Okay, a problem I'm sure alot of you have come across. I'm a moonkin in SWP yet I find it impossibly hard to even get a spot for raiding and when I get a place I'm switched out at the first possibility. My stats are
Unbuffed. I use slightly lower spellhit as I always get a Draeni with +1% spell hit (either Priest or Shammy).
My dps/damage isn't too bad at around 1700-1800 dps yet I always get switched out. Is there any advice anyone can give me to increase my dps more to get a constant raiding spot? I.e, what I should be gemming, should I stack more spell haste or just keep increasing my spell damage. My rotation atm is SF spam. I'm a bit unsure if MF would increase or lower my dps. Also is the Ashtongue trinket better than Icon of the Silver Cresent? Thanks in advance for all your help.
Your gemming currently seems pretty optimal. Maybe swapping Lionseyes for Pyrestones would eek out a couple DPS, but it's probably not worth the cost of regemming, since I doubt changing from 1800 to 1804 would change anyone's mind. Without seeing a WWS parse, I can't speak to whether there's anything you'll need to do to tighten your rotations, so you're going to be most successful on two fronts: 1.) Moonfire is definitely going to be worth it to put back in your rotation. Especially with 2T6, you're getting a lot of damage out of a single GCD. 2.) Try to convince your raid leader of the utility of iFF. Automatically you're giving 3% more DPS to anyone who's threat-capped, which usually means 3% more DPS from your best DPSrs. You're also adding non-trivial white DPS to any dual-wielders, and if you're consistent enough with showing up, they can re-gear to take advantage of it. 3% hit for a melee is about 48 stat points that they don't have to spend on hit.
Cheers for the speedy response. About the Ashtongue trinket though, is there a spell haste point where it becomes a good trinket to use? As, if that happens, it may be worth re-gemming the haste just to get an increase of dps from said trinket.
It’s a matter of dps. By comparison with other druids I have a substantial lack of chance to crit. I have read in more than one place that we should not gem for it but I have socketed some gems that have spell crit as well spell dmge. My spell hit is a little high; working on changing that very soon — it’s 177. My haste is very low and since it’s so low I was considering to regem it and just add more dps instead …or maybe CtC.
My average rotation is for bosses is MFx1 SFx4 for none bosses is MFx1 Wx6. In some bosses I add ISx1 to my rotation. By my account I’m doing from 892-1010 dmg (BT and Hyjal). I feel this is very low considering that I see some fellow moonkins talking about much more than that.
While I’m lucky enuf to be in a guild that’s taking me along, I can’t rely on pure luck forever. I wanna be like one of U uber moonkins. What I am lacking? Pls help!
My spell stats are:
1266 spell dmg
17.83 spell crit
177 spell hit
67 spell haste
Don't gem crit, spell haste will out do it, my crit have comes naturally from my gear. That extra spell hit you have you can get rid of, maybe by changing your cape for pvp spell haste one from badges. What group are you normally put in as well?
Cheers for the speedy response. About the Ashtongue trinket though, is there a spell haste point where it becomes a good trinket to use? As, if that happens, it may be worth re-gemming the haste just to get an increase of dps from said trinket.
To be honest, I've never done any real work with the Ashtongue trinket, so I don't know. It's probable that there's a sort of haste zone where equipping the Ashtongue will decide whether you want to gem for haste or for more damage, but I have no idea where it is or whether you're in it. You might try seeing what happens in RAWR (I don't think the sheet models the Ashtongue offhand).
Originally Posted by kaldorei
I need some help.
It’s a matter of dps. By comparison with other druids I have a substantial lack of chance to crit. I have read in more than one place that we should not gem for it but I have socketed some gems that have spell crit as well spell dmge. My spell hit is a little high; working on changing that very soon — it’s 177. My haste is very low and since it’s so low I was considering to regem it and just add more dps instead …or maybe CtC.
My average rotation is for bosses is MFx1 SFx4 for none bosses is MFx1 Wx6. In some bosses I add ISx1 to my rotation. By my account I’m doing from 892-1010 dmg (BT and Hyjal). I feel this is very low considering that I see some fellow moonkins talking about much more than that.
While I’m lucky enuf to be in a guild that’s taking me along, I can’t rely on pure luck forever. I wanna be like one of U uber moonkins. What I am lacking? Pls help!
My spell stats are:
1266 spell dmg
17.83 spell crit
177 spell hit
67 spell haste
First, get rid of the excess hit. If you have an ele shammy most of the time, you're wasting 77 stat points on hit that you don't need to be. Blue gems are cheap, regear now. If you're still not below 101, start looking for drops without hit on them. There's no reason to have that much hit. Second, like Kai said, don't gem for Crit either. If you're not getting benefit from haste (though I'm pretty sure you are), gem for pure damage. It's ALWAYS a safe bet to gem for pure damage. Lastly, without a WWS report to look at, there's no way to know how you're performing. Rotations are good and all, but a Moonkin that keeps a tight IS, MF, SFx4 rotation will ALWAYS out-DPS a Moonkin who runs a sloppy MF, SFx4 rotation, even though theoretically the latter is better.
Cheers for the speedy response. About the Ashtongue trinket though, is there a spell haste point where it becomes a good trinket to use? As, if that happens, it may be worth re-gemming the haste just to get an increase of dps from said trinket.
I'm at a point where in my hit-capped gear I can push 2.79 sec and 2.33 sec post-crit Starfires.
2.79 + 2.79 + 2.33 = 7.91 sec
The key here is I'm able to make use of the buff on 3 Starfire casts after a proc with only one crit. Take even a little bit of that haste away (2.85 + 2.85 + 2.39 = 8.09 sec) and the value of the Ashtongue trinket drops immensely. Also, under Bloodlust I can pull ~2.15 sec / 1.79 sec splits meaning that with 2 crits I can keep the buff up over 4 casts.
Quick crit-rate calcs:
% crit - chance to have at least 1 crit in 3 casts (the cast that procs the buff or the next 2)
30% - 65.7%
33% - 70.0%
35% - 72.5%
37% - 75.0%
40% - 78.4%
When I get a moment to sign-in and check, I'll let you know what level of haste I'm at, but I believe it's ~135 (EDIT: It's 120, 137 in my ToW set). On one hand, this means I'm at a sort of "plateau" where my exact amount of haste is nearly optimal for my rotation and trinket use, but it doesn't mean I won't benefit from more haste, just that the benefit from haste will be more linear until I can get my non-crit casts to 2.66 sec (175-ish haste) where there will be a moderate jump to a new plateau. That ratio will then be linear until I can get my non-crit casts to 2.18 sec (430-ish haste) for a non bloodlust chance at 4 casts per proc with 2 crits.
This is all just the trinket-based haste considerations. I'm also discounting the amount of haste needed to get 4 casts per proc on 1 crit while bloodlusted (2.08 sec / 1.73 sec spits or ~156 haste) and 5 casts per proc on 2 crits while BLusted (1.71 sec / 1.42 sec splits or ~408 haste) and so on and so forth, as well as the effect of trying to include how close various amounts of haste come to "ideal rotations" for maintaining Moonfire with minimal downtime and never clipping accounting for the most probable amount of crits per cycle...
I guess the short version is this: if you're moderately well geared, and Ashtongue Exalted, you should gem at least sparingly for haste if/when you decide to use your trinket. When your Starfire cast time falls below 2.66, it's definitely time to at least give the trinket a try.
Last edited by Efejel : 08/13/08 at 7:27 PM.
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I need some help with a moonkin persephonie in our guild. She is one of our better geared dpsers but struggles to do the dps that i think she is capable of. I'm the GM and i'm trying to sort of audit some of the lower dpsers and try to help them get better.
By looks of the WWS, her active DPS time is fairly low (26%) compared to the other DPSers (up to 49%). Her skill rotation and gems/gear selection are fine (though I'm not sure the Ashtongue trinket is optimal for her haste rating).
Keep in mind that keeping iFF up will knock a moonkin down ~6% DPS.
yea, i don't know what her rotation is from the report but looking at the gorefiend fight she has 98% presence and 96% dps time so i don't know why she is 13th on damage, 14th on dps. It just doesn't make sense to me on a pure dps fight like that with her gear. She has the [Sextant of Unstable Currents]. I think that might be better than the ashtongue but i don't think it is really the whole issue here.
yea, i don't know what her rotation is from the report but looking at the gorefiend fight she has 98% presence and 96% dps time so i don't know why she is 13th on damage, 14th on dps. It just doesn't make sense to me on a pure dps fight like that with her gear. She has the [Sextant of Unstable Currents]. I think that might be better than the ashtongue but i don't think it is really the whole issue here.
Other thing to take into account for the Gorefiend fight is that anyone that becomes a ghost will minimum be putting out 2,000-6,000 DPS alone because of the massive damage done by the Ice Lance on the constructs. So if you take those out of the equation (normally the top 5) then she really is not doing too bad. There is always room for improvement and she may need to work on her timing with her rotation (I suggest Quarts), but this fight is not the best to judge damage unless you take ghosts into account in my opinion.
(EDIT: Added)
Considering her haste I would say FF MFx2 SFx7-8 (FF->MF->SF->SF->SF->SF->MF->SF->SF->SF->(FF/SF/FF)
Nvm, looked at the specific boss reports, she's casting Insect Swarm on bosses, that's going to cut into her DPS at her gear level. Dropping that should up her DPS noticeably.
I do not believe that below 1570 or so haste, including rolling drums and two Blood Lusts/Heroisms on a 5-6 min fight you can get a SF only rotation that is better than including MF in it... Either that or all the gear available in the game right now cannot promote that combination that I know of. Feel free to correct me on that one guys.
I need some help with a moonkin persephonie in our guild. She is one of our better geared dpsers but struggles to do the dps that i think she is capable of. I'm the GM and i'm trying to sort of audit some of the lower dpsers and try to help them get better.
Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. She was only present for teron, RoS, and BB on the WWS.
Thanks!
I'll echo Kath on the gearing. Only one gem I see that's flat wrong, the Potent gem in her chest, other wise she could use an upgrade on the Neck perhaps (grab her the one off of Eagle in ZA, it's a healer neck but it's practically best-in-slot anyway), and she may get better use from a different trinket than the Ashtongue, but nothing glaring.
As for performance, on BB, she did 837 DPS. Calculating out her casting time (ignoring haste), she's spending barely under 3 minutes out of the 6 and a half the kill took. Her DPS time is 5'48", which means there were significant portions of the fight where all she was doing is tossing up DoTs. Not being familiar with the exact mechanics of the fight, there may have been a reason for that, and it will REALLY kill a WWS parse. Check to see if there was any reason for her to not be casting during that time. If not, she needs to work on not idling.
I'll echo Kath on the gearing. Only one gem I see that's flat wrong, the Potent gem in her chest, other wise she could use an upgrade on the Neck perhaps (grab her the one off of Eagle in ZA, it's a healer neck but it's practically best-in-slot anyway), and she may get better use from a different trinket than the Ashtongue, but nothing glaring.
As for performance, on BB, she did 837 DPS. Calculating out her casting time (ignoring haste), she's spending barely under 3 minutes out of the 6 and a half the kill took. Her DPS time is 5'48", which means there were significant portions of the fight where all she was doing is tossing up DoTs. Not being familiar with the exact mechanics of the fight, there may have been a reason for that, and it will REALLY kill a WWS parse. Check to see if there was any reason for her to not be casting during that time. If not, she needs to work on not idling.
yea, I just think she is doing something wrong and i'm trying to figure it out. She didn't get fel enrage or anything like that. She might have been high threat or something to stop casting for so long. I can't really remember specifically but she should be right up there with the same dps time as the rest of the casters. Insect swarm is definitely going to hurt her dps. She insists on doing it because she says it helps. I don't know a whole lot about boomkins so i'm trying to figure it out. When would it ever be good to use insect swarm?
I appreciate all of the feedback. like i said, i don't think it's a gear issue. I think it's a playstyle or rotation issue. She is a very "i'm a utility class, i buff everyone else so i don't do good dps" type. She is right to a certain extent but i'm just trying to help improve her a bit.
yea, I just think she is doing something wrong and i'm trying to figure it out. She didn't get fel enrage or anything like that. She might have been high threat or something to stop casting for so long. I can't really remember specifically but she should be right up there with the same dps time as the rest of the casters. Insect swarm is definitely going to hurt her dps. She insists on doing it because she says it helps. I don't know a whole lot about boomkins so i'm trying to figure it out. When would it ever be good to use insect swarm?
I appreciate all of the feedback. like i said, i don't think it's a gear issue. I think it's a playstyle or rotation issue. She is a very "i'm a utility class, i buff everyone else so i don't do good dps" type. She is right to a certain extent but i'm just trying to help improve her a bit.
She's not right. I'm pulling better DPS than she is with much less gear. I was originally excited when I saw her get 1300 DPS on RoS, because I thought it must mean she had something blocking her on BB, but then I remembered Deaden and checked her average hits, which were much higher (because of Deaden), so she was still doing pretty poorly. She should be hitting 1300 DPS WITHOUT Deaden. If she's threat-capping at 837 DPS, you need a new tank, it's that simple. She has 10% -threat from talents and her cloak, there's no way she should be out-threating a competent tank in BT.
As for IS, it's a difference of 20-50 DPS, depending on gear. It's not a HUGE hit to cast it, and if it helps your tanks out then it's well worth the loss. Same with iFF, which is about a 3% hit, not 6%, and increases a lot of other people's DPS by 3%, including raising the threat cap. Personally I still cast it simply because I always have, and because I haven't asked our tanks what fights I should drop it from yet.
Insect swarm is good for use if your tank having 2% more avoidance would make or break an encounter, that's it. It's really not worth the DPS loss because it scales so terribly, and the avoidance is iffy at best.
Insect swarm is good for use if your tank having 2% more avoidance would make or break an encounter, that's it. It's really not worth the DPS loss because it scales so terribly, and the avoidance is iffy at best.
In BT the only fights I use IS on P1 RoS and Mother (For avoidance), and Supremus (For DPS during Kite) due to the fight mechanics. I also toss it up at the beginning of a fight or during phase transitions while moving.
I can't check her armory or the WWS at the moment, or I'd give you a better rundown. But one thing that popped out at me is low Bloodboil DPS. It is very easy to be threat capped on this fight if you're playing it safe as IFF spec. I can't see her spec, but how much into subtlety is she? Our main warrior tank is the best threat-gen player I've ever played with, and I could at any time pull aggro in this fight if I chose to. (And my first few runs through it I failed very hard at watching my threat properly, it sneaks up on you) You also need to be below the top two or three tanks, due to the fight mechanics. One thing that can really raise raid DPS on this fight is being given tranquil air instead of wrath of air if she's in a shaman group. If your tanks are average at threat gen, this fight is going to be VERY frustrating as a balance druid.
When I get home, if it hasn't really been looked at yet, I'll look at the Teron fight and try and find out why it's so low.
She's not right. I'm pulling better DPS than she is with much less gear. I was originally excited when I saw her get 1300 DPS on RoS, because I thought it must mean she had something blocking her on BB, but then I remembered Deaden and checked her average hits, which were much higher (because of Deaden), so she was still doing pretty poorly. She should be hitting 1300 DPS WITHOUT Deaden. If she's threat-capping at 837 DPS, you need a new tank, it's that simple. She has 10% -threat from talents and her cloak, there's no way she should be out-threating a competent tank in BT.
As for IS, it's a difference of 20-50 DPS, depending on gear. It's not a HUGE hit to cast it, and if it helps your tanks out then it's well worth the loss. Same with iFF, which is about a 3% hit, not 6%, and increases a lot of other people's DPS by 3%, including raising the threat cap. Personally I still cast it simply because I always have, and because I haven't asked our tanks what fights I should drop it from yet.
Well, on BB threat is a major issue for everyone because of the tank switching and knock backs. I know she is deathly afraid of being the one that pulls aggro so that might be an issue. I do remember her being high at one point but i can't remember if that was the first attempt where one of our tanks DC'd or not. I look mostly at Teron and RoS for dps potential. I think teron is perfect for it as long as the person you are evaluating doesn't get the ghost which she did not. And it was said earlier that the ghosts spirit lance is calculated with WWS and I really don't think it is considering i know for a fact that wogulf got it and it doesn't appear on his WWS. Persephonie did not get a ghost this week. RoS is pretty much a dps race and mana usually isn't an issue so it also makes a good fight to gauge where people are at. The numbers might be inflated a little bit but you can still see the pecking order. She is REALLY low for being one of our top 5-6 best geared dpsers.
And she is 2/5 subtlety with the subtlety enchant so she's at 10% reduced threat.
And she is 2/5 subtlety with the subtlety enchant so she's at 10% reduced threat.
Teron is definitely the best fight in BT for standstill if you do not get a ghost. Do you have any of her Winterchill and Kaz WWS's? Winterchill is an excellent performance test outside of losing a trinket slot, and Kaz is great if it's under about 3'30".
Probably specced exactly how I am then, I'll take a look first thing when I get home. My first guess is that her splits between starfires are going to be really high, and between moonfires and her next starfire even higher. That's the place where you really lose all of your DPS at.
Teron is definitely the best fight in BT for standstill if you do not get a ghost. Do you have any of her Winterchill and Kaz WWS's? Winterchill is an excellent performance test outside of losing a trinket slot, and Kaz is great if it's under about 3'30".
Probably specced exactly how I am then, I'll take a look first thing when I get home. My first guess is that her splits between starfires are going to be really high, and between moonfires and her next starfire even higher. That's the place where you really lose all of your DPS at.
I am intrigued...what do you mean by splits? like: (gorefiend)(1108 dps 96% dps time 98% presence)
______________ total % hits crit avg max resists
Starfire (Arcane) 191,956 77 % 32 33 % 6104 7108 1 2.0%
Moonfire (Arcane) 34 501 14 % 10 17 % 1559 1580
Insect Swarm (Nature) 21 876 9 %
I don't have parses from hyjal for the past couple weeks as we skipped hyjal for illidan progression. And i don't think she was in the raid for those bosses last time we did them.
I don't have parses from hyjal for the past couple weeks as we skipped hyjal for illidan progression. And i don't think she was in the raid for those bosses last time we did them.
The time between when each starfire hits the boss, then you compare it to her expected cast time. You can then find out how much time is basically being spent doing nothing (Even if it's unintentionally). There's always going to be some excess time due to latency, but you want to keep it basically exactly at or even below your latency if you can.
Well, on BB threat is a major issue for everyone because of the tank switching and knock backs. I know she is deathly afraid of being the one that pulls aggro so that might be an issue. I do remember her being high at one point but i can't remember if that was the first attempt where one of our tanks DC'd or not. I look mostly at Teron and RoS for dps potential. I think teron is perfect for it as long as the person you are evaluating doesn't get the ghost which she did not. And it was said earlier that the ghosts spirit lance is calculated with WWS and I really don't think it is considering i know for a fact that wogulf got it and it doesn't appear on his WWS. Persephonie did not get a ghost this week. RoS is pretty much a dps race and mana usually isn't an issue so it also makes a good fight to gauge where people are at. The numbers might be inflated a little bit but you can still see the pecking order. She is REALLY low for being one of our top 5-6 best geared dpsers.
And she is 2/5 subtlety with the subtlety enchant so she's at 10% reduced threat.
Okidoke, so BB's not a good sense of whether she's threat-capped and RoS is bad for checking how much casting time she's using because I'm not sure how long the separation between phases is, so I'll use Teron, which should be a decent benchmark for DPS unless she gets ghosted, which she didn't. Adding up her cast time, again ignoring haste, she's casting for 169.5 seconds out of 232, or 73% of the time, idling for 62.5s over 71 casts. She would need to have 880ms ping in order to write it off as latency (it's not). If she were using the casting improvements from 2.3 correctly to minimize her ping and doing everything possible to chain-cast (which is what she should be doing), she'd have closer to 340k damage / 1450 DPS, putting her up near the top 5. So, in short, she's not casting enough.
08/12/08, 3:22 PM
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