05/07/08, 11:01 AM   #1366
olorin_75
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

Kul Tiras (EU)
 Originally Posted by olorin_75 Awesome spreadsheet. I have a question tho. How come that according to the "dps rating" crit increases dps equally much for only wrath and only starfire?? Nature's Grace will surely increase starfire dps more than wrath dps??
Im obviously too noobish to even post here, but could someone at least comment on this and point me in the right direction pls?

If my question was unclear here it is again: using the spreadsheet, according to the dps rating, 1 crit rating will increase my wrath dps with 0.76 and my starfire dps with 0.77. How is this possible? Afai can see 1% crits increase wrath dps with 1%, while increasing starfire dps by 1.165% because of nature's grace talent, ie a 16.5% bigger increase on starfire compared to wrath. Now, 0.77/0.76=1.013, ie 1.3% bigger increase on starfire compared to wrath when adding some crit. Help me pls!

05/07/08, 1:13 PM   #1367
Happy October 19th!

Night Elf Druid

Dragonblight
 Originally Posted by olorin_75 Im obviously too noobish to even post here, but could someone at least comment on this and point me in the right direction pls? If my question was unclear here it is again: using the spreadsheet, according to the dps rating, 1 crit rating will increase my wrath dps with 0.76 and my starfire dps with 0.77. How is this possible? Afai can see 1% crits increase wrath dps with 1%, while increasing starfire dps by 1.165% because of nature's grace talent, ie a 16.5% bigger increase on starfire compared to wrath. Now, 0.77/0.76=1.013, ie 1.3% bigger increase on starfire compared to wrath when adding some crit. Help me pls!
Well, for one, it's referring to 'effective spell damage', not %increase in DPS, i.e. with your stats 1 crit is worth .76 spell damage for wrath, .77 spell damage for Starfire, which actually look pretty high for any non-theoretical case, though I don't have any trinkets modeled yet. The highest I can get Crit for SF is .714 when you have no crit [literally 0%] already and are hit-capped. For a general hit-capped, 15% out-of-form spreadsheet Crit rate, I get closer to .585. For two, 1% crit does not increase DPS by 1% except when you don't already have any crit. For example, when you have 99% crit, the last 1% is only worth (200 - 199)/199 = .503% DPS.

 Grr, I'm bonkers sometimes. If I push spell damage up high I can get the 'effective spell damage' numbers for crit rating. I was more thinking along the lines of 'useful past' numbers, which don't change with spell damage. Given the above, the useful-past number for Crit is 1627, i.e. you need 1627 spell damage before your first point of crit gives the same DPS as another point of spell damage. In the less theoretical case, the number is closer to 2000.

[Edit the second] Finally finished updating the spreadsheet again, should be a lot more intuitive. Still shows effective spell damage and the useful-past number for single points of rating, but now also includes change in DPS by adding each rating, as well as by adding a specific gem, i.e. if you select Dawnstone it will show you the change in DPS you gain by adding [Gleaming Dawnstone], [Great Dawnstone], [Quick Dawnstone], and, for comparison, [Runed Living Ruby]. It will also show the effective number of Red gems (Ruby or Spinel, depending on which gem you select) your selected gem is worth for each rating. This is similar to the effective Spell Damage comparison, but in the more manageable gem-sized chunks. It also adds in the effective spell damage calcs for Wrath, gem calcs will be added fairly soon as they're significantly easier than for Starfire.

[edit the third] Okay, actually attaching the sheet would probably be useful.
Attached Files
 Stat equivalence.xls (46.5 KB, 230 views)

Last edited by Adoriele : 05/07/08 at 2:45 PM.

05/07/08, 3:42 PM   #1368
Drbass
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Cho'gall
 Originally Posted by Adoriele Don't worry about it. It's damn confusing sometimes to me, too. Really, the 1077 number is a theory thing. If we had the ability to design our gear as we wished, we'd want to always have our spell haste equal our spell damage minus 1077. But we don't. We get close with gems, but then Blizzard throws a curveball and makes Spinels and Rubies have more stat points than Dawnstones and Lionseyes. So we have to deal with the trade. And as it turns out, the trade is only better once you get to 1392 Spell damage. At that point, you'd want to keep an equal number of Spinels and Lionseyes. Before that point, the extra stat points allocated to damage on the red gems outweigh the deficit caused by straying from 1:1. What's 1077 useful for, then? Well, it's a good rule of thumb for when to start gearing toward Haste. Not socketing - we've shown that 1392 is better for that. But it's a good point to start seeking out actual gear with haste on it at that point. I'll try and pick up some examples later tonight.
Ok so I really should be following the 1392 rule and not gemming towards haste. My last thing, does this count raid buffs? If I get past 1400 with raid buffs, can I put in a few haste gems instead of spinels?

05/07/08, 3:55 PM   #1369
Happy October 19th!

Night Elf Druid

Dragonblight
 Originally Posted by Drbass Ok so I really should be following the 1392 rule and not gemming towards haste. My last thing, does this count raid buffs? If I get past 1400 with raid buffs, can I put in a few haste gems instead of spinels?
Yes. The sheet doesn't care how you get your stats, just that you get them. Unless I end up doing a full 'this is my gear, do all the work from here' sheet where you add in buffs manually and it calculates your relevant stats for you (which sounds strangely like another spreadsheet we already have...), there's no reason to worry about whether you're getting things from buffs or from gear, except in the case of spell-specific stats (Hello 4T6!), in which case I'll add in the option to include the buff for usefulness. Similarly for things like Totem of Wrath or Inspiring Presence, where you could use the rating calculator to generate your effective rating, but it's just a lot more hassle than I want people to go through.

 05/07/08, 5:51 PM #1370 Traek Von Kaiser   Traeklol Orc Death Knight   Mannoroth Just to clarify, it does care if you already get +damage from gems, correct? As in if a spinel is giving you +12 damage, you then need 1404 +damage to begin gemming for haste? And from what I read earlier, I got the impression you also add (yourHasteRating * 1.2)?
05/07/08, 6:02 PM   #1371
Happy October 19th!

Night Elf Druid

Dragonblight
 Originally Posted by Traek Just to clarify, it does care if you already get +damage from gems, correct? As in if a spinel is giving you +12 damage, you then need 1404 +damage to begin gemming for haste? And from what I read earlier, I got the impression you also add (yourHasteRating * 1.2)?
It cares, kind of. What it does is takes what you have already and pretends to 'add a gem' to it. So if you're looking at your total gear, and you have a socket left un-gemmed, at 1392 Spell Damage putting a [Runed Crimson Spinel] in that socket is the same as putting a [Quick Lionseye] there. If, on the other hand, you're looking at your total gear and all your sockets are full, then yes, you would need 1404 spell damage to be able to remove a Spinel and put a Lionseye in its place.

And yes, it's + 1.2*HasteRating. Note that for hit, for example, this is NOT the case. It just works out well with Haste. And it only applies to Starfire spam. But really, since the sheet now just tells you the relative value of each gem, it's kind of a moot point.

 05/07/08, 9:54 PM #1372 mader Glass Joe   kenpachi Night Elf Druid   Stormreaver a little follow-up to using double 4-piece. our attempts this week were pretty miserable but i had 3 attempts ~2k dps (not using imp FF). Wow Web Stats chose that attempt for the example because it lasted until enrage. kill attempt i got 3 burns (including one right after my third slash) so i had to heal myself for a while, dps was ~1750ish. overall attempts this week were pretty bad for me as i avged 1 burn per attempt (9 total) and we were short handed due to finals and such. will try to do better next week :\
 05/08/08, 12:24 AM #1373 Vanee Glass Joe   Vanee Human Paladin   Bloodfeather Thank you, Efejel, for this wonderful spreadsheet! I have read all the replys before page 47, and will finish the reading tomorrow, haha...I got this spreadsheet from the version 0.80a, and haven't got much time to study the earlier versions. So, there is some questions. 1. I notice you didn't put the VIP buff Heroism into the calculate. Is any special reason for the ignorer? Divide the whole fight duration time into 2 parts, one is Heroism status, and the dps should be multiplied by 1.3, and the other part is non-Heroism status, of which the duration time is Fight_Dur-40*CountOfHeroism, with the normal dps. 2. Yet i didn't find improved Judgement of Cursade in the "Expected Debuffs" table. With a tankdin or retdin in raid, this 3% cri is very helpful. 3. Could you bother to add Item ID to the item list, this will make it much more convenient to translate the spreadsheet to other language. Thank you again.
05/08/08, 5:09 AM   #1374
Efejel
Piston Honda

Tauren Druid

Dragonblight
 Originally Posted by Vanee 1. I notice you didn't put the VIP buff Heroism into the calculate. Is any special reason for the ignorer? Divide the whole fight duration time into 2 parts, one is Heroism status, and the dps should be multiplied by 1.3, and the other part is non-Heroism status, of which the duration time is Fight_Dur-40*CountOfHeroism, with the normal dps.
This is a pretty simple way to deal with it, except for DOT rotations & the like will all changed under Heroism. I can account for that to an extent with the pre-ordained rotations, but not so much the custom rotations. Also, mana consumption might be a little bit tricky to determine. There hasn't been a huge demand for a Heroism/Bloodlust feature (or if there has, I've been able to ignore it pretty well), so I've been directing my efforts elsewhere!

 2. Yet i didn't find improved Judgement of Cursade in the "Expected Debuffs" table. With a tankdin or retdin in raid, this 3% cri is very helpful.
This is quite true... I've been meaning to add it, but haven't gotten around to it yet--mostly, I haven't taken the time to figure out where I can add it without messing up all the current pretty formatting on the buffs/debuffs page.

 3. Could you bother to add Item ID to the item list, this will make it much more convenient to translate the spreadsheet to other language.
I can scarcely contemplate doing this. The item list is already a bear to maintain, and I'm afraid I don't know a simple way to find the item IDs. If anyone else is interested in tackling this, let me know. I haven't started on a new version and don't intend to be pushing a revision too soon (the haste errors need to be corrected, but otherwise it's pretty serviceable as-is, for the moment), so you can just grab the latest version from the link and get started on those item IDs...

"Electronic communities build nothing. You wind up with nothing. We are dancing animals. How beautiful it is to get up and go out and do something." - Kurt Vonnegut

05/08/08, 5:49 AM   #1375
havoklimit
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Blackrock
 Originally Posted by mader a little follow-up to using double 4-piece. our attempts this week were pretty miserable but i had 3 attempts ~2k dps (not using imp FF). Wow Web Stats chose that attempt for the example because it lasted until enrage. kill attempt i got 3 burns (including one right after my third slash) so i had to heal myself for a while, dps was ~1750ish. overall attempts this week were pretty bad for me as i avged 1 burn per attempt (9 total) and we were short handed due to finals and such. will try to do better next week :\
Sick man... 1974 dps... if only I could manage that.

05/08/08, 2:19 PM   #1376
ariyana
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

 Originally Posted by Adoriele It cares, kind of. What it does is takes what you have already and pretends to 'add a gem' to it. So if you're looking at your total gear, and you have a socket left un-gemmed, at 1392 Spell Damage putting a [Runed Crimson Spinel] in that socket is the same as putting a [Quick Lionseye] there. If, on the other hand, you're looking at your total gear and all your sockets are full, then yes, you would need 1404 spell damage to be able to remove a Spinel and put a Lionseye in its place. And yes, it's + 1.2*HasteRating. Note that for hit, for example, this is NOT the case. It just works out well with Haste. And it only applies to Starfire spam. But really, since the sheet now just tells you the relative value of each gem, it's kind of a moot point.
Forgive the noob question, I'm trying to follow the thread...so in your spreadsheet if I'm attempting to fully rebalance my gems you put the un-gemmed values of your gear in "current ratings" slots are start experimenting up from there, one gem at a time? How do we pick between epic and rare?

05/08/08, 3:39 PM   #1377
Happy October 19th!

Night Elf Druid

Dragonblight
 Originally Posted by ariyana Forgive the noob question, I'm trying to follow the thread...so in your spreadsheet if I'm attempting to fully rebalance my gems you put the un-gemmed values of your gear in "current ratings" slots are start experimenting up from there, one gem at a time? How do we pick between epic and rare?
Aye, that's what you'd want to do. To pick which gem you're comparing, use the gem selector. It will always compare to Runed gem of the same quality, so if you pick Noble Topaz it will compare to [Runed Living Ruby], and if you pick Pyrestone it will compare to [Runed Crimson Spinel]. If you need to compare across quality levels, select a gem of the quality level of the red gem you want to compare to, write down the $\Delta DPS$ given for Spell Damage in the gem category, then switch to the gem you actually want to compare, and divide its $\Delta DPS$ by the number you wrote down.

 05/08/08, 8:18 PM #1378 Roech Glass Joe   Roech Night Elf Druid   Blade's Edge Mac compatible would anyone happen to know a mac compatible version of this software?
05/09/08, 2:56 AM   #1379
Benita
Don Flamenco

Tauren Druid

Dentarg (EU)
 Originally Posted by Efejel I can scarcely contemplate doing this. The item list is already a bear to maintain, and I'm afraid I don't know a simple way to find the item IDs. If anyone else is interested in tackling this, let me know. I haven't started on a new version and don't intend to be pushing a revision too soon (the haste errors need to be corrected, but otherwise it's pretty serviceable as-is, for the moment), so you can just grab the latest version from the link and get started on those item IDs...
Not that im volunteering, i wouldn't have the time for it, but the item IDs can be easily looked up on wowhead. The Wowhead item url always has the id in it, e.g. htp://www.wowhead.com/?item=19852 is ID 19852.

 05/09/08, 6:06 AM #1380 Celdhyrean Von Kaiser   Celdhyrean Night Elf Druid   Archimonde (EU) The problem is not finding them but doing a script to insert them in the item name lists automatically. Doing it by hand would be...