Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet - Page 69

• Adoriele · 03/31/08, 4:55 PM

Originally Posted by nakedduck

Honestly, not trying to call you out, just trying to find exact numbers so we can gear properly. I would say 188 and 345 haste isn't something we should ignore.

If I do make a mistake, I would hope that someone would point it out so I dont screw up my rotations/gearing on a false belief.

As far as my dps calculations, I don't know, am I figuring it out wrong? I'm just "weighing" the values (like we do with SF dps). crit% * crit dmg + (1-crit%) normal dmg

a MF should be weighed as "cast time" divided by "time dpsing" times the damage done by moonfire.

True, the difference, once I grabbed it, is a lot more than I thought it would be, nearly double. In all likelihood, though, if you aim for exactly 15s, you're either going to clip your MF ticks or spend a bit of time waiting for it to tick off. Realistically, anything past 125 haste you should be safe dropping MF from your rotation.

As for using the GCD as the cast time, again, it's misleading. You say I can do 2k DPS with Moonfire, but I can't. If I spam it on the GCD, I get 750*1.4/1.5 = 700 DPS. If I let it tick out, I get (750*1.4 + 450*5)/15 = 220 DPS. There is no possible way to use Moonfire that gives me 2k DPS.

[edit] Bah, knew I shouldn't have deleted the sheet. Lemme try and resurrect it. It had a simplified timing calc for MF, SFx5, counting it as 15s even when it was a bit more, so it should be even less haste needed. I'm at work, though, so it might take a bit.

nakedduck · 03/31/08, 5:02 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

True, the difference, once I grabbed it, is a lot more than I thought it would be, nearly double. In all likelihood, though, if you aim for exactly 15s, you're either going to clip your MF ticks or spend a bit of time waiting for it to tick off. Realistically, anything past 125 haste you should be safe dropping MF from your rotation.

I agree that you should never spam moonfire, clip ticks, or aim for 15 seconds. Simply reapply it when the last ticks off.

As for using the GCD as the cast time, again, it's misleading. You say I can do 2k DPS with Moonfire, but I can't. If I spam it on the GCD, I get 750*1.4/1.5 = 700 DPS. If I let it tick out, I get (750*1.4 + 450*5)/15 = 220 DPS. There is no possible way to use Moonfire that gives me 2k DPS.[/

again, I'm not saying that in real world applications you'll ever do 2k dps using just moonfire. However, when trying mathamtically trying to find it's "worth", it's safe to determine that you can drop MF once you hit this number via SF spam.

ps, if you get time can you break down how you came to the 125 haste rating to drop MF ? I don't see it.

edit: I fail at quoting

• Adoriele · 03/31/08, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by nakedduck

again, I'm not saying that in real world applications you'll ever do 2k dps using just moonfire. However, when trying mathamtically trying to find it's "worth", it's safe to determine that you can drop MF once you hit this number via SF spam.

ps, if you get time can you break down how you came to the 125 haste rating to drop MF ? I don't see it.

edit: I fail at quoting

That's just it, it's not a theory thing. It's gotta come back to the 'real world'. You're never gaining 2k DPS by spending a GCD on Moonfire. You're gaining around 3k damage, and only if you let it tick out. Trying to determine its DPS is only useful if you give it a useful amount of time to calculate with.

As for the 125 haste rating for dropping MF, the extra 60 or so DPS you get is coming from the fact that you're adding up all the cast times to divide by. Check to see if that's less than 15s. If it is (which it is), then you're clipping your last MF tick, but still counting it toward damage.

nakedduck · 03/31/08, 5:31 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

That's just it, it's not a theory thing. It's gotta come back to the 'real world'. You're never gaining 2k DPS by spending a GCD on Moonfire. You're gaining around 3k damage, and only if you let it tick out. Trying to determine its DPS is only useful if you give it a useful amount of time to calculate with.

As for the 125 haste rating for dropping MF, the extra 60 or so DPS you get is coming from the fact that you're adding up all the cast times to divide by. Check to see if that's less than 15s. If it is (which it is), then you're clipping your last MF tick, but still counting it toward damage.

You're only clipping the cast if you're cast the next SF in 15-SF cast time

Ok, I reedited my post to include NG. Show me where I'm wrong (math or in theory) and I mean that sincerely, I'm just not following you. The following are DPS values with 5 and 6 SF after the MF

Your quote, took my values based on this.

With about 125 haste rating, SF spam increases to 1620 DPS, which outstrips MF, SFx5.

With a 125 haste rating you get a SF cast of 2.5935.

Assuming:
(40% crit rate, 125 haste rating)
40% crit makes SF into an average base cast time of 2.8 seconds.

with 125 haste:

Now, let's calculate MF + SFx5
MF + SF x 5 will last:
2.59351 x 5 + 1.3893805 = 14.3569305 seconds
Damage done = sfx5 + MF
Each SF will do 1620 * 2.59351 = 4201.4862

since we cast 5 of them 4201.4862 * 5 = 21007.431
1 moonfire does about 3250

(21007.431 + 3250)/14.3569305 = 1689.5972993670199907981723530667 dps

Now, let's calculate MF + SFx6
MF + SF x 6 will last:
2.59351 x 6 + 1.3893805 = 16.9504405 seconds
Damage done = sfx6 + MF
Each SF will do 1620 * 2.59351 = 4201.4862

since we cast 6 of them 4201.4862 * 6 = 25208.9172
1 moonfire does about 3250

(25208.9172 + 3250)/14.3569305 = 1678.9485323405017114451981351163 dps

Both values are more than the SF spam dps

• Adoriele · 03/31/08, 5:38 PM

Originally Posted by nakedduck

You're only clipping the cast if you're cast the next SF in 15-SF cast time

(21007.431 + 3250)/14.3569305 = 1689.5972993670199907981723530667 dps

No. Bad. No biscuit. Definition of a MF, SFx5 rotation is MF, then 5 SFs. You're correct that it takes 14.357s to fill out this rotation. So what happens next? Another MOONFIRE. Not a Starfire. Which is instant. So you have one of 2 choices. Either you clip the last tick of your Moonfire dot, or you sit waiting for it to tick off, then cast your new Moonfire.

If you're going to use the entire dot, your rotation CANNOT last for a shorter period of time than the DoT does.

nakedduck · 03/31/08, 5:45 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

No. Bad. No biscuit. Definition of a MF, SFx5 rotation is MF, then 5 SFs. You're correct that it takes 14.357s to fill out this rotation. So what happens next? Another MOONFIRE. Not a Starfire. Which is instant. So you have one of 2 choices. Either you clip the last tick of your Moonfire dot, or you sit waiting for it to tick off, then cast your new Moonfire.

If you're going to use the entire dot, your rotation CANNOT last for a shorter period of time than the DoT does.

Ok.

1. Your posts indicated that with 125 haste rating and pudge's wws, it's better to SF spam than use moonfire in the rotation.

2. Mf + SF x 6 will increase increase his dps over SF spam

3. *even if we clip the last tick*, we get:

(21007.431 + (3250-450))/14.3569305 = 1658.2535521781623167988449898814 dps
which is still more than SF spam.

Again, don't talk to me like I'm an idiot.

eMagdAeH · 03/31/08, 6:17 PM

I think the other factor to take in to account is specific pieces of gear. Not all moonkins are geared exactly alike. Yes, the math says MF shouldn't be dropped at my current gear level. However, just having Quagmirran's Eye negates that even with the ICD. I'm bad at math, so I can't give numbers. What I can give is experience, which honestly is all that matters on a boss fight anyway. When I add MF instead of just spamming SF my DPS drops on average 150-200 DPS. I'll run trials again when I get T6 helm to go with the gloves, but until that point I can definitely say MF shouldn't be used in my specific case.

• Adoriele · 03/31/08, 6:23 PM

Originally Posted by nakedduck

Ok.

1. Your posts indicated that with 125 haste rating and pudge's wws, it's better to SF spam than use moonfire in the rotation.

2. Mf + SF x 6 will increase increase his dps over SF spam

3. *even if we clip the last tick*, we get:

(21007.431 + (3250-450))/14.3569305 = 1658.2535521781623167988449898814 dps
which is still more than SF spam.

Again, don't talk to me like I'm an idiot.

No. My posts indicated that with Pudge's stats and 125 haste, SF spam was better than MF, SFx5. I assumed, and having confirmed your math it was an incorrect assumption, that clipping was worse than not clipping. Mystifies me, but it is, in fact, a DPS decrease to let the Moonfire tick out. MF, SFx6 is of course also a DPS increase. It's also the inflection point, as MF, SFx7 is less than MF, SFx6.

Putting more and more haste into the sheet, there is no point where SF spam is better than adding MF to the rotation, as long as you allow yourself to clip Moonfire (God, that just feels wrong to say). Probably holds out even with higher +damage amounts, as the DD part of Moonfire scales better than the DoT (because it can crit, and because it's affected by haste).

[edit] eMagdAeH, are you running out of mana? This theorycrafting assumes infinite mana, and adding Moonfire into your rotation can be a serious mana drain, which may explain your discrepancy.

profet · 03/31/08, 6:27 PM

Any chance of a new version with 2.4 loot?

Bellawynn · 03/31/08, 6:44 PM

The current version (available off of a link in the OP) has 2.4 loots. In fact if you look at the default gear selection, most of the items selected are Sunwell drops.

nakedduck · 03/31/08, 6:57 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

No. My posts indicated that with Pudge's stats and 125 haste, SF spam was better than MF, SFx5. I assumed, and having confirmed your math it was an incorrect assumption, that clipping was worse than not clipping. Mystifies me, but it is, in fact, a DPS decrease to let the Moonfire tick out. MF, SFx6 is of course also a DPS increase. It's also the inflection point, as MF, SFx7 is less than MF, SFx6.

Putting more and more haste into the sheet, there is no point where SF spam is better than adding MF to the rotation, as long as you allow yourself to clip Moonfire (God, that just feels wrong to say). Probably holds out even with higher +damage amounts, as the DD part of Moonfire scales better than the DoT (because it can crit, and because it's affected by haste).

[edit] eMagdAeH, are you running out of mana? This theorycrafting assumes infinite mana, and adding Moonfire into your rotation can be a serious mana drain, which may explain your discrepancy.

I wouldn't say clipping the moonfire tick is a good idea. Check the dps given infinate time and it will support ticking out the moonfire MF + SFx[Number of SF's you can cast within a MF]

MFx1 + SF x 1000000000 will be better dps than SF spam until you get enough spell damage where 1 SF dps > (Moonfire hit + ticks)/(GCD)

eMagdAeH · 03/31/08, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

eMagdAeH, are you running out of mana? This theorycrafting assumes infinite mana, and adding Moonfire into your rotation can be a serious mana drain, which may explain your discrepancy.

Oh no, never really had mana problems except on some early SSC/TK fights while I was still getting geared up.

profet · 04/01/08, 1:16 AM

Originally Posted by Bellawynn

The current version (available off of a link in the OP) has 2.4 loots. In fact if you look at the default gear selection, most of the items selected are Sunwell drops.

I guess I'm looking for badge rewards.

Goedel · 04/01/08, 4:57 AM

Adoriele, you've said some things very well in this thread, and I may refer some misguided casters of various classes to your discussion of when hit rating is more or less valuable than damage. But I think you're making the MF evaluation seem more complicated than it need be. Really all that matters is whether the MF dps alone--taken, as Nakedduck has done, as the total damage from casting it divided by the time spent casting it (the GCD)--exceeds the SF dps--that is, total starfire damage divided by the average starfire cast time (including the effect of both haste and Nature's Grace procs). If it does, then replacing any SF with a MF that gets its full damage (i.e. is not clipped by overwriting or target death) increases dps; that is, the time that would have been spent on generating some amount of damage via SF is instead used to generate more total damage via MF. The more complete MF's are fit in, the greater the dps increase, as long as mana is not a concern. In cases of extreme disparity between MF and SF dps, clipping MF might be justified, but doing so is never necessary for MF's use.

Also (and this is directed at all parties evaluating idealized continuous models like fractional numbers of Starfire casts), everybody needs to keep in mind that there is no fixed cast rotation for any amount of haste including zero. Nature's Grace procs are variable; in practice one chain casts SF however many times it takes for the MF to have completed during the last SF's cast and then (again, when mana permits) reapplies MF. There are no set haste values that will make this more or less smooth. Trying to reapply MF exactly as the previous one completes will generally result in lost damage no matter how much haste one has, as the last SF cast is exceedingly unlikely to complete at that precise moment.

Efejel · 04/01/08, 6:03 AM

Sorry folks. Have been very busy in-game and have neglected to update, as well as to check this thread (for some reason I wasn't getting e-mails, and thought it was inactive.)

I'll try and push once more to accommodate the updated spirit mechanics and what 2.4 gear we're aware of at this point. WARNING: This may be the last update as Rawr and an online Moonkin simulator ( WoW Forums -> Moonkin DPS simulator. ) someone has released recently offer distinct advantages over the spreadsheet (namely: I don't have to release new versions of them every time an item of interest is added).