All of the calculations for spell damage, haste, crit, hit, etc. assume you have no mana issues. If you do, mana regen trumps everything. It does not, however, change their relationship substantially. Yes, there is the possibility that gemming a 12 damage gem means you don't go OOM while a haste/damage gem means you do, but that's such a narrow line to ride that I'd suggest you still need to work out your mana issues.
Yes I do know I need to improve it, but how? I mean when (if I ever get one) I have shadowpriest, I got no manaproblems at all - But it all goes to hell when I'm put with 4 warlocks and me, sure I boost theyr dps a bit, but... What about me? QQ I wanna do some sick dps too
I guess using mana food instead of spell dmg could work?
Yes I do know I need to improve it, but how? I mean when (if I ever get one) I have shadowpriest, I got no manaproblems at all - But it all goes to hell when I'm put with 4 warlocks and me, sure I boost theyr dps a bit, but... What about me? QQ I wanna do some sick dps too
I guess using mana food instead of spell dmg could work?
Looking at your armory, I'm seeing that you're quite a bit better off gear-wise that I am, so most of my usual questions won't apply. You've got about 11 less in-combat MP5 (unbuffed) than I do, and with 260 haste compared to my 24, you're casting about 15% faster, which means you're spending about 15% more mana on average. With 336 mana per SF, that's about 50 extra mana you're spending every 3s, or 83 MP5, so in effect you have almost 100 less MP5 than I do.
For comparison, without any outside mana sources on a pure tank&spank (Vashj phase 1), I use almost exactly half a mana bar in 1:30, which I'll extrapolate to going OOM in 5 min with chain potting an innervate, so I'm not surprised you're having problems. Try adding a last point into Dreamstate (Subtlety is the likeliest place to pull it from), it'll give you another 15 MP5 unbuffed. Switching to Mana food is an idea, as is switching to mana oil (the SWP oil would be good, too). You might also try switching from a flask to using Adept's/Draenic. Other than that, you're going to either need to be better potting and innervating if it's possible, or you'll need to convince your RL that the drop in personal DPS is too much if you don't get a Spriest.
I have ran into a problem and I have come here seeking help. My druid has been resto since preBC and up till recently i raided as resto. However i took a break and came back to WoW to a sunwell guild as a moonkin. I have pretty good gear so far with 4/8 T6 and a few other t6 level items but i know some items are lacking. What i have come for is help with gemming.
Backstory
When i was picking up moonkin offspec item i just gemmed the +4 crit/+5 spell damage gems since it as really before haste became a big thing. This was preZA if i remember correctly.
The guild i am in now is 5/6 Sunwell and i know that in a short time i will be getting the bracers, belt, and boots at a minimum. And that has really left me at a cross roads on what to gem for.
Basically the gems i am trying to decide between are
+5 crit/+6 spell damage
+12 spell damage
+5 haste +6 spell damage
+10 haste
I have pretty much ruled out the pure +12 spell damage as crit or haste seems to give a better boost according to the spread sheet.
Now it comes down to how good will haste be for me at this level? if i go with the +5 haste and +6 spell damage i can get around 100 haste which according to the spreadsheet is about a 50 point dps loss compared to +5 crit +6 spell damage. Going with pure +10 haste gems is by far the worst according to the spread sheet with almost a 100 point dps loss. However i am knowing that i will be getting more upgrades in the future and am trying to gem in advance for them instead of having to regem completely.
Doing some research it appears that around 200 haste is where you start really benefiting from the haste. and once i get new weapons and off hands that will bring me closer to that mark.
Basically i am confused and lost as to how i should really gem my gear. I know locks and mages all want +5 haste +6 spell damage but are moonkins the same? or would pure +10 haste really be where it is at?
also any names of good geared moonkins would be great. i have tried to find some through this thread but either missed them or just couldn't find any really in sunwell gear.
If im not remembering this all wrong you get more dps out of a haste-dmg gem than a crit-dmg at 1077 (or 1070) spelldmg. At 13xx your increase is bigger with pure haste gems. All this can be read earlier in this thread (just cant find it atm). Madrox was an imba moonkin before my break, think he played in the US somewhere.
I knew about madrox but he does not seem to be playing anymore. Or more he does not seem to have gone for haste really at all.
I did try looking through the thread but after 20 pages or so it gets a little boring. I did find and use the Stat Calc spreadsheet posted earlier and it showed in my gear that haste was the better choice but not by that much. (like a .2 difference which i guess i rather large come to think of it) I did decide to go ahead with the 5 haste 6 damage gems as it seemed to work the best for still being viable dps and planning for the future. Though if someone straight up tells me to go 10 haste gems now i probably would consider it as i get new gear.
Now, I'm spell hit capped with 1256 spell damage, 20.29 spell crit in moonkin form and points in all appropriate places in the balance tree. Be.imba says my toon is in top shape. Yet I consistently do only between 800-900 dps. For instance, a recent Mt. Hyjal outing:
Now, I can talk about how I lost dps because I died or had to battle rez someone, but the numbers on that report are typical, whether or not I die or brez. I'm usually in the top 10 but not top 5, and my other guildies have pretty much the same level of gear I have. My spreadsheet skills, alas, are nonexistent, but even so I think 800-900 dps is extremely low for me. What do you think? How much should someone with my stats do in terms of dps?
On a related topic, I had been playing with spell haste, but since I consistently ran into mana problems I have started to stack crit instead (sometimes I use the sextant of unstable currents instead of the icon). I do have t5 legs and shoulders which I got for the mana regen but I'm not sure how much that would help, except at the most I can change the crit gem on my belt. My spell haste would still be around 50 so I doubt that makes a difference.
Velilen, easy things for you to do to up your gear-
A) Get the Fetish of Primal Gods from the Badge Vendor. There's really no reason to be using Karaborian Talismman.
B) Get the Guardian's Pendant of Subjugation and throw a Haste/Dam or pure Haste gem in there (I went with pure Haste.)
C) The Badge +hit ring is better than the Violet Signet (And of course, Mana Attuned/Loop of Forged Power are even better.)
D) If you regem your boots, it's probably worth it to match the colors, going with Yellow/Purple or Orange/Purple.
Now, I'm spell hit capped with 1256 spell damage, 20.29 spell crit in moonkin form and points in all appropriate places in the balance tree. Be.imba says my toon is in top shape. Yet I consistently do only between 800-900 dps. For instance, a recent Mt. Hyjal outing:
Now, I can talk about how I lost dps because I died or had to battle rez someone, but the numbers on that report are typical, whether or not I die or brez. I'm usually in the top 10 but not top 5, and my other guildies have pretty much the same level of gear I have. My spreadsheet skills, alas, are nonexistent, but even so I think 800-900 dps is extremely low for me. What do you think? How much should someone with my stats do in terms of dps?
On a related topic, I had been playing with spell haste, but since I consistently ran into mana problems I have started to stack crit instead (sometimes I use the sextant of unstable currents instead of the icon). I do have t5 legs and shoulders which I got for the mana regen but I'm not sure how much that would help, except at the most I can change the crit gem on my belt. My spell haste would still be around 50 so I doubt that makes a difference.
The first thing I notice when looking at your WWS is that you're chaining Wrath instead of Starfire. This is bad, stop doing it. I'm not kidding. Your locks are putting up CoE, you get MUCH more benefit by using Starfire instead of Wrath, and your mana issues will decrease as well.
Second: On your Rage kill, you spend only 4:13 out of 8:03 casting. And you didn't die. Even if you cast Rebirth, there's no excuse for only DPSing for HALF of the fight. On Anetheron, you spend 2:58 out of 8:20. That's 37% of the fight! What on earth are you doing that causes you to spend more time doing NOTHING than casting. In fact, you're spending almost twice as much time doing nothing than you are doing your job. There's absolutely no excuse for that.
Third: if you're not going to gem for haste because of your mana issues (which should be solved by using Starfire instead of Wrath), at least gem for straight up damage. Crit is worth half of what spell damage is worth unless you have a crit-based trinket, and even then it doesn't approach being 1:1. You're only shooting yourself in the foot by gemming for crit.
The first thing I notice when looking at your WWS is that you're chaining Wrath instead of Starfire. This is bad, stop doing it. I'm not kidding. Your locks are putting up CoE, you get MUCH more benefit by using Starfire instead of Wrath, and your mana issues will decrease as well.
Second: On your Rage kill, you spend only 4:13 out of 8:03 casting. And you didn't die. Even if you cast Rebirth, there's no excuse for only DPSing for HALF of the fight. On Anetheron, you spend 2:58 out of 8:20. That's 37% of the fight! What on earth are you doing that causes you to spend more time doing NOTHING than casting. In fact, you're spending almost twice as much time doing nothing than you are doing your job. There's absolutely no excuse for that.
Third: if you're not going to gem for haste because of your mana issues (which should be solved by using Starfire instead of Wrath), at least gem for straight up damage. Crit is worth half of what spell damage is worth unless you have a crit-based trinket, and even then it doesn't approach being 1:1. You're only shooting yourself in the foot by gemming for crit.
Like he said, SF >> Wrath. It is much more mana efficient and better dps with COE up. That must be the reason you are mana deprived even though you are 3/3 dreamstate and 3/3 intensity. I assume you are using your own innervate. Anyway if your are short on mana, spell dam gems are best with spell/crit ones for your yellow slots where the socket bonus is worth it.
Your dps time does seem low, usually DOTs ticking should keep you in the mid-high 90's even while dodging things like Rage's D&D
Also do you need 5/5 subtlety? You can probably get away with take 2-3 from it and 1-2 from Dreamstate and get iFF? For more raid synergy and the increased tank aggro from less misses helps balance the loss of subtlety.
Lastly, argue for a Spriest (one way to get one is to offer to take iFF in exchange for a SPriest) and\or an Ele shammy (even a reg shammy's Wrath of air, mana and heroism are large dps buffs). Both will give you more mana + DPS and a ele shammy would also let you swap out some +hit gear
Ok, thanks for the input. I will probably return to regemming for haste/crit.
My guild's raid group has pretty much been set in stone by the officers. Even if it wasn't, we usually don't have an (active) spriest, and our (active) shammies seem to prefer either resto or enhancement. The one elemental shaman we had decided he wanted to go back to enhancement. Instead, all or most of the raid mages are put in my group, plus a resto shammy, the argument being the raid benefits the most with as many mages as possible getting moonkin aura, as we usually have only two locks who are put in the tank groups.
As for the rest, I am now guessing my biggest problem is the mobility issue. For instance, I actually used to chain-cast SF but for some reason it made my dps go down even more. Now I suspect it's the case because the longer cast time of SF made it harder for me cast while running around. Not really sure how to address this apart from changing my boot enchant. Or maybe it's practice, or key bindings. hmmm
Ok, thanks for the input. I will probably return to regemming for haste/crit.
My guild's raid group has pretty much been set in stone by the officers. Even if it wasn't, we usually don't have an (active) spriest, and our (active) shammies seem to prefer either resto or enhancement. The one elemental shaman we had decided he wanted to go back to enhancement. Instead, all or most of the raid mages are put in my group, plus a resto shammy, the argument being the raid benefits the most with as many mages as possible getting moonkin aura, as we usually have only two locks who are put in the tank groups.
As for the rest, I am now guessing my biggest problem is the mobility issue. For instance, I actually used to chain-cast SF but for some reason it made my dps go down even more. Now I suspect it's the case because the longer cast time of SF made it harder for me cast while running around. Not really sure how to address this apart from changing my boot enchant. Or maybe it's practice, or key bindings. hmmm
No, you need to figure out why you're moving around so much. Even on Rage, you shouldn't be moving for more than a couple seconds every few minutes. Bad luck on DnD aside, there's no reason to move. Anetheron, since you seem to be ignoring infernals, requires movement only if you're the one he drops it on. You're not a healer, you shouldn't be trying to dodge Carrion Swarm, and it wouldn't be effective even if you did.
You mention tanks groups. Plural. This is not the way raids should be set up. They need to figure out that one tank group is enough, and if the tanks need Blood Pact that much, they're doing it wrong. Destro Locks tend to gain more benefit from our aura than mages do, and should be priority. Recruit an Ele shammy and a Spriest if your raiders aren't willing to change.
If you have to move, go ahead and drop insect swarm. Use it even if you don't use it in your regular rotation because Wrath and SF are higher DPS.
It is almost certain that (move + IS) is higher DPS than (move + nothing).
Even at levels where IS starts to fail for DPS reasons, it is still very good for DPM. If you don't have (and can't get) the mana to maintain SF-spam, then keep increasing your use of IS until either
- IS is always up.
- You have the mana to maintain SF during every GC where you aren't casting IS.
It boggles me when I look at moonkin WWS's sometimes and druids don't even have a point of insect swarm damage done. People have had the idea of insect swarm being extremely bad hammered into their heads. It's not bad, its just not as good as moonfire is. There are just so many fights now that require mandatory movement to avoid boss abilities. If you have a moonfire ticking on the boss already and you need to move, throw up an insect swarm as you move your character and refresh IFF no matter if its still high on duration or not. It's an easy way to squeeze out some extra damage for a low mana cost.
IS is excellent as an initial cast as you're moving into position, gaining damage where you otherwise would have done none , it's ALWAYS valuable to be used when you have to move even a LITTLE bit. It allows you to make small shifts in position and still be doing some damage. There are fights like Mother and RoS P1 where the miss chance is actually very valuable. On a fight like Azgalor you can toss it on before the expected silence to have damage ticking during time you were going to be doing nothing. The key thing to leveraging IS is to condition yourself to ALWAYS cast it when you move for ANY reason. At this point for me it's ingrained to the point I do it when farming if I have to move. That's how you want it to be.
Velilen, easy things for you to do to up your gear-
A) Get the Fetish of Primal Gods from the Badge Vendor. There's really no reason to be using Karaborian Talismman.
B) Get the Guardian's Pendant of Subjugation and throw a Haste/Dam or pure Haste gem in there (I went with pure Haste.)
C) The Badge +hit ring is better than the Violet Signet (And of course, Mana Attuned/Loop of Forged Power are even better.)
D) If you regem your boots, it's probably worth it to match the colors, going with Yellow/Purple or Orange/Purple.
I am working on getting a better offhand. though i dont really want to buy a badge item when i should be getting anew offhand from Sunwell pretty soon it does seem to be the best choice for now. and 35 badges is pretty easy to get as well.
yeah the neck needs to go. i just transferred so still trying to find an arena team but shouldn't be to hard since i can go resto and just buy the moonkin one as well. Thanks for the tip though since i never thought of it to be honest.
Will be getting a better ring soon enough whether it is badge or sunwell/BT type ring.
The boots i didnt regem just cause i will be getting the T6 boots from sunwell pretty dang soon.
I do appreciate the tips. Made me think about items i hadn't really considered as of yet.
The Neck's honor, and doesn't require an arena rating. Also, don't be afraid to grab Chronicles instead of Heart of the Pit- they're nearly identical DPS wise.
The Neck's honor, and doesn't require an arena rating. Also, don't be afraid to grab Chronicles instead of Heart of the Pit- they're nearly identical DPS wise.
opps didnt realize it didnt have a rating. Chronicles is pretty much out as my guild does not run hyjal anymore
First of all I'd like to thank all of you better players for guiding me to the right direction trough these hard times in
BT and Sunwell. You guys really helped me get as much damage out of me as possible and showed me what a moonkin is capable of. You motivated me and kept me going. Thank you.
I always knew the tier5 (4)-set bonus is good. Very good. However I did not realize it was totally insane.
I finally got the final "new" piece of tier6, the boots, thus making it four pieces of t6 and four pieces of t5 on me.
Brutallus. Dps. At last I was able to test this combination in a real raid situation and I can tell you. It was.. just overwhelming. It was a totally different experience.
My group consisted of a holy paladin, holy priest, shadow priest, a restoration shaman and me. Not the most optimal group but I had what I wanted. Totems, Bloodlust and manamana-du-duu-du-du-du.
What really inspired me was a wws-report from Shaven who had dealt over 2,1k dps (?) and he had had a few burns as well.
Well, I have still have a long way to get to that point but this is just a beginning. This is where the dps starts.
Thank you all for being partially responsible for making this happen.
Guess I should give a quick rundown of my stats unbuffed
1230 spell dmg
17.3% crit
Spell Hit Capped
I do spellqueuing my spells for increased dps (avg lag is 200 ms)
of note I use recount for my DPS meter seemed to be the best one I could find
Anyways so I use the chart and it says with my gear and buffs without (spriest, elemental shaman, etc). So it says I should be getting around 1285 with IS, MF, SFx3 and 1222 with Starfire Only. However when actually in the raid using those rotations on trash, Lurker, or A'lar for and reading the results on the fights that are mostly just tank and spank.
I've come to a weird conclusion that just spamming Starfire produces more dps. With rotation 1 I get about 900-1000 dps and spamming starfire gets me around 1000-1200 and of course I'm talking about pure dps
(hard to get an accurate read beyond that range due to buffs such as nature's grasp and my quag's eye, etc.)
So I'm curious is it something I'm doing wrong to not achieve these marks or is something wrong with the chart (v.80), or is it due to the spellqueuing which seems like a rather large discrepancy. I appreciate all help that could be given on the matter.
Guess I should give a quick rundown of my stats unbuffed
1230 spell dmg
17.3% crit
Spell Hit Capped
I do spellqueuing my spells for increased dps (avg lag is 200 ms)
of note I use recount for my DPS meter seemed to be the best one I could find
Anyways so I use the chart and it says with my gear and buffs without (spriest, elemental shaman, etc). So it says I should be getting around 1285 with IS, MF, SFx3 and 1222 with Starfire Only. However when actually in the raid using those rotations on trash, Lurker, or A'lar for and reading the results on the fights that are mostly just tank and spank.
I've come to a weird conclusion that just spamming Starfire produces more dps. With rotation 1 I get about 900-1000 dps and spamming starfire gets me around 1000-1200 and of course I'm talking about pure dps
(hard to get an accurate read beyond that range due to buffs such as nature's grasp and my quag's eye, etc.)
So I'm curious is it something I'm doing wrong to not achieve these marks or is something wrong with the chart (v.80), or is it due to the spellqueuing which seems like a rather large discrepancy. I appreciate all help that could be given on the matter.
It's hard to say. For one, you'll notice lower DPS in a DoT-heavy rotation simply because no parser handles DoTs incredibly well. If you put them up, then have to move, it counts the entire time you're moving as time casting, and that lowers your DPS. For two, if you're putting up iFF (armory's down so I can't check if you have it), you're losing about 3.5% DPS from spreadsheet simply by the lost GCD. Lastly, the spreadsheet may not be accurately reflecting your actual fights (this quite likely). You're never going to have 5 minutes uninterrupted casting on a boss to just unload completely. The best marker I've seen is to check your DPS on a fight where you have a good 3 full rotations uninterrupted at the start (Vashj Phase 1 works perfectly, I can work in 6 almost exactly, as long as I don't get Static Charge). Make sure Recount is set to show only the current fight, and see how much DPS you do before you get interrupted. Compare to a rotation on the spreadsheet (or Rawr) where you don't OOM. It ignores mana entirely, but I've always been of the opinion that you should mainly gear for straight DPS, then take care of mana as needed on fights by swapping in a mana trinket or switching oils when you know mana will be an issue.
Well Adoriele you definitely make some good points so I'm going to have to give good ole trusty doctorboom a shot to see if I can get some better data to work with. However I did list lurker for that reason :P (bout the closest you can get to a just sit there and spam your rotation with no interruption fight) and whenever I did rotation 1 it was way lower compared to spamming starfire. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this.
Blitz, save a /combatlog and make sure you aren't clipping your DoTs. If you are fast, MF IS SF*3 will often be under 12s, meaning you lose the last tick of both MF and IS. It is almost always better to refresh a DoT one SF too late, rather than one too early.
Edit: Just to be clear, if MF debuff is still up after MF IS SF*3, cast another SF. Don't cast MF or just wait for the last tick to finish.
I love the spreadsheet, but im having trouble finding under the trinkets list the sorcere's stone that increases the spell dmge by 63 ( [Sorcerer's Alchemist Stone] ). any ideas?
Okay, a problem I'm sure alot of you have come across. I'm a moonkin in SWP yet I find it impossibly hard to even get a spot for raiding and when I get a place I'm switched out at the first possibility. My stats are
Unbuffed. I use slightly lower spellhit as I always get a Draeni with +1% spell hit (either Priest or Shammy).
My dps/damage isn't too bad at around 1700-1800 dps yet I always get switched out. Is there any advice anyone can give me to increase my dps more to get a constant raiding spot? I.e, what I should be gemming, should I stack more spell haste or just keep increasing my spell damage. My rotation atm is SF spam. I'm a bit unsure if MF would increase or lower my dps. Also is the Ashtongue trinket better than Icon of the Silver Cresent? Thanks in advance for all your help.
08/02/08, 6:41 AM
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