04/10/08, 3:05 PM #1141 • Adoriele Happy October 19th!     Adoriele Night Elf Druid   Dragonblight Alrighty, guys. I revisited some of my earlier work today to make sure I was correct about something, and I wasn't. Turns out Nature's Grace isn't always worth 315.2 Haste. It does end up scaling with Haste, and in a positive direction, I.E. The more haste you have, the more 'Haste' NG is worth, even though it's factored in before Haste. Turns out it's of the form $Hs_N_G= 315.2 + .2Hs_R$ Which makes sense, since without haste NG is a 20% cast time reduction.
 04/10/08, 4:26 PM #1142 thedopefishlives Don Flamenco   Delvalroy Dwarf Paladin   Baelgun An update on the trinket math. I finished re-implementing the spell calculation on Rawr.Moonkin according to the above equations worked out between me and Adoriele. I wanted to check with you guys because the results I got as far as trinket math were, well, rather surprising. The list I found is as follows: 1) Eye of Magtheridon, if not hit-capped 2) Skull of Gul'dan 3) Timbal's 4) Lightning Capacitor 5) Quagmirran's 6) Hex Shrunken Head 7) Battlemaster's 8) Icon I'm still not sure why Battlemaster's is ranked above Icon. Stamina is not taken into account at all. I'll worry about that later, but what do you guys think about the rest of it?
04/10/08, 5:28 PM   #1143
nakedduck
Von Kaiser

Night Elf Druid

Arthas
 Originally Posted by thedopefishlives An update on the trinket math. I finished re-implementing the spell calculation on Rawr.Moonkin according to the above equations worked out between me and Adoriele. I wanted to check with you guys because the results I got as far as trinket math were, well, rather surprising. The list I found is as follows: 1) Eye of Magtheridon, if not hit-capped 2) Skull of Gul'dan 3) Timbal's 4) Lightning Capacitor 5) Quagmirran's 6) Hex Shrunken Head 7) Battlemaster's 8) Icon I'm still not sure why Battlemaster's is ranked above Icon. Stamina is not taken into account at all. I'll worry about that later, but what do you guys think about the rest of it?
Any reason you haven't included the ashtonge trinket? On a tank and spank fight, it's worth about 86.7 spell damage

edit: this is based on 3 starfires in 8 seconds

if you can only squeeze 2 in 8 seconds, it's only worth 65.6 spell damage

@ Saraya: Might want to add nef's tear @ 63.2 still a good trinket ;p

Last edited by nakedduck : 04/10/08 at 5:37 PM.

04/10/08, 6:10 PM   #1144
erragal
Don Flamenco

Troll Priest

Wildhammer
 Originally Posted by thedopefishlives 1) Eye of Magtheridon, if not hit-capped 2) Skull of Gul'dan 3) Timbal's 4) Lightning Capacitor 5) Quagmirran's 6) Hex Shrunken Head 7) Battlemaster's 8) Icon I'm still not sure why Battlemaster's is ranked above Icon. Stamina is not taken into account at all. I'll worry about that later, but what do you guys think about the rest of it?
Was Darkmoon Card: Crusade not tested/used? Or just forgotten?

Just from cursory examination without having a strong mathematical basis, it seems that the click on effect trinkets are not being looked at properly. Hex Shrunken Head being lower than Quag's Eye/TLC doesn't appear correct. And the power of the click effect should scale with haste. When you reach enough haste rating to fit another Starfire during the buff, it becomes significantly more powerful. Can there really be a cut and dry, "Which trinket is best?" answer, other than: Skull of Gul'dan is number one by a significant margin. (Assuming you're going to be hit capped, which you want to be.)

Those were my observations.

Last edited by erragal : 04/10/08 at 6:24 PM. Reason: Grammar

04/10/08, 8:31 PM   #1145
shenando
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Dragonblight
 Originally Posted by thedopefishlives An update on the trinket math. I finished re-implementing the spell calculation on Rawr.Moonkin according to the above equations worked out between me and Adoriele. I wanted to check with you guys because the results I got as far as trinket math were, well, rather surprising. The list I found is as follows: 1) Eye of Magtheridon, if not hit-capped 2) Skull of Gul'dan 3) Timbal's 4) Lightning Capacitor 5) Quagmirran's 6) Hex Shrunken Head 7) Battlemaster's 8) Icon I'm still not sure why Battlemaster's is ranked above Icon. Stamina is not taken into account at all. I'll worry about that later, but what do you guys think about the rest of it?
Whats the percentage to spell cap we need to theoretically maximise the Eye of Mag proc?

Last edited by shenando : 04/10/08 at 8:39 PM.

 04/11/08, 12:31 AM #1146 Saraya Piston Honda   Saraya Night Elf Druid   Proudmoore Yeah, those rankings match up to the (never click) versions of the trinkets in the the list I provided. I'm also squinting at your Mag's Eye rating, since it should fall below Guldan's at around 95% or 96% hit. To theoretically maximize the Eye of Mag proc, you want 0 spell hit and no balance of power. But this really gimps your actual DPS since you're going to get resisted so much. I really doubt there's any point where dumping hit will help your overall DPS. I just added the Ashtongue trinket and Sextant to the list. The sextant has been nerfed apparently, and only procs on 20% of the crits, on a 45 second cooldown, which makes it kind of weak. And as surprising as it is, the ashtongue trinket does seem quite good. While it is true that it does not affect the spell you casted it on, the worst case scenario with 0 nature's grace procs would having it affect 2 starfires in the MF SFx4 rotation. This alone gives it uptime of 6 seconds out of 13.5, or a 66.666(repeating of course) equivalent damage rating.
04/11/08, 2:09 AM   #1147
thedopefishlives
Don Flamenco

Baelgun
 Originally Posted by Saraya Yeah, those rankings match up to the (never click) versions of the trinkets in the the list I provided. I'm also squinting at your Mag's Eye rating, since it should fall below Guldan's at around 95% or 96% hit. To theoretically maximize the Eye of Mag proc, you want 0 spell hit and no balance of power. But this really gimps your actual DPS since you're going to get resisted so much. I really doubt there's any point where dumping hit will help your overall DPS.
I agree. The trick is in converting all of these to flat spell damage/haste ratings to feed into the calculator. The on-click ones are the most puzzling, because they're rather simple: effect_magnitude * duration / cooldown. It doesn't get any easier than that, and yet they consistently come up underwhelming. As for the Eye of Magtheridon proc, that one boils down to an effective spell damage of:
$$$SP_0(M, H_r, S_c, t_e, t_c)= \frac{Mt_e}{\frac{t_c}{S_c(1 - H_r)}}$$$
where $M$ is the magnitude of the effect, 170; $t_e$ is the duration of the effect, 10 sec; $t_c$ is the time spent casting; $H_r$ is the hit rate in percent; $S_c$ is the count of spells cast during the casting time.

04/11/08, 3:06 AM   #1148
tehdarkknight
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Dalaran
 Originally Posted by Saraya I just added the Ashtongue trinket and Sextant to the list. The sextant has been nerfed apparently, and only procs on 20% of the crits, on a 45 second cooldown, which makes it kind of weak. And as surprising as it is, the ashtongue trinket does seem quite good. While it is true that it does not affect the spell you casted it on, the worst case scenario with 0 nature's grace procs would having it affect 2 starfires in the MF SFx4 rotation. This alone gives it uptime of 6 seconds out of 13.5, or a 66.666(repeating of course) equivalent damage rating.
With 240 spell haste and 0 Nature's Grace procs, the casting time of starfire would be reduced to 2.6 seconds, allowing a third Starfire during the proc with forgiving latency. With a standard T6 rotation (MF, SFx5+), it would have a 125%+ chance to proc per rotation, giving an uptime of 10s out of 15s, or a 100 equivalent damage rating, give or take.

I'm trying to determine the effects of spell haste in a rotation, and it's really wracking my brain. I've got the equation for Moonfire's damage worked out. However, I'm having issues with how spell haste contributes to the overall dps of Moonfire.

Example: No matter how much spell haste you have, as long as your other stats stay constant, Moonfire will always do the same amount of damage over 12 seconds (or 15 for 2t6). However, let's say you have 112 spell haste, approximately 7%. This is enough to reduce your global cooldown to 1.4 seconds. Now, instead of having 10.5 seconds to cast other spells (or 13.5 for 2t6) before Moonfire wears off, you now have 10.6 (or 13.6) seconds.

 04/11/08, 3:11 AM #1149 Saraya Piston Honda   Saraya Night Elf Druid   Proudmoore There's probably one of two things happening with the trinkets: 1) The "Use:" effects are getting left out somehow. Check the damage ratio between the hex head and icon. If it's a perfect 53:43, then it's simply not being added. 2) The DPS calculations are given in dpsx100 or something, so maybe on use effects aren't getting this multiplier for some reason? Just some guesses off the top of my head since I can't see the new source.
04/11/08, 4:57 AM   #1150
Benita
Don Flamenco

Tauren Druid

Dentarg (EU)
 Originally Posted by tehdarkknight With a standard T6 rotation (MF, SFx5+), it would have a 125%+ chance to proc per rotation, giving an uptime of 10s out of 15s, or a 100 equivalent damage rating, give or take.
Take. Alot.
10s out of 15s is not equivalent to 100 damage rating. I posted this like 3-4 times already over the last half year, but here we go again: If you don't have the buff up and your SF procs it, that SF doesn't receive the bonus damage of it aka worst possible timing of the procs. Unless they stealth changed this mechanic, it means it's alot less powerful than you guys want it to be.

 04/11/08, 5:03 AM #1151 Efejel Piston Honda   Efejel Tauren Druid   Dragonblight For what it's worth, I think it's important remember that Skull & Hex/Icon be stacked, increasing their relative worth. It's far harder to stack something like Quag's and/or Sextant/Mag's/Shiffar's. On fights were Bloodlust/Heroism uptime will be a significant portion of the fight (esp. lower end content), I really like Hex + Icon, keeping a spell dmg buff up for the full 40 sec is pretty incredible. Otherwise, I'm finding Hex + Timbal's to be the nicest combo I currently have access to. But, the SSO neck (Scryer), LC & Timbal's sounds like a fun combo I'll have to try if I can ever muster a serious roll on a Lightning Capacitor (it's so bad, I actually lost the last one to an affliction lock). Perhaps you'll forgive the hand-waviness of this post. Also, on an unrelated note: After ~3 months of running ZA with a group largely in badge/Kara/PvP gear, we finally made 4 timers... with both a Boomkin & Retadin in the raid, no less. Oh, fun fact: Timbal's can proc off Rip & Rake ticks. "Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut
04/11/08, 5:43 AM   #1152
Saraya
Piston Honda

Night Elf Druid

Proudmoore
 Originally Posted by Benita Take. Alot. 10s out of 15s is not equivalent to 100 damage rating. I posted this like 3-4 times already over the last half year, but here we go again: If you don't have the buff up and your SF procs it, that SF doesn't receive the bonus damage of it aka worst possible timing of the procs. Unless they stealth changed this mechanic, it means it's alot less powerful than you guys want it to be.
I was reluctant to model this because I did read what you posted earlier and knew I made a mistake. Here's how I arrived at my numbers. Using MF SFx4:

MF    SF    SF    SF    SF
X     150   150
150         X     150   150
150   150         X     150
150   150   150         X
X means that cast procs, the numbers afterwards mean the spell damage bonuses. Each line kind of loops around, so a proc on the 3rd cast will affect the 4th SF, then the MF, and the 1st SF. Kind of like that.

Let's ignore nature's grace for now. This is a 13.5 second rotation. Effective uptime for these means:
6 seconds
7.5 seconds
7.5 seconds
7.5 seconds
repectively. Or an average of 7.125 seconds uptime. For a 13.5 second rotation, this is 7.125/13.5 uptime, or about a 79.17 damage equivalent. If you calculate the dps increase and then do the +damage equivalent of it, it gives you roughly the same number.

I am missing one bad aspect of the proc - when you get back to back procs. You only gain 1 starfire's worth of effectiveness when this happens. So this will look like:

75% of the time: 6, 7.5, 7.5, 7.5 uptime
25% of the time: 3, 3.0, 3.0, 3.0 uptime
Or 6.09375 seconds uptime on average. This gives a +damage equivalence of 67.71 damage. The trinket is hard to calculate and isn't as good as it seems, but I think you may be downplaying its effectiveness a little.

However, feel free to shoot down my math, I'm incredibly rusty.

 04/11/08, 7:37 AM #1153 Benita Don Flamenco   Benita Tauren Druid   Dentarg (EU) That looks about right. I just wanted to counter it getting ranked just under skull. It was very bad for the t5 stage and still not that great for t6 without haste. It's decent now, but then again its ranked around icon, which isn't exactly hard to come by and way better for any other rotation, not to mention the ZA trinket or the Darkmoon Card (same mechanics that work against DCC work against SF spam).
 04/11/08, 10:16 AM #1154 Xianda Glass Joe   Xianda Tauren Druid   Outland (EU) I was wondering when u are going to add the new alch stones? cause the 40% extra from mana pots should help abit with my current mana issuse
 04/11/08, 2:13 PM #1155 • Adoriele Happy October 19th!     Adoriele Night Elf Druid   Dragonblight I'm stuck, and it's prickly. My first try at cracking Nature's Grace proved unfruitful. I was going to model it as a haste proc, but even then it wasn't wonderful when trying to compute $\Delta DPS$ using either of the stats that affect NG procs. Now I'm thinking about how else to do it, and I stumbled across something that works, but is not equivalent. I've been taking the cast time equation as (ignoring Haste for now) $3 - .5*C_0*Ht_0$ but I don't know if that's correct. Assuming we treat SF as two different spells, one with cast time of 3, one with cast time of 2.5, and all else equal, the form for DPS is $\frac{(B + k_D*D_R)(1 + C_0)(Ht_0)(1 + Hs_0)}{3}(1 - C_0*Ht_0) + \frac{(B + k_D*D_R)(1 + C_0)(Ht_0)(1 + Hs_0)}{2.5}(C_0*Ht_0)$ or, again ignoring haste, the cast time works out to $\frac{3}{1 + .2*C_0*Ht_0}$ I can't decide which is valid. I want it to be the form where we treat them as separate spells, not only because it makes the math easier, but because it also closely follows the Haste form for DPS (and it would probably be easy to generate an equivalence). But the original form also makes sense. The even worse part is that the bounds are the same, i.e. 100% hit and crit (I know 100% hit is impossible) give 2.5s cast time in both, and 0% crit gives 3s cast time in both. But the equations are slightly different, with the original being linear with respect to cast time, but of the form 1/x with respect to DPS, and the new form the exact opposite.