05/02/08, 2:14 AM #1351 Saraya Piston Honda   Saraya Night Elf Druid   Proudmoore We've already had the discussion for this trinket, I questioned nakedduck's calculations myself, and I was shown to be wrong. Reread his posts, his calculations are accurate, match up with kenpachi's results, and can be used to estimate the benefits for your own equipment. You do not subtract the time spent casting from the beginning of the proc, you only subtract the wasted time at the end. The example with the 2.5 second trinket was just an attempt to show you not to subtract the time spent casting from the beginning, but I guess it wasn't clear enough. If we take an example of 4 starfires, assuming the starfires take 2.5 seconds to cast: (Each character is 0.5 seconds, and the X shows where the proc takes effect) ```----S----S----S----S XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX``` 4 starfires is a total of 10 seconds. Out of these 4 starfires, 3 of them benefit. So the proc has an effective uptime for 7.5 seconds. So the effective proc was up 75% of the time. If we subtract the wasted uptime(1 X) from 8 seconds, we also get 7.5 seconds. Again, the effective proc is up 75% of the time. The method you suggest would be 8 seconds, - 0.5 from the end, and then another -2.5 from the beginning. This gives us an effective uptime of 5 seconds. This is an effective uptime of 50%. But you can clearly see that 3/4 starfires gain benefit. This is 75% uptime. Time spent casting a starfire that gains benefit is not wasted, and thus you do not need to subtract the first cast time off the beginning of the starfire. Time spent casting a starfire that does not gain benefit is wasted though, so you definitely should subtract any time wasted from the end.
 05/02/08, 4:31 AM #1352 spi Von Kaiser   Spi Night Elf Druid   Akama You're right. I got caught up on that 1.5s trinket a little.
 05/04/08, 1:14 PM #1353 Tybchamp Glass Joe   Magoichi Tauren Druid   Malygos Minimum boomkin stats? What are the boomkin minimum stats, what should be my spirit and mana regeneration? Things of that nature.
05/04/08, 4:02 PM   #1354
spi
Von Kaiser

Night Elf Druid

Akama
 Originally Posted by Tybchamp What are the boomkin minimum stats, what should be my spirit and mana regeneration? Things of that nature.
Refer to announcement up top "teach me how to play."

 05/04/08, 9:25 PM #1355 Morpheen Glass Joe   Morphene Tauren Druid   Greymane Spi, are you trying for a specific haste threshold, or just stacking it? I need to change the quick lionseye in my helm and gloves to reckless pyrestone, to get 1197 +dmg, 101 hit, 16% crit and 319 haste while still maintaining my t6 4 piece (wtb vanq dropping in sunwell, gd prot). I figure 319 puts me at starfires under 2.5 seconds, and with drums Im at 399 haste =P.
 05/06/08, 5:54 AM #1356 olorin_75 Glass Joe   Bëorn Night Elf Druid   Kul Tiras (EU) Awesome spreadsheet. I have a question tho. How come that according to the "dps rating" crit increases dps equally much for only wrath and only starfire?? Nature's Grace will surely increase starfire dps more than wrath dps??
05/06/08, 2:09 PM   #1357
Happy October 19th!

Night Elf Druid

Dragonblight
Alrighty, I'm back from vacation with a gift: I've finished up the calcs for both Hit and Crit, just need to format them for the boards and the article. I'll post them here first so I can get confirmation that I didn't completely hose the math on this one, and then I'll see about getting the article published once I'm sure things are right. After that, Wrath should be pretty easy to model, and IS, MF might take a little time. Then I'll move on to rotations, mana, and non-static buffs (Trinket procs, 4T5, etc).

I'm attaching the latest version of my spreadsheet, which has been drastically updated, including the new Crit calculations. It has sections which aren't implemented yet in preparation for the future, like spells which are not Starfire, and rotations. There's a new page for Talents and Buffs, and a math page for interesting info. In general, if something is greyed-out, it's not implemented yet. Make sure to read the comments on entering Hit and Crit ratings.
Attached Files
 Stat equivalence.xls (38.5 KB, 276 views)

05/06/08, 3:30 PM   #1358
spi
Von Kaiser

Night Elf Druid

Akama
 Originally Posted by Morpheen Spi, are you trying for a specific haste threshold, or just stacking it? I need to change the quick lionseye in my helm and gloves to reckless pyrestone, to get 1197 +dmg, 101 hit, 16% crit and 319 haste while still maintaining my t6 4 piece (wtb vanq dropping in sunwell, gd prot). I figure 319 puts me at starfires under 2.5 seconds, and with drums Im at 399 haste =P.
I was using ef's spreadsheet and I was stacking it because i dont clip my dots, so i dont really care to hit threshold. However, my itemization is obviously incorrect now that I saw ado's math.

 05/06/08, 3:46 PM #1359 Drbass Glass Joe   Drbass Tauren Druid   Cho'gall Adoriele - I looked at your spreadsheet but I guess it just isn't dumbed down enough for me. I don't understand what the numbers mean under the pure rare gems column to the Hybrid Epic Gems Column. I want to double check that I'm understanding everything correctly. After 1077 spell damage, you want to stack haste in a 1:1 ratio with damage. Since I have around 1265 spell damage when in my pve gear(armory has pvp gear on it now), doesn't that mean that having around 185 some haste rating is pretty close to the sweet spot? I've seen someone say don't use +10 haste gems till 1394 spell damage but at that level shouldn't you already have 317 haste? Is there really a benifit of using orange gems over yellow gems when you are already way above 1077?
05/06/08, 4:10 PM   #1360
Happy October 19th!

Night Elf Druid

Dragonblight
 Originally Posted by Drbass Adoriele - I looked at your spreadsheet but I guess it just isn't dumbed down enough for me. I don't understand what the numbers mean under the pure rare gems column to the Hybrid Epic Gems Column. I want to double check that I'm understanding everything correctly. After 1077 spell damage, you want to stack haste in a 1:1 ratio with damage. Since I have around 1265 spell damage when in my pve gear(armory has pvp gear on it now), doesn't that mean that having around 185 some haste rating is pretty close to the sweet spot? I've seen someone say don't use +10 haste gems till 1394 spell damage but at that level shouldn't you already have 317 haste? Is there really a benifit of using orange gems over yellow gems when you are already way above 1077?
Yeah, I'm actually working on doing yet another complete overhaul on it. I've realized that it's a lot of.. oddly-presented info that could be made a lot more intuitive. Don't worry, it's coming.

As to your questions, Yes, after 1077 you would want Haste in a 1:1 ratio with Damage. The reason why the number for a [Quick Lionseye] is 1392 is because when you choose to use it, you're not making a 1:1 ratio. You're choosing 10 Haste instead of 12 Spell Damage, and for that choice to be valid, you need more spell damage.

I've made mention in the past that stats have diminishing returns, and it's not exactly the case, it's just a convenient way of thinking about it. Given a specific point for 3 stats, the contribution of adding +1 to the fourth (out of Damage, Hit, Crit, and Haste) is always the same. 'Diminishing returns' comes in because, when you add to that fourth stat, the value of the other three go up. Eventually, one of them will become more valuable.

To bring it back to the Lionseye/Spinel issue, 1 haste becomes more valuable than 1 damage at 1077 damage. It becomes more valuable than 1.2 damage at 1392 damage, assuming crit and hit are constant, and you have no haste. For each point of haste you add, the first number goes up by 1, the second by 1.2.

Again, this should be a lot more intuitive once the next version of the sheet hits.

05/06/08, 6:03 PM   #1361
Drbass
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Cho'gall
 Originally Posted by Adoriele Yeah, I'm actually working on doing yet another complete overhaul on it. I've realized that it's a lot of.. oddly-presented info that could be made a lot more intuitive. Don't worry, it's coming. As to your questions, Yes, after 1077 you would want Haste in a 1:1 ratio with Damage. The reason why the number for a [Quick Lionseye] is 1392 is because when you choose to use it, you're not making a 1:1 ratio. You're choosing 10 Haste instead of 12 Spell Damage, and for that choice to be valid, you need more spell damage. I've made mention in the past that stats have diminishing returns, and it's not exactly the case, it's just a convenient way of thinking about it. Given a specific point for 3 stats, the contribution of adding +1 to the fourth (out of Damage, Hit, Crit, and Haste) is always the same. 'Diminishing returns' comes in because, when you add to that fourth stat, the value of the other three go up. Eventually, one of them will become more valuable. To bring it back to the Lionseye/Spinel issue, 1 haste becomes more valuable than 1 damage at 1077 damage. It becomes more valuable than 1.2 damage at 1392 damage, assuming crit and hit are constant, and you have no haste. For each point of haste you add, the first number goes up by 1, the second by 1.2. Again, this should be a lot more intuitive once the next version of the sheet hits.
I guess I just get confused between the two because I really don't know which rule I should be following when you guys say both are correct. The add haste in a 1:1 ratio after 1077 rule is great. I love it because it's so easy for me to do. I'm obviously not a math guy in the slightest so the simpler the better and this fits.

Like I mentioned before I'm at roughly 1265 spell damage and 182 haste. So I'm really close to that 1:1 mark however to do this I used some +10 Haste gems. So that seems to be right, but I'm no where near 1392 spell damage which is where you said I should be to start using +10 haste gems.

You guys kinda make it sound like if you could add 1 gem slot to your gear Spinels are a better choice because of the 1.2:1 ratio of gems. But if your upgrading a piece of gear aren't you more than likely adding at least a few spell damage also. If a item added more spell damage to your set wouldn't it be better to add a haste gem so as to keep your set closer to the 1:1 Spell Damage to haste ratio?

Sorry I'm kinda dense when it comes to these things.

 05/06/08, 6:06 PM #1362 Soultrigger Von Kaiser   Soultarius Tauren Druid   Warsong Can anyone help me calculate the spell coefficient on moonfire?? I am writting a tutorial about moonkins, and I would like to write down how that is calculated. :x The thing is, I can understand how the calculations on the wowwiki is made, but the one at the think tank on ej I can´t. And the thing is, the results posted on EJ and wowwiki don´t match. If anyone can run the math for me, I would appreciate.
05/06/08, 6:51 PM   #1363
Happy October 19th!

Night Elf Druid

Dragonblight
 Originally Posted by Drbass I guess I just get confused between the two because I really don't know which rule I should be following when you guys say both are correct. The add haste in a 1:1 ratio after 1077 rule is great. I love it because it's so easy for me to do. I'm obviously not a math guy in the slightest so the simpler the better and this fits. Like I mentioned before I'm at roughly 1265 spell damage and 182 haste. So I'm really close to that 1:1 mark however to do this I used some +10 Haste gems. So that seems to be right, but I'm no where near 1392 spell damage which is where you said I should be to start using +10 haste gems. You guys kinda make it sound like if you could add 1 gem slot to your gear Spinels are a better choice because of the 1.2:1 ratio of gems. But if your upgrading a piece of gear aren't you more than likely adding at least a few spell damage also. If a item added more spell damage to your set wouldn't it be better to add a haste gem so as to keep your set closer to the 1:1 Spell Damage to haste ratio? Sorry I'm kinda dense when it comes to these things.
Don't worry about it. It's damn confusing sometimes to me, too. Really, the 1077 number is a theory thing. If we had the ability to design our gear as we wished, we'd want to always have our spell haste equal our spell damage minus 1077. But we don't. We get close with gems, but then Blizzard throws a curveball and makes Spinels and Rubies have more stat points than Dawnstones and Lionseyes. So we have to deal with the trade. And as it turns out, the trade is only better once you get to 1392 Spell damage. At that point, you'd want to keep an equal number of Spinels and Lionseyes. Before that point, the extra stat points allocated to damage on the red gems outweigh the deficit caused by straying from 1:1.

What's 1077 useful for, then? Well, it's a good rule of thumb for when to start gearing toward Haste. Not socketing - we've shown that 1392 is better for that. But it's a good point to start seeking out actual gear with haste on it at that point. I'll try and pick up some examples later tonight.

05/06/08, 6:59 PM   #1364
spi
Von Kaiser

Night Elf Druid

Akama
 Originally Posted by Soultrigger Can anyone help me calculate the spell coefficient on moonfire?? I am writting a tutorial about moonkins, and I would like to write down how that is calculated. :x The thing is, I can understand how the calculations on the wowwiki is made, but the one at the think tank on ej I can´t. And the thing is, the results posted on EJ and wowwiki don´t match. If anyone can run the math for me, I would appreciate.
I've seen the exact calculation you asked for in the earlier pages of this thread.

05/07/08, 4:24 AM   #1365
Efejel
Piston Honda

Tauren Druid

Dragonblight
Here's the best I've seen it: WoW Forums -> YABi2.4R (Yet Another Balance in 2.4 Rant)

 A suggestion for your MF coeff. in your spreadsheet (v0.80b). The wowwiki formula for a hybrid spell, Spell damage and healing - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft, says to compute the untalented coef this way: A = coef for instant cast direct damage = 1.5/3.5 B = coef for 12s DoT = 12/15 Coef for MF direct = A * A / (A + B) = .14950 Coef for MF dot = B * B / (A + B) = .52093 It appears to me that bonuses for Improved Moonfire and Moonfury are added together, not multiplied together (Untalented tooltip MF DoT is 600, fully talented is 720, not 726). The implication is that good formulas for the coefficients are Scale = (1 + Moonfury*.02 + Improved_Moonfire*.05) Direct_Coef = .1495 * Scale Dot_Coef = .52093 * Scale At 2/2 5/5, my numbers are .1794 and .6251. Your spreadsheet is using .1795 and .6254 so they pretty much agree.

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