left on the MF and under 5 sec left on FF, refresh the FF first, then MF, then SF away. Otherwise, SF and refresh MF after the next SF.
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
I've been experimenting and I'm not sure if I'm sold on the whole 4t5 + 4t6 bonus. I was really excited to try it out, and granted I've only had both set bonuses for about 30 minutes now, but the damage is extremely spikey.
Crits range from 6k (if moonfire falls off) to 7.5k (with moonfire on the mob) to 8K+ (with hex shrunken head popped).
I definitely need some testing on a sit and nuke type of fight, like brutallus, or teron, but for the time being... I don't see how it's possible for 4T5 + 4T6 to be better than T6 + haste.
Can anyone direct me to the 'new gospel' of the supremacy of Sunwell 4pc + T6? I have searched and perhaps I have become blinded by the mass of posts in this thread but I cannot find it.
For my part I have been trying to put together my end-set for the continuation of my raiding. I have access to all loot up to Twins (and M'uru soon), but try as I might, running numbers between Efejel's spreadsheet and Dr.Boom between T5/T6 and T6/Sunwell have all yielded (for me), completely equivalent numbers (dps outputs within 30dps, which given my performance vs calced performance is a statistically deadheat to me.
For reference, the sets I've been running have been:
Set 1 T5/T6 option 1
Nordrassil Headpiece (Chaotic SD, Reckless Pyrestone, Glyph of Power)
Nordrassil Wrath-Mantle (Reckless Pyrestone, Glowing Shadowsong, Greater Inscription of the Orb)
Nordrassil Chestpiece (Runed Spinel x3, +6 Stats)
Thunderheart Bands (Reckless Pyrestone, Spellpower)
Thunderheart Handguards (Reckless Pyrestone, Spellpower)
Thunderheart Cord (Reckless Pyrestone)
Nordrassil Wrath-kilt (Glowing Shadowsong, Runic Spellthread)
Thunderheart Footwraps (Reckless Pyrestone, Boar's Speed)
Brute Cloak of the Ogre-magi (Subtlety)
Pendant of Sunfire (Reckless Pyrestone)
Loop of Forged Power (Spellpower)
Ring of Ancient Knowledge (Spellpower)
Hex Shrunken Head
Skull of Gul'dan
Reign of Misery (Sunfire)
Heart of the Pit
Set 2 T6/Sunwell Option2
Cover of Ursoc the Mighty (Chaotic SD, Reckless Pyrestone, Glyph of Power)
Spaulders of Devastation (Reckless Pyrestone, Glowing Shadowsong, Greater Inscription of the Orb)
Utopian Tunic of Elune (Reckless Pyrestone x3, +6 Stats)
Thunderheart Bands (Reckless Pyrestone, Spellpower)
Thunderheart Handguards (Reckless Pyrestone, Spellpower)
Thunderheart Cord (Reckless Pyrestone)
Breeches of Natural Aggression (Glowing Shadowsong, Reckless Pyrestone x2, Runic Spellthread)
Thunderheart Footwraps (Reckless Pyrestone, Boar's Speed)
Brute Cloak of the Ogre-magi (Subtlety)
Pendant of Sunfire (Reckless Pyrestone)
Loop of Forged Power (Spellpower)
Ring of Ancient Knowledge (Spellpower)
Hex Shrunken Head
Skull of Gul'dan
Reign of Misery (Sunfire)
Chronicle of Dark Secrets
These items sets in Efejels' spreadsheets yield buffed stats of:*
*assumed raid buffs of 2/2 Fort, AB, 2/2 DS, 5/5 MotW, 2/2 Wis, Kings, Wrath, 101 WoA, 0/5 Mana Spring, 1% draenei hit, CoS13, Misery 5, Blinding Light Flask, Basilisk Food, Superior Wizard Oil, Starfire Idol, 0.2 latency.
I ran the numbers with Dr. Boom and got roughly the same dmg difference ~roughly 25 dps difference between, sometimes T5/6 > Sunwell and sometimes the other way around, and with different weapon setups, which under IRL situations is basically statistically null as far as I'm concerned because I'm not a machine and generally get lower output than the calc predicts anyways. Now, maybe I'm just blind or input it in wrong, but I just don't see the gospel as truth yet. And I'm also posed with the dilemma of gear, since the way the sheets have been coming out is basically nudging me towards just keeping T5/6 and just get a weapon upgrade and collect the sunwell offset for resto, instead of wasting a considerable amount of guild sunmotes towards a nominally insignificant gain in dps.
Was there a specific gearset people are using to demonstrate T6/Sunwell's superiority?
I don't think the spreadsheet is the best place to see the disparity, as the calculations assume you're always keeping one DOT on the boss for T5 benefit. In reality, 1/6 Starfires will likely miss the 10% buff, lowering your over all DPS by ~1.5% (or ~29 DPS).
I dunno how the Dr. Boom simulator handles T5 4-pc (or if it does), but it might be a better place to test--plug in the raw stats you get from the spreadhsheet to the sim & see what pops out.
In the end, if you have access to all the gear options you're better off just relying on what you see in game. If the practical tests don't always favor one option, take the option with more stam.
PS: Brute Cloak of the Ogre-magi!?!?
Also, have you tried the Ashtongue Talisman in place of the Hex-shrunken? With 300 haste (in the T6+sunwell set) and high starfire crit rate, I could see it playing nicely.
Last edited by Efejel : 07/11/08 at 2:51 AM.
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
Yea, in truth the cloak should be a Tattered Cape of Antonidas or a Illidari Council cloak, but forgot to replace in the sheets cuz haven't gotten an illidari council cloak yet and felt for comparison purposes the difference was relatively insignificant as long as I kept the slot gear constant for comparing T5/6 or T6/sunwell. Collecting Sunwell offset will still happen, but the 'rush' to do it won't be quite as big, if the difference in performance isn't very large at all, in addition to requiring a few KJ kills first.
Hadn't thought about the Ashtongue trinket though, good point, it may be worth equipping that.
Basically what the sheet calcs and Dr.Boom tests are making me think are that T5/T6 are viable and competitive all the way up to when you collect 4 pieces of sunwell gear, which requires a muru kill at the earliest and a KJ kill at the most picky stage, to instantly change out all the slots but that its not worth it to break the bonus early and replace gear piecemeal.
07/02/08, 6:29 PM
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