Can you point me at a source or explain your reasoning for how you're valuing the DPS impact of the proc effects on the SSO necklaces? Without calculating the proc DPS, the Guardian's Pendant of Subjugation, or Dominance if you don't like spell haste, seem to be better choices, contrary to your statement.
Wowhead says Aldor procs 120 +spell for ten seconds, fairly high proc rate (but I forget the number), with a 45s cooldown. It can proc on dots ticking. If you get the proc every 50s, that is 37 + 120 * 10/50 = 61 +spell. Compared to 28 spell + 24 haste for Subjugation (if you are willing to ignore the Stamina on Subjugation), you need to value haste at more than 1.3 times +spell for Subjugation to be ahead.
I believe Rawr Moonkin uses 37 + 120 * 10/45 for Aldor SSO Acumen. Probably a bit optimistic.
Edit: I was looking at Guardian's gemmed with Stamina for PvP. They do much better for raiding if gemmed for DPS. Duh. Much less certain that SSO is better, but no time for math right now.
Can you point me at a source or explain your reasoning for how you're valuing the DPS impact of the proc effects on the SSO necklaces? Without calculating the proc DPS, the Guardian's Pendant of Subjugation, or Dominance if you don't like spell haste, seem to be better choices, contrary to your statement.
This is also a question that was brought up by a lock in my guild. I currently am using Guardian's Pendant of Dominance w/ a +12 spl dmg in it. I believe there is a 45 second internal CD for the proc on SSO (Aldor) and within a 6 min fight it would only be able to proc 8 times max. I have not done the math as I am ninjaing this comp at my work and have to jet; is there anyone with a bit of time to work out the numbers to prove the Proc w/ CD > Dominance or Subjugation (including either +12 or +5 haste gems)?
Also just to clarify...
Originally Posted by Efejel
Many/most folks will not be logging in their "boss" gear. Swapping a ring, a cloak, a 2H weap or OH will probably hit cap any serious raider in T5 or beyond. Even if you see someone just off the hit cap (145-155 range) they may be waiting on "imminent" upgrades before regemming.
Haste can be roughly reduced to:
~1100 +dmg -> use haste / dmg gems in yellow slots with good bonuses
~1300 +dmg -> use haste / dmg gems in yellow OR red slots OR non-bonus slots (i.e. T6 chest)
~1400 +dmg -> use pure haste gems in yellow & non-socket bonus slots
(Always bearing in mind the 2 blue gems for meta activation)
And there's practically no PvE reason to ever gem for crit now that haste is available.
So seeing how I'm at 1209 bonus damage unbuffed and sitting just below 1400 raid buffed is it safe to say I should swap out all my +12 gems for haste now? or anything that would bring me over that 1400 raid buffed from here on out should be hastified? Thanks again
-Lath
(Page 70?!?! as i was... sorry for the duplicate question, thanks Erdluf)
Scryer SSO < Aldor SSO, but I'm not sure exactly where it fits in the list above. I suspect it is still above Subjugation.
If you don't have the mana for your preferred rotation, crit would be better than haste, but increasing your mana would really be the main priority (and Dominance at least has a bit more Int than the others).
Is 1203 raid buffed? At that level, for gems, spell > haste > crit (assuming you have the mana for haste). At 1400 buffed, spell gems are about equal to haste gems, and both are considerably better than crit.
God no, not 1203 raid buffed, that's without any buffs at all, and not counting DC: Crusade... I haven't gotten to spec Boomkin for a week or more, but I remember being over +1500 or so with full raid buffs.
lol, I realize this probably will have an effect on the answer you gave me =x.. so I'll be waiting patiently =D..
my rotation also is
IS, MF, and then Starfires until the dots run out, using the SF idol.
I do have to cast imp FF every once in a while..
so just wondering how much of a benefit haste would be for me over favouring crit.
~15% crit out of Boomkin form, 16.2 w/the guardians' conquest..
140mp5 casting
+1203 dmg[guardians conquest] +1206 dmg[sso acumen] unbuffed.
God no, not 1203 raid buffed, that's without any buffs at all, and not counting DC: Crusade... I haven't gotten to spec Boomkin for a week or more, but I remember being over +1500 or so with full raid buffs.
lol, I realize this probably will have an effect on the answer you gave me =x.. so I'll be waiting patiently =D..
I'm at like 9035 mana I think..
I configured Rawr with 1512 +spell, 19.53% crit in moonkin, 187 haste, hit capped (these numbers with SSO Acumen).
The Raw DPS contribution (ignores mana issues) (Guardians socketed with 5 crit 6 spell to get socket bonus) are listed as
Changing the Conquest gem to 12 spell, and its number rises, 39.62->40.69, so probably about a 1 DPS for the other Guardian's also.
These numbers will changed based on your exact gear, but their relative value isn't going to move all that much unless your gear level changes a lot.
I believe Rawr slightly (3-5%) overvalues the Aldor SSO, so that really makes it a toss-up between Conquest and SSO for DPS. If you PvP and PvE, consider gemming Conquest for PvP (where it is superior to SSO) and using SSO for PvE.
Other question:
The rule for gemming haste is to do it when your buffed +spell is 1400 above your buffed +haste (so don't get too much haste), and only if you aren't having mana issues.
I believe Rawr slightly (3-5%) overvalues the Aldor SSO, so that really makes it a toss-up between Conquest and SSO for DPS.
It does. This is intentional, since judging the actual proc time is a little more difficult. I may try to make it more realistic in the next release, when I can find time to finish the work I started.
I can't remember where on the forums I read it, but I seem to remember someone suggesting using a macro like this:
/cast Moonfire
/equip Unseen Moon
and back to Ivory Goddess or whatever on starfires.
Can anyone clarify on that? Does it work? Worth it?
Used to work, still works to an extent, but pretty heavily nerfed in 2.4.3 - now any idol/weapon swapping interrupts casts with a cast time. You could try the macro above [1] combined with /cast Insect Swarm /equip Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess [2] and Starfire [3] for a 1,2,3,3,3,3,1,2,etc. rotation but:
A) This forces you to include IS in your rotation, which is probably a DPS loss and
B) You'll lose the benefit of haste on the GCD reduction (at least, I have been led to believe the GCD from item swaps is NOT reduced by spell haste).
Why do people keep saying this? NO! It does not work. You get an extended GCD from idols swaps. You don't just ignore haste you also get your ping added to your GCD. This means your moonfire will take around 1.7 seconds to cast. Unless you play wow from Blizz HQ and don't have ANY lag to the server even with 0 haste you will get a severe dps decrease from idol swaps on anything but a starfire, and 2.4.3 made that impossible so idol swaps are a dead idea.
Why do people keep saying this? NO! It does not work. You get an extended GCD from idols swaps. You don't just ignore haste you also get your ping added to your GCD. This means your moonfire will take around 1.7 seconds to cast. Unless you play wow from Blizz HQ and don't have ANY lag to the server even with 0 haste you will get a severe dps decrease from idol swaps on anything but a starfire, and 2.4.3 made that impossible so idol swaps are a dead idea.
Hmm. I wonder if perhaps there might be a point where it becomes worth it to lose .2s in a 15s rotation for the possible benefit of having both a 50% chance of 140 spell damage, and an extra 55 to every starfire, rather than only one of them.
If you haven't realized by now, this is a game of making tradeoffs. Just because something isn't worthwhile for you doesn't mean it can never be.
Eh, it's kind of a grey area in between anyway. 1400 is better for knowing flat out that a haste gem is better than a spell damage gem, 1100 is just "Oh hey, Haste might actually be useful now".
Fully buffed. The game mechanics don't care wether you get your spell damage through gear or anything else.
Take into account the buffs that you're mostly certain to always have and work around that.
Hmm. I wonder if perhaps there might be a point where it becomes worth it to lose .2s in a 15s rotation for the possible benefit of having both a 50% chance of 140 spell damage, and an extra 55 to every starfire, rather than only one of them.
If you haven't realized by now, this is a game of making tradeoffs. Just because something isn't worthwhile for you doesn't mean it can never be.
My napkin math says not over 1.2k dps. At least the breaking even point should be rather low as it's an absolute gain compared to an increasing loss. And as mentioned haste pushes the breaking even point even lower as the time lost is increased.
Hey all, I'm considering picking up IFF, I'm going to drop FoN but would like to keep 4/5 pts. in Subtlety. That leaves me with a few options, I don't want to tweak with my damage talents so I'm faced with removing points from Intensity, Dreamstate or Moonglow. I'm leaning towards Dreamstate/Intensity, just wondering which is more valuable. I have 4 points to distribute among the 2 talents any of you math wizards know what the best combination is? Thanks in advance for your help.
If you can rely on having salvation from a pally, it'll probably just be easier to take a few points out of subtlety first. Even though you may be doing slightly more threat, your tank will too, so it's not as big of a problem as you might think. Besides that, I think it's been shown/commented that Dreamstate is a better choice to remove points from, particularly if you have a lot of Tiered gear which tends to have a good chunk of spirit. With less spirit you may want to check Efejel's spreadsheet to confirm which would be better to remove a point from.
Cowl of the Illidari High Lord
Spaulders of Devastation
Breeches of Natural Aggression
to try 4 piece t5 + 4 piece t6 on brutallus
i beat my previous best with 2 less heroisms, rolling drums myself, using imp FF, and insect swarm.
group comp was moonkin, resto shaman, shadowpriest, mage, mage
kinda makes me sad that this awesome gear went to waste because t5 does more damage.
my unbuffed stats with normal gear is
1248 damage
164 hit
23.6% crit (before moonkin aura, t6 set bonus, talents)
252 haste
Did your previous bests come in 5'45" kills, or closer to 6 min? And did they come with 3% crit from a ret pally? Other than that, well done--and on an unrelated note, wish I knew where 2600 DPS mages could be found!
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
Did your previous bests come in 5'45" kills, or closer to 6 min? And did they come with 3% crit from a ret pally? Other than that, well done--and on an unrelated note, wish I knew where 2600 DPS mages could be found!
my other previous best kill was in a 5:30 kill
had a ret paladin, ele shaman, 2 more heroisms
didnt use insect swarm either in my previous best (dont tell :P)
my casting rotation wearing 4 piece t5 / t6 was
mf / sf x3 / is / sf x
renewing FF when it falls off
i dont know if theres a better option for casting rotation to ensure that theres always a dot up for the t5 set bonus.
Of the apparently growing number of advanced SWP moonkins using 4pT5/4pT6, is there a consensus on which of the pre-Sunwell T6 pieces to use? We have one report of T6 gloves being better than T6 chest (and, given how crappy the T5 gloves are, this is no surprise), but I'd like to see other reports.
Of the apparently growing number of advanced SWP moonkins using 4pT5/4pT6, is there a consensus on which of the pre-Sunwell T6 pieces to use? We have one report of T6 gloves being better than T6 chest (and, given how crappy the T5 gloves are, this is no surprise), but I'd like to see other reports.
i used t5 head / shoulders / gloves / chest
i like the hit rating too much on the t6 pants to take those off.
I got a question for you sw raiding moonkins. We recently recruited a moonkin, and I dont really know all that much about how to judge his damage. On our latest brutkill he did ~1400 dps. He has 5 parts t6 and illidan staff. I wont ask how he can improve becuase im not intrested in that, just in how good he is as a player, since he is a initiate and all. Would you say that his dps was very low or decent? Keep in mind that we are working on muru now and im abit sceptical if I can bring him along or not.
A typical parse of a good moonkin in mostly complete MH/BT gear (but without Sunwell gear) is between 1500-1700 dps, depending on raid support (ele vs. resto shammy in group, drums, ret pally, etc). It's hard to do a detailed analysis without knowing gear, group makeup, and seeing a parse, but it is quite possible that your moonkin is underperforming.
i like the hit rating too much on the t6 pants to take those off.
You give up 20 hit on the T6 pants to gain 12 hit from the T6 gloves--you're still gonna be well over the 152 cap.
The net stat differential for going with T6 gloves & T5 pants is:
+2 sta, -9 int, -2 spi, -8 hit, +2 crit, -3 dmg, +7 mp5 & {YS: 2 dmg}
The socket is obviously the biggest deal there, netting you 10 haste & 2 dmg or 5 haste & 8 dmg...
Out of curiosity, what trinkets were you running?
"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
07/21/08, 6:03 PM
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