[Balance] Simple Questions + WoL Feedback - Page 7

ac90b671 · 01/23/12, 12:42 PM

I'm sitting at 2921 haste and in RAWR set to DS(10)H the ave boss and the raid buffs I have (about everything but FM), my stat values are:

Mastery: 4.05
Haste: 3.7
Crit: 3.48

Does this seem right; can mastery ever beat haste?

My druid is here:
Eielayia @ Lightbringer - Game - World of Warcraft

Slippykins · 01/24/12, 1:08 AM

Originally Posted by ac90b671

I'm sitting at 2921 haste and in RAWR set to DS(10)H the ave boss and the raid buffs I have (about everything but FM), my stat values are:

Mastery: 4.05
Haste: 3.7
Crit: 3.48

Does this seem right; can mastery ever beat haste?

My druid is here:
Eielayia @ Lightbringer - Game - World of Warcraft

To answer truthfully, mastery will end up beating haste as we reach much, much higher values of haste - however, we'll never reach that point in this part of the expansion. RAWR reports some quirky numbers sometimes, and it requires a bit of tweaking to make it give the right numbers. Crit shouldn't be nearly as close to haste/mastery as is quoted, and haste should definitely be higher than mastery, especially with the gear you have. I'd say stick to haste > mastery >> crit in your priorities, and if you have a query on what piece is better, use WrathCalcs.

thedopefishlives · 01/24/12, 9:23 AM

Originally Posted by Slippykins

To answer truthfully, mastery will end up beating haste as we reach much, much higher values of haste - however, we'll never reach that point in this part of the expansion. RAWR reports some quirky numbers sometimes, and it requires a bit of tweaking to make it give the right numbers. Crit shouldn't be nearly as close to haste/mastery as is quoted, and haste should definitely be higher than mastery, especially with the gear you have. I'd say stick to haste > mastery >> crit in your priorities, and if you have a query on what piece is better, use WrathCalcs.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on both points. Yes, I know, I'm the author of Rawr and thus I'm biased, but I'm working on improving it and I will freely admit that it's not perfect and that haste, in particular, is a recurring issue with it. With that out of the way, two things:

1) Even SimulationCraft shows that haste sometimes has a negative value. I have scaling plots from SimCraft that show dips in the graph of haste versus DPS at all gear levels. The problem is that Rawr, for some reason, has a rather larger negative "dip" right around the common haste point that most people are reaching in current gear. I'm still working on this.

2) Mastery is not always necessarily _much_ better than Crit. I just ran a SimulationCraft run where the two were valued at less than 0.4 DPS/point from each other. I will grant you the point that haste should still be considerably above both of the other two stats, but to say that crit and mastery can't be relatively closer to each other is absurd. Especially if you are still using the VPLC, crit is not a bad stat, mastery is just better.

Slippykins · 01/25/12, 8:38 PM

Originally Posted by thedopefishlives

I'm going to have to disagree with you on both points. Yes, I know, I'm the author of Rawr and thus I'm biased, but I'm working on improving it and I will freely admit that it's not perfect and that haste, in particular, is a recurring issue with it. With that out of the way, two things:

1) Even SimulationCraft shows that haste sometimes has a negative value. I have scaling plots from SimCraft that show dips in the graph of haste versus DPS at all gear levels. The problem is that Rawr, for some reason, has a rather larger negative "dip" right around the common haste point that most people are reaching in current gear. I'm still working on this.

2) Mastery is not always necessarily _much_ better than Crit. I just ran a SimulationCraft run where the two were valued at less than 0.4 DPS/point from each other. I will grant you the point that haste should still be considerably above both of the other two stats, but to say that crit and mastery can't be relatively closer to each other is absurd. Especially if you are still using the VPLC, crit is not a bad stat, mastery is just better.

Hmm, well from what I've seen and heard, I've been lead to believe that mastery cannot surpass haste no matter what from this tier of gear. They'll approach the marginal values of each other as we stockpile more and more haste, but because we can't get high enough we wont see them equal, let alone mastery pull ahead.

That being said, I can't substantiate my claims with any strong maths, other than WrathCalcs and manually finding the marginal DPS values of each stat through DPS - (DPS - 1 of stat) = DPS of 1 stat. From having a BiS set-up in WrathCalcs and doing so, what I've found is haste still pulls ahead of mastery, which still pulls ahead of crit. I'm not too crash-hot on Rawr or SimCraft (though I have used SimCraft a bit more than Rawr), and my basis of discussions generally rely solely on WrathCalcs.

However, when I replied to ac90b671 (creative name), I was just trying to point out the values have to be skewed if they're showing haste as such a poor stat. I can't see mastery being that much better, and neither can I see crit catching up to haste so easily. If just the haste value is being reported incorrectly, what's that to say about the other values as well?

Again, I'm not trying to denounce Rawr or SimCraft, I'm just saying I rely on WrathCalcs almost always when I want to figure out my DPS or gear changes, and that's just because I'm more comfortable with the customisability of it. I don't mean to offend. <:

Hobnaker · 01/26/12, 4:52 AM

Is it worth refreshing DoTs before leaving an Eclipse if you know they won't last until your next Eclipse begins?

thedopefishlives · 01/26/12, 8:49 AM

Originally Posted by Slippykins

However, when I replied to ac90b671 (creative name), I was just trying to point out the values have to be skewed if they're showing haste as such a poor stat. I can't see mastery being that much better, and neither can I see crit catching up to haste so easily. If just the haste value is being reported incorrectly, what's that to say about the other values as well?

That's absolutely a good point, and I'll give you a good explanation. Haste is the only variable that is driven by my hand-written moonkin rotation simulator. Haste, along with active set bonuses (specifically 4T12 or 4T13) and the presence/absence of Glyph of Starfire, is used to derive a set of cast distributions that basically break down the percentages of each cast in the standard rotation. Crit and mastery are purely damage-dealing stats and are integrated into Rawr's calculations in a completely different way from haste. If I was going to trust any of the three, I'd put more stock into my valuations of crit and mastery and would be much more suspicious of haste, since the simulator is incredibly complex and it's much more reasonable to assume that I got something wrong there.

EDIT: To the poster above me: I'm pretty sure the "normal" way of refreshing DoT's is to refresh IS/Sunfire before leaving Solar Eclipse. I don't know if you should refresh Moonfire before leaving Lunar Eclipse, but I'm pretty sure it's a DPS loss to refresh Insect Swarm any time outside of Solar. (Aside from casting it when you hit Lunar in order to proc Nature's Grace, that is.)

Panthros · 01/26/12, 8:54 AM

Originally Posted by Hobnaker

Is it worth refreshing DoTs before leaving an Eclipse if you know they won't last until your next Eclipse begins?

I would like to do a similar question. In this situation, is it worth refreshing dots before leaving Eclipse AND before dropping Nature's Grace, even though each dot could have more than 4 or 5 seconds up at this moment?

alucard_pe · 02/01/12, 12:26 PM

Hi all,

4.3.2 is on. The tier replace priority is still the same?

4T12 heroic => 2T12 heroic + 2T13 heroic => 4T13 heroic

or can we go like this:

4T12 heroic => 2T13 normal + 2T13 heroic => 4T13 heroic

Slippykins · 02/02/12, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by alucard_pe

Hi all,

4.3.2 is on. The tier replace priority is still the same?

4T12 heroic => 2T12 heroic + 2T13 heroic => 4T13 heroic

or can we go like this:

4T12 heroic => 2T13 normal + 2T13 heroic => 4T13 heroic

From what I've tested in WrathCalcs, you can even go:

4T12 heroic -> 4T13 normal -> 4T13 heroic

The first transition would be a significant-enough upgrade to be warranted.

kaevne · 02/04/12, 9:08 PM

H Yor'sahj question:
I'm a resto druid who goes balance for H Yor'sahj so that we can 5-heal it. I'm wondering what tricks you guys are using to stave off the dreaded OOM->zero DPS situation?

I blow Innervate for the first mana void, and for the rest I will try to save a Solar Eclipse transition for right as the Mana Void finishes draining. However, this usually only results in ~20k mana and is hard to time. Sometimes we will lose a void early due to it wandering into the add pile, which results in ooming the next blue. On a few attempts I even used a mana pot, which is probably non-ideal.

The 20k mana from a transition generally doesn't last through a black phase if I'm solar cleaving, would Lunar Shower actually be worthwhile for Yor'sahj?

My rotation for black adds is Detonate on CD, typhoon on CD, DoT cleave, and keep dots on Blue Void and Yor'sahj.

Our full-time balance druid was also having a hard time. I happened to die during a purple phase so my active time was low as we got our BRs worked out.

Yor'sahj kill: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Armory: Kaevne @ Firetree - Game - World of Warcraft

Please note that I am reforged for resto right now. I use ReforgeLite to reforge quickly back and forth.

My final question is, would 4pc LFR T13 be worthwhile over my current gear? I am wearing 4/5 T12 Normal, with 1 piece of heroic gloves.

In terms of trinkets, I'm guessing the goal is WoU of course, along with IoCM for non-AoE fights and CotC for AoE fights.

For weapons, I am using Rath for AoE fights, though I'm guessing H Lightning Rod is better in general. We also have quite a few good casters, so I'm wondering if the Haste Staff off of Deathwing is a better choice? Is this correct?

My boom theory and gear are pisspoor so forgive me for any dumb questions.

epicecky · 02/05/12, 2:25 AM

Hey guys, I've recently changed to Moonkin MS from Resto for T13. I've been running into an issue on Madness of Deathwing 10N, with the 20% haste buff knocking my Starfall CD out of line with Lunar Eclipse. I find myself waiting a cumulative ~30-40 seconds over the fight casting against Eclipse to wait for Starfall.
Since my last kill, I've changed from Glyph of Wrath to Glyph of Starsurge to try and counteract this, but also picked up the Insignia of the Corrupted Mind from Yor'sahj so I think this will counteract my glyphing efforts.
My haste has been between 2900-3100 on each of my kills, depending on which upgrades I had acquired at the time.

a) Would it be better for me to just cast Starfall off CD regardless of Eclipse status?
b) If not, am I better to continue casting against Eclipse to line it up, or perhaps forge out some haste rating from gear to try and alleviate the issue?

Latest kill for Madness 10N
Previous kill for Madness 10N
Earliest kill for Madness 10N

Thanks in advance

Apolenka · 02/23/12, 7:05 PM

Hello guys,

I'm looking for advice. I'm suffering from low DMG compared to my current gear, dunno what I'm doing wrong.

Can you please check, here are some details about me.

Armoy: Apocaliptika @ Drak'thul - Game Guide - World of Warcraft
WoL's: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Logs from last week - Ultraxion HC
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Fyolee · 02/26/12, 3:34 PM

Hi Guys,
i'm looking for an advice too. I feel like the DMG output by me is too low. Most of the time i got DI-Buff by a Warlock.
In my opinion im especcially weak when i have to move often or when i cant cycle from eclipse to eclipse (e.g. Ultraxion Hour of Twilight, Fade of Light or any other Kind of "interrupt").

All of the other Raidmembers are happy if they can face and fight Ultraxion (nHC/HC) because they say its "Patchwerk reloaded".
In addition i cant reach the DPS Wrathcalc says, if i fight versus a Heroic Dummy. Im nearly 2000 DPS below.

In Singletargetfights, i do the basic rotation: starfire until solar, apply dots, wrath until lunar, apply dots and casting starfire until solar and so on. I use Treants if they are ready and i try to use Starfall only in Lunar. Berserking everytime its ready and i reached a Eclipse to apply the Dots buffed by Berserking.

Should i do better if i apply Dots again before solar/lunar end and natures grasp is about to end? Or doas anyone have better advices for me?

Armory: Fyolee @ Blackrock-EU
WoL: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Thanks!

Fyolee · 02/26/12, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by Apolenka

I'm looking for advice. I'm suffering from low DMG compared to my current gear, dunno what I'm doing wrong.

At Ultraxion i do better if i apply dots at solar/lunar and refreshing them before eclipse ends and natures grasp is about to expire.
I feel like you got a lot of time to do that when you got a Fading of Light Debuff or the Hour of Twilight is casted. Just try to never let your Dots expire and always apply them while buffed with eclipse and natures grasp. If you cycle from eclipse to eclipse at around 10 Solar/Lunar Energy left your natures grasp should have nearly 2 seconds left. This should be the moment you refresh your dots.
If you got the Debuff or Hour is casted you can apply your dots at another state of Eclipse Energy.

Greets Fyolee

Phaidon · 02/26/12, 3:46 PM

@Fyolee:
Your DoT-uptime seems to be about 80%, which is low. Try refreshing them twice during solar, at the beginning and at the end.

@Apoliptica:
There's one long try where you're at about 28k, and it doesn't seem like you used any Volcanic Potions (which you should, but I might just have missed it in the Logs) or benefitted from full 40 seconds Bloodlust (same). With your gear, no DI and no Legendary, you should not expect to go much higher unless you execute your rotation perfectly, and from what I can gather from the Logs - and especially from the fact the your DPS varies a lot - you might just need some more getting used to Ultrax. Try watching your trinket proc closely too, sometimes you want to cast your DoTs a little earlier or later accordingly.