[Feral] Simple Questions + WoL Feedback - Page 5

• Melthu · 08/12/11, 12:25 PM

It does and it doesn't. Technically as you gain dodge rating you need progressively more and more rating to increase your dodge chance by 1%. However, in terms of actual damage reduction/avoidance dodge rating actually increases in value as your dodge chance rises.

Hinalover · 08/19/11, 4:00 AM

Testing on Windwalk enchant?

I'm going through Rawr's coding to double check a few things and I'm having great difficulties nailing down Windwalk's enchant proc rate. Based on what I've read, it doesn't have a ICD which indicates a PPM basis. Has the feral community had much theorycrafting done on this enchant beyond what the Pally Tanking community has come up with? Currently the pally tanking community has said that the proc rate is a 1 PPM. However, there has been reports of a 20 - 40% uptime. This would indicate anywhere between a 1.2 PPM and a 2.4 PPM, depending on the length of the fight, movement, etc. SimulationCraft currently has the proc set to a 45 second ICD and a 15% chance to proc which is something that did come up early in the beta testing but I don't think has been updated since. However, if it were closer to a 45 second ICD that was originally estimated back in the beta, that would indicate that the proc would be around a 1.3 PPM. Yet if we were to average out the proc uptime (30% uptime), that would mean we would have to set the proc rate at a 1.8 PPM. Finally, Astrylian was the one in the Rawr dev who set the Windwalk enchant at a 1.4 PPM based on his own testing.

So my question is has there been further testing on this enchant? Would it be best to leave the enchant at a 1.4 PPM setting or does it need to be changed?

gatestar1980 · 08/24/11, 6:28 AM

i know in wolk i could tank in pvp gear because of the stamina and stack agiligy is why i did it but i am wondering in cata is it the same or has it changed.... and know just post know because od beening a noob i have looked everywhere and i can not find any posts saying my way for tanking is back lots of people saying no because resilince is just for pvp. but i have hear rumors that to much pvp gear in cata can make u under crit cap for tanking

baneat · 08/24/11, 6:32 AM

Given the recent threat changes, how viable is a set-up of nearly full PvP gear for bear tanking in Firelands Normal? The main concern over PvP gear was the heavy loss of secondary threat stats, but given that the threat is buffed so much could it be considered a non-issue? The gear would be PvP in every slot, gemmed, enchanted and reforged properly for bear tanking, minus the trinkets which would be PvE e.g Alchemist Stone + Tia's Grace. 4 pieces of Ruthless + Ruthless weapon, 371 vicious in the other slots.

Is there a rough estimate on the effective value of running PvP gear like this in relation to PvE gear? Provided one can maintain aggro it seems to be viable given the stat priorities for bear tanking (Agility, Stamina, Dodge all increase with higher item levels).

Note the post above me was made at the same time(While I was typing my own); I am asking essentially the same question.

Also note that I am fully aware it has been done in moderation in the past, my question is regarding going the full way with PvP items in nearly every slot.

kalbear · 08/24/11, 2:42 PM

In general, PvP gear loses out to PvE gear of a similar tier. So if you have 378-level gear, 384-level pvp gear is roughly the same. This isn't always the case - it depends somewhat on the itemization, so pieces with mastery can be significantly better than pve pieces with haste and crit.

From an article I'm writing on it, here's an example of the tradeoff:

Right away one nice thing about the head slot is that it has mastery - the best PvE secondary stat that can come on gear. Only Tsanga's helm has it. The 384 piece and the two firelands pieces are very, very close in value; in both cases you're trading 23 agi, 35 stam and 41 armor for 200+ hit or expertise.

It really depends on what you're trading off as far as pvp pieces goes as to whether it's better or not. The biggest loss will likely be in hit and expertise, which while not hugely important as far as threat and mitigation are useful in establishing quick aggro, especially on adds. If you're talking about going full pvp vs. troll heroic gear? That's probably fine. If you're talking about replacing some of the JP gains? Also likely fine. If you're replacing firelands gear or VP gear with 384-level pvp gear, that's probably not advised.

baneat · 08/26/11, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

In general, PvP gear loses out to PvE gear of a similar tier. So if you have 378-level gear, 384-level pvp gear is roughly the same. This isn't always the case - it depends somewhat on the itemization, so pieces with mastery can be significantly better than pve pieces with haste and crit.

From an article I'm writing on it, here's an example of the tradeoff:

It really depends on what you're trading off as far as pvp pieces goes as to whether it's better or not. The biggest loss will likely be in hit and expertise, which while not hugely important as far as threat and mitigation are useful in establishing quick aggro, especially on adds. If you're talking about going full pvp vs. troll heroic gear? That's probably fine. If you're talking about replacing some of the JP gains? Also likely fine. If you're replacing firelands gear or VP gear with 384-level pvp gear, that's probably not advised.

None of the pieces to be replaced are of Firelands quality. I shall use 378 bracers, (UHW/AlchTrinket/Tia's Grace/Decent Stam trinket I can find) depending on the fight.

Originally Posted by kalbear

In general, PvP gear loses out to PvE gear of a similar tier. So if you have 378-level gear, 384-level pvp gear is roughly the same.

Although this statement can be true, I feel it's very confusing to make. Your first statement shows PvP Gear (Similar tier, so 384 and 378 are regarded as "Similar tier", yes?) to be generally inferior to the PvE gear. However, afterwards you say it is "Roughly the same". So, is it roughly the same but always a little under, or am I reading into your message in the wrong way?

Also: I think I should stack agility and gem stamina if my healthpool is too small. I'd shift the stats through gems and a trinket. What would the recommended healthpool be for general tanking in my circumstance?

• Melthu · 08/26/11, 4:09 PM

PvP and PvE gear follow the same formula for stamina, so ilvl 371 PvP gear will have more than enough stamina to tank normal modes without any additional stamina focus like gems or trinkets.

kalbear · 08/26/11, 8:50 PM

Although this statement can be true, I feel it's very confusing to make. Your first statement shows PvP Gear (Similar tier, so 384 and 378 are regarded as "Similar tier", yes?) to be generally inferior to the PvE gear. However, afterwards you say it is "Roughly the same". So, is it roughly the same but always a little under, or am I reading into your message in the wrong way?

You're reading it the wrong way; 384 gear is half a tier better than 378. So pve gear that is the same ilvl (say, a weapon) loses to pve gear unless one is horribly itemized and the other is really outstandingly itemized for some reason.

384 gear and 378 gear are very, very close to each other in value. You trade 23 agi, 35 stam and some mastery for 200+ expertise and a secondary stat. That's pretty close. 23 agi and 35 stam are better for survival than 200 expertise but 200 expertise is a lot better for consistent and immediate threat and slightly better for savage defense. That's the sort of trade off you'll make.

Also note that all the pvp gear has a 2-piece +70 agility bonus, making the tradeoff even more lucrative if you have it.

I'd personally recommend going with head and shoulder PvP pieces until obtaining pve ones. While you'll eventually want the 4pT12 for bear tanking, having something in the meantime that is strong will help.

Ssateneth · 08/26/11, 10:58 PM

Apologies if this was answered earlier, but it's my understanding that "if it doesn't hit, then it couldn't have been a crit" meaning ... well, say you have 50% tooltip crit (Let ignore crit suppression and glancing blows for the sake of making it simple) as well as a total chance to miss of 30%, due to some combo my attacks missing or being parried/dodges. Does this mean 50% of all my attempted attacks, regardless of landing or not, will be crits? Or will only the attacks that I land be eligible to crit? (70% of attacks lands, 50% of those attacks will crit, effective crit rate 35%).

Reason I ask is I'm led to believe hit and expertise are purely threat stats and won't directly affect SD procs, though it may have an indirect positive effect from stacking it in that something such as my pulverize fails to land many times, giving a sliiiiiightly lower crit chance over the course of the fight due to lower pulverize uptime, and gaining hit/expertise makes the pulverize buff more reliable to keep up.

Is this how it works out?

• Melthu · 08/26/11, 11:52 PM

It depends on the attack type. Auto-attacks use a 1-roll system, so as long as your overall chance to land is higher than your crit chance you get the full benefit of your crit. So in your example you'd have a 50% chance to crit.

Yellow attacks, which are anything other than auto-attacks, use a 2-roll system. For those you can only crit on attacks that successfully land, so an effective 35% crit chance in your example. You use a lot more yellow attacks than auto-attacks so expertise and hit (less so for hit) do increase your SD proc rate.

Noetical · 08/28/11, 8:16 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

You're reading it the wrong way; 384 gear is half a tier better than 378. So pve gear that is the same ilvl (say, a weapon) loses to pve gear unless one is horribly itemized and the other is really outstandingly itemized for some reason.

384 gear and 378 gear are very, very close to each other in value. You trade 23 agi, 35 stam and some mastery for 200+ expertise and a secondary stat. That's pretty close. 23 agi and 35 stam are better for survival than 200 expertise but 200 expertise is a lot better for consistent and immediate threat and slightly better for savage defense. That's the sort of trade off you'll make.

Also note that all the pvp gear has a 2-piece +70 agility bonus, making the tradeoff even more lucrative if you have it.

I'd personally recommend going with head and shoulder PvP pieces until obtaining pve ones. While you'll eventually want the 4pT12 for bear tanking, having something in the meantime that is strong will help.

I think a lot of people are missing his point that he is actually raiding tier 11, not 12, so whilst 384 may be on par with >378, 371s are going to blow blues out the water, especially as he won't just be replacing the odd piece (he'll get the set bonus). With threat problems non-existent my only worry would be mastery.

baneat · 08/30/11, 8:29 AM

Originally Posted by Noetical

I think a lot of people are missing his point that he is actually raiding tier 11, not 12, so whilst 384 may be on par with >378, 371s are going to blow blues out the water, especially as he won't just be replacing the odd piece (he'll get the set bonus). With threat problems non-existent my only worry would be mastery.

Originally Posted by baneat

Given the recent threat changes, how viable is a set-up of nearly full PvP gear for bear tanking in Firelands Normal?

Sorry, I think you've misread me.

Tilora · 09/05/11, 1:05 PM

I've read through the boards and found nothing on this, and this thread seems like the best place to put my question.

I'm quite disappointed at my performance on Majordomo normal fights. I usually start off with 23-24k on the first scorpion, then move down to 17-18k on the catphase. I've tried with reforging all to haste, thinking I'd get enough regen to successfully do regular dps on the cats, with no luck. I've also tried reforging all to mastery (and truth be told, only attempted this last night, we're we chose to go 10mans to get loot instead of repeated wipes), thinking I'd get more out of my rakes than I currently was. The problem seems to me the adds die too quickly, so no real rotation, and my rakes only tick once or maybe twice before the add dies.

I've checked world of logs on this fight, and ferals with about the same ilvl as me end up with anything from 24k to 28k.

My opener goes as follows:

Charge
Rake (we have a feral tank and arms warriors)
Shredx2
TF
Ravage (unless 5cp ->Rip)

Shred to get cp, keep rake, rip and SR (be it 1 or 5cp) up, and use Berserk whenever applicable unless a TW/Hero is close. I stand behind on scorpion 1 and 3, and run in front whenever Majordomo uses Flame Scythe to help with raiddmg.

So my question to you: what am I doing wrong in said fight, or what can I improve?

World of Logs for our last 25man try.
My profile on Battle.net

polymorphist · 09/06/11, 11:42 AM

I am relatively new to this class and wow in general.
I have a few questions which I request input from you pro players.

a)Between balance and feral which spec has the potential for high dps in PVE ?
Please consider all the other parameters such as gear,skill etc to be equal.
Personally I love feral but I keep on hearing balance in trade chat when I asked the same question.

b) How much dps is expected from feral or balance for 5 man heroics ?

c) Is it possible for me to tank 5 man cata heroics (non-troll instances) with my current gear ?
I will be getting the ring from earthen ring soon replacing my PVP ring.

Polymorphist @ Nesingwary - Game - World of Warcraft

This is my armory link.

Thanks in advance.
Poly

Daler · 09/06/11, 2:06 PM

Originally Posted by Tilora

I stand behind on scorpion 1 and 3, and run in front whenever Majordomo uses Flame Scythe to help with raiddmg.

Without even looking at your logs, I can tell you that this can be improved.

There's a "sweet spot" when he's in scorpion form where you can shred and still help split the Flame Scythe damage, that's right around where the the scorpion's claw connects to the body. His armpit, if you will.

If you stand there, you can DPS 100% of the time without moving, still use Shred, AND help split the damage.