Elitist Jerks [Resto] Simple Questions + WoL Feedback

 06/01/11, 12:08 PM #61 demoniclizard Glass Joe   Cleotaurus Tauren Druid   Blackrock I am wondering about the comparison of trinkets, namely fall of mortality vs alchemist stone. A guy on mmo-champ claims that FoM provides "vastly superior regen" to the alchemist stone, but I just don't see it that way. Assumptions: -we can convert the 194 haste to spirit (so they are easily comparable) -using a conc pot on every fight (he claims this is impossible in HMs, I claim otherwise as i've done 10/13 using pots in every fight without an issue) -6 minute fight Using the numbers provided on the trinket list from the resto druid guide: [Fall of Mortality] - Cho'gall -Assumed 75 second Internal Cooldown -Variance of 10 seconds for calculations -1926 Spirit for 15 seconds, every 85 seconds = 255 mp5 -321 Intellect adds 24 mp5 from Replenishment, along with 4815 mana This puts it at a total of 255 + 24 = 279 mp5. [Vibrant Alchemist Stone] -Assumed 351 Intellect adds 26 mp5 from Replenishment, along with 5265 mana -Highest passive Int on a 359 Trinket, along with a large chunk of Haste for reaching breakpoints -40% more mana from Potions is approximately ---3700-4100 extra mana from a Mythical Mana Potion; once per 6 minute fight, this is roughly 55 mp5 ---8800 extra mana from a Concentration Potion; once per 6 minute fight, this is roughly 122 mp5 Assuming we can reforge the equivalent of 194 haste to spirit, which provides roughly 145 mp3 this gives us: 145 + 122 + 26 = 293 mp5 I simply don't see where this "vastly superior" regen is from FoM. The guy claims EJ as his source, but treecalcs puts the time to OOM nearly identical when you convert the haste on stone to spirit. Is there something about the trinkets I am missing? I realize that in a fight longer than 6 minutes, or if you are unable to use a conc pot, FoM comes out ahead - however I have yet to see a fight where I cannot use the pots (I always use them just in case). I find the alchemist stone superior due to the higher intellect gain and the fact that any haste over the cap can just be reforged into spirit anyway. I find the proc to be wasted since it goes off right at the start of a fight anyway when it is not needed.
 06/01/11, 1:53 PM #62 Greentouch Piston Honda   Greentouch Tauren Druid   Kel'Thuzad What makes the alchemist 2nd BIS (counting heroic content!) with only Shard of woe coming out ahead, is the PASSIVE haste. Would Heroic FoM give a bit more regen? Probably. So? 2005 breakpoint is nearly a 10% throughput increase, counting both the extra tic on WG, and Efflo, and the 6th tic of RJ a fourth of the time, and of course the increased haste for the cast/gcd's. The trinket lets you do it without sacrificing as much INT and secondary stats. Many non-alchemists are sacrificing up to 200 INT to reach 2005. So if you just lumped the INT you don't need to sacrifice into your trinket comparison, obviously the Stone demolish's even Heroic FoM. All anyone ever needs to know about being a Resto Druid in PVE, complete and up-to-date guide at: Resto Raiding Guide
 06/01/11, 3:02 PM #63 demoniclizard Glass Joe   Cleotaurus Tauren Druid   Blackrock Yeah when considering the ability to reach 2005 haste the alch trinket is superior. But my question is attempting to compare them on the basis of their regen values - without considering the utility of having the haste available. Assuming that a player can get to 2005 haste without using the alchemy trinket and without sacrificing int - does the FoM (non-heroic) provide a substantial mana regen increase versus using the alchemy trinket, with 194 haste reforged to spirit, and using a conc pot? Because, using the numbers I posted above, the alchemist trinket with the above made assumptions is actually superior to FoM. Unless there is some part that I am missing or my numbers are inaccurate? And I recognize the requirement of using conc pots to make use of the regen, as well as the relative advantage of FoM as the fight goes on past 6 minutes.
 06/01/11, 4:22 PM #64 Daler Bald Bull     Zombiegeebus Undead Priest   Mal'Ganis 1) [Potion of Concentration] is an average of 20k mana. Each tick is between 1800 and 2200, so you're only gaining 8k from the alchemist stone benefit. Over a 6 minute fight, that's closer to 111 mp5. 2) If you're examining them in a vacuum, then no, the alch trinket isn't more regen. You can only consider the full 194 haste as equivalent to spirit if you take into account that you can reforge additional haste rating found elsewhere on your gear to spirit (which may not be true). It's not entirely accurate to say you can reforge the full 194 haste to spirit without considering the passive haste as a pro for the trinket. If you're really looking for just a trinket-to-trinket comparison, the best you could do would be to consider the 77 spirit you can get from reforging the haste on the trinket to spirit. In which case, the FoM does provide more regen than the Alchemist Stone, hands down. However, that's completely obfuscating the relative value of the two trinkets, and should just reinforce the fact that examining trinkets (or any gear slot for that matter) in a vacuum is a pretty pointless exercise. But for kicks, using your 1.33 spirit:mp5 ratio: Alch stone--30 int (2 mp5) + 77 spi (58 mp5) + 8k mana (111 mp5) = 171 mp5 vs. FoM--255 mp5 FoM is the clear "winner" here. But as Greentouch pointed out, raw regen is not why the Alchemist Stone is one of the best trinkets currently available.
 06/01/11, 4:34 PM #65 demoniclizard Glass Joe   Cleotaurus Tauren Druid   Blackrock So basically my comparison is faulty based on the fact that one of my assumptions - that someone can convert all of the 194 extra haste to spirit on other pieces - is false.
06/01/11, 5:36 PM   #66
Daler
Bald Bull

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by demoniclizard So basically my comparison is faulty based on the fact that one of my assumptions - that someone can convert all of the 194 extra haste to spirit on other pieces - is false.
Yes and no. It's possible that someone might choose to reforge spirit to haste on spirit/crit or spirit/mastery items. I would say that that's certainly not the optimal reforging strategy, and in practice, it makes no sense to assume that someone has done so.

The bigger point, in my opinion, is that comparing gear slot-by-slot is a poor evaluation strategy.

Last edited by Daler : 06/02/11 at 10:54 AM. Reason: Spelling

 06/08/11, 1:07 PM #67 Sasazuka Von Kaiser   Akuzasas Tauren Druid   Frostwolf Looking for some advice on healing on 10-man Sinestra. Below is our setup and what I'm currently doing. - I do have 5% haste and Dark Intent though I'm wondering if I should be stacking mastery due to Essence of the Red and ignore haste breakpoints for P1 and P2 (I don't have mastery usage from the addon) - 2 heal (paladin and druid) and tanks are DK and paladin - We Bloodlust at the beginning with potions before engaging - If SP gets the first Wrack he can usually delay it to 30seconds during P1 and dispel is delayed again if SP gets it for P3 though not as much as P1 Yesterday, we got to 19% which is currently our best attempt so far. Here's link to yesterday's log. Originally I was DPS with shaman as heals but we switched roles. It feels that I'm not able to maximize output in comparison to other druids on WoL. We have near 100 wipes I believe. Things I'm keeping in mind: - Spread RJ around prior to Flame Breath - LB the person with Wrack (if things aren't too hectic - for the first few Wrack targets) - I usually save Barkskin when I get Wrack - Doesn't feel like I need to use ToL or Tranquility for P1 or P2 but I think I can pop ToL for P1 to keep things stable - In P3, I'm primarily trying to focus on RJ, WG, HT, and Swiftmend with occasional RG. Should I also try go keep LB going? Should I lean towards RJ/WG or HT? Our DK tank is getting hit pretty hard (2-3x 60k) when entering P3 and throughout P3. The other healer says he usually pops his cooldown when entering P3 - I believe I will start using ToL entering P3. I've read about people where only 1 person dispels but that's in a 25-man setup. I'm not sure how viable/strong that would be in 10-man. Thanks!
 06/08/11, 11:54 PM #68 Greentouch Piston Honda   Greentouch Tauren Druid   Kel'Thuzad How is wrack different in 10 man then 25? I would think it would work the same. I have a post on how I handle it in 25 here http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t110354-...1/#post1939439 Basically I would maintain a max hps rotation all of p1 and p3. You can burn all your mana, pot, and innervate before p3 because you'll have infinite mana, and you shouldn't oom after the buff falls off because it shouldn't last more then a minute after that and you'll have innervate again. Max HPS rotation: LBx3 always up Use OoC procs asap, I generally use them for Regrowth, excepting during the buff portion use HT or you're wasting haste. WG & SM strictly off cd (holding SM a cpl seconds to use it after a breath if its coming up or ppl are topped off) Fill in with as many RJ's as possible, in 10m it should be pretty easy to hit only people with WG or LB on them. Some spot heals may be needed of course, especially in 10 man, especially when we have the buff don't be afraid to chain out HT's like nobody's business if you need some burst healing. Other then that, the only fine tuning is things like cooldown usage. You can use a tranq in p1 (p2 if you are getting any add fails) and then for the first flame breath in p3, but the most important thing here, is to make sure everyone who has a good raid cd will have it up for when the buff falls off. Prot pallys and warriors raid cd, holy pallys AM, disc Barrier, all priests divine hymn, all druids tranquility. They ALL need to be up for after the buff falls off, because that's the hard part. So use them before only if you know they'll be up when you need them. Edit: Also, the hardest part is when the super buff falls off. So don't ignore haste breakpoints. If you get DI, then go to 1573+ and reforge the rest for mastery. Also, moving LB stacks is a waste of much needed gcd's. Leave it on the tank, a RJ and some spot heals will be plenty on wrack targets. Last edited by Greentouch : 06/09/11 at 12:01 AM. All anyone ever needs to know about being a Resto Druid in PVE, complete and up-to-date guide at: Resto Raiding Guide
 06/09/11, 2:34 PM #69 Sasazuka Von Kaiser   Akuzasas Tauren Druid   Frostwolf I don't know about 25-man but in 10-man there's only a maximum of 8 Wracks. The very first Wrack of a phase (including P3 ) can go on the off-tank but subsequent Wracks from dispels won't. I skimmed your guide on dispelling but I seemed to have skipped over the important part of staggering the dispel which I believe is something we'll try tonight. I couldn't understand how a druid could in 1 GCD dispel 4 people and simply assumed the other healers just healed it up but staggering the dispels definitely makes it possible. Thanks! Switching LB is something I do for P1 and seems to help for the Wrack targets and it's possible because there's not much to heal during P1.
 06/16/11, 10:03 PM #70 Ildera Glass Joe     Ildera Night Elf Druid   Chamber of Aspects (EU) Hullo, I'm a little confused. My normal healing style uses HT on OOC proc, and regrowth to control NG procs during times of higher damage. I've been told by my new guild that 3/3 LS and 3/3 NB is better for tank healing, with regrowth on OOC. I specced this way and tested out it tonight (although I carried on using HT for OOC as I was nervous about using regrowth completely forgot) - according to the logs, LS accounted for around only 2-3% of my tank healing in absolute best case scenario (healing Chim DS soak tank, 0% overheal on LS), which doesn't seem a great use of 4-5 points. World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis Am I missing something? Up till this week, I was always a raid healer, now I'm being asked to do a mix. I've never previously found LS very useful and removed my points in it with joy when 4.1 hit, but I'm aware that I may not be DoingItRight (tm) Also, with this healing style, how do I make up for not being able to control NG? I feel like NG helps my healing a *lot* when it's most needed - both for raid and tank heals, and can't really work out how I would quantify this, or find another mechanic to replace it if I use regrowth more frequently? Thanks in advance for any advice and or sample logs to learn from I've been scratching my head over this for a few days now
 06/17/11, 5:11 PM #71 Greentouch Piston Honda   Greentouch Tauren Druid   Kel'Thuzad None of the optional talents will have a profound effect on healing throughput. 2% from LS is more then you'd probably get from BotG for instance. Perseverance can save your life, and if it might, then its your best choice. Nature's Bounty is probably only worth 2-3% throughput, but its usefulness goes beyond the meter healing for me. Without it, our emergency flash heal, isn't. It's total crap. Like you might as well not have Regrowth, and its an important part of the toolbox. Plus of course after they make crits heal for 100% extra NB will be twice as important. I use it for most OoC procs, and keep LB stacks rolling with it in ToL, as well as an emergency spot heal. The Nourish buff is really nice tank healing in my opinion, its not much of a throughput buff, but certainly a quality of life bonus. As to controlling NG, you can still do it, you just need to track the internal cd. You can use it all you want for 45 seconds after you pop NG, and then hold it for for the next raid damage. I use forteexorcist, which tracks icd's like NG as well as power torrent and trinkets etc. All anyone ever needs to know about being a Resto Druid in PVE, complete and up-to-date guide at: Resto Raiding Guide
06/17/11, 5:26 PM   #72
Ildera
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

<DoD>
Chamber of Aspects (EU)
 Originally Posted by Greentouch As to controlling NG, you can still do it, you just need to track the internal cd. You can use it all you want for 45 seconds after you pop NG, and then hold it for for the next raid damage. I use forteexorcist, which tracks icd's like NG as well as power torrent and trinkets etc.
This is what I already do though. If I'm still holding Regrowth out of ToL to control OOC, then how can I cast it for every OOC?

I still don't quite understand what the throughput difference is between exchanging Regrowth and HT? Instead of getting a large heal for free, and refreshing my lifebloom, I get a small heal, a living seed, refresh of lifebloom, but I still have to spend more mana to carry on topping the tank up?

06/18/11, 1:09 AM   #73
Greentouch
Piston Honda

Tauren Druid

 Originally Posted by Ildera If I'm still holding Regrowth out of ToL to control OOC, then how can I cast it for every OOC?
You aren't. There aren't hard and fast rules, you don't only use HT or only use RG.

If the tank needs a 30k heal you still use HT. If you need a faster heal you use RG. For 40 seconds after you proc NG you can use RG all you want. As the icd is coming up you can decide if you want NG or if u want to hold it a few seconds, and just use HT's until you need NG.

The throughput difference is you can cast both a RG and a RJ in the same time as one HT.

All anyone ever needs to know about being a Resto Druid in PVE, complete and up-to-date guide at: Resto Raiding Guide

 06/22/11, 6:30 AM #74 demoniclizard Glass Joe   Cleotaurus Tauren Druid   Blackrock I was wondering if there are any special spec/gearing methods that would be favorable to the sinestra mechanics. My guild finally made it here in the last week and we are really gunning to get it down before the patch. This is for 10 man - Are there any special gearing/spec strategies that would work better? I am specifically referring to the p3 buff, though we have only made it to p3 a few times so far and haven't figure out that transition quite yet. Would it be worth reforging into full mastery? Or specing out of all mana talents? Perhaps I might be overthinking it and its the lasting power of healers once the buff runs out that makes or breaks a raid.
 06/23/11, 4:28 PM #75 Boomie Glass Joe   Boomie Night Elf Druid   Fizzcrank Resto mastery 4.2 (It's not about the meters) Will Mastery under Harmony be lower healing than Critical Strike on high movement bosses? I'm a raiding resto druid on Fizcrank. I got a very good reputation in my runs for keeping people alive. My goal is not to top healing meters at all costs but to keep tanks/dps who make the occasional mistake from dying and wiping/pushing the enrage timer. My healing strat is LB x3 tank (rejuv/HT/Nourish) as necessary. Raid I WG and add rejuv only if damage was heavy or more is suspect to come in. I rejuv+HT DPS who are near death. My swiftmend I do NOT use on CD. I use it as a emergency CD. I'll use on on a dps who is taking burst damage, tank to buffer a boss high damage phase, or mdps if several are clustered and need healing. The problem I see with Harmony is it looks good on tank and spank encounters. However more and more bosses require constant movement. You get the 10% mastery bonus regardless of investment. So I compare benefit of mastery at 1.25% to critical strike at 1.0%+(Living Seed increase) per point. Often we need our mastery the most during high movement phases. So it seems if less than 3/4th of our heals are covered by mastery during high movement it would be a throughput loss to critical strike? Again I am not talking tank and spank but movement encounters where you are forced to move at specific times but raid/party continues to take constant damage that you must with. I am also worried with rejuv requiring so many gcds from us that Harmony will pressure many to burn Swiftmend on CD with lots of movement to keep Harmony active rather than save it to rescue/buffer someone or cluster damage. Jindo in ZG would be a good example. Can other Restos with ptr experience tell if Harmony will still give enough throughput to justify not switching to Critical Strike for high movement fights?

 Elitist Jerks [Resto] Simple Questions + WoL Feedback