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Old 03/08/11, 8:45 PM   #946
Playered
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Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Originally Posted by Erdluf View Post
PW:B has the added advantage (to that healing priest's slot), that even if you only need it once per fight, you can't get anything comparable from a non-healer.
Yes you can with Divine Guardian.

Originally Posted by Vontre
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Old 03/08/11, 10:55 PM   #947
Erdluf
Great Tiger
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Echo Isles
Thats true. I think most guilds/fights allow more flexibility in DPS slots than in tanking slots. Still, DG is often going to be an alternative to PW:B.

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Old 03/09/11, 2:35 PM   #948
Kluian
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Tauren Druid
 
Korgath
The problem with tranq is there are very few fights where there is enough heavy raid damage to warrant using it more than once. Typically there will be that hard phase where you'll definitely want to be using it, but those phases aren't long enough to where a 3 min CD is going to be used twice in any beneficial matter. So the reduce CD of tranq. is most likely just going to result in meter padding.

Druids are probably only hurting on raid spots when you get into heroic encounters where you may only be bringing 5 healers. Cho'gall and Sinestra for example. Would you bring 2 priest, 2 paladins? Yes. Would you bring 2 druids? Probably not. Would a 3 minute tranq cause a raid leader to utilize 2 druids? Probably not. Well Cho'gall's shadow aoe attack does goes out every 45 seconds, so 2 resto druids could cover every single one of them when the Adherrants spawn (which happens every 90 seconds after 85%). But if you use a mage/pyro strat on Heroic Cho'gall barriers/sac/AM/DG are much more beneficial since the mages aren't healable.

Last edited by Kluian : 03/09/11 at 2:47 PM.


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Old 03/09/11, 3:26 PM   #949
Playered
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Originally Posted by Kluian View Post
The problem with tranq is there are very few fights where there is enough heavy raid damage to warrant using it more than once. Typically there will be that hard phase where you'll definitely want to be using it, but those phases aren't long enough to where a 3 min CD is going to be used twice in any beneficial matter. So the reduce CD of tranq. is most likely just going to result in meter padding.
I don't know what you are talking about in 25 player heroic modes:
Halfus - one near the start, one near the end.
V+T - healing after blackout in each P1.
Cho'gall - once after a shadow aoe and once in the last phase.
Conclave - 1st and 3rd (and potentially 2nd/4th) frost aoe.
Al'akir - potentially one use in P1 and one at the end of P2 as per norm.
Magmaw - 1-2x in P1 and 1x in P3
Tron - during the fire aoe you can get at least 2 uses off.
Maloriak - both red phases or just one in the red and one in the final.
Artem - after the fire AoE blasts (I never see the need until near the end personally)
Chimaeron - fued and pre-P2 transition.
Nef - P2 and P3.

So that is essentially every heroic encounter in this tier of content (sans Ascendant Council) where you can reasonably pull off 2 Tranquilities and some you can pull off 3.

[e] Amended the fact I am talking about 25 man*

Last edited by Playered : 03/09/11 at 4:54 PM.

Originally Posted by Vontre
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Old 03/09/11, 4:42 PM   #950
Sasazuka
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Frostwolf
Well I'm glad that there are uses for a 3-minute Tranquility in heroics! Is this with respect to a 10-man or 25-man fight? Or would you say it's applicable for both?

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Old 03/09/11, 5:20 PM   #951
 Hamlet
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
That's a good list of times to use Tranq--a discussion I'm sure we'll have more once it's at 3m (I'd add in P3 council, end of Sinestra, maybe a few others). I don't think it works as solid evidence that Tranq is better than some of us are saying, however.

Just because you can find times where you can use Tranq without much overhealing, it doesn't follow that the cooldown is adding a substantial amount to the raid in terms of preventing deaths. A lot of them are likely to be just the sort of "meter padding" he's referring to. Yeah, maybe people are low and you're suddenly doing a bunch of burst healing, but it doesn't address the whole "barriers are better" issue that I won't repeat here.

----

Here's what it would take to prove me wrong: If 4.1 or T12 arrives and raid leaders start saying at some fights, "I want to have [2-3] Druids in the raid for [fight X] so we can Tranq every cast of [boss ability Y]." If that happens, then I'm wrong in my prediction that Tranq won't stack up to existing raid cooldowns. I suspect I won't though.

What will happen is, you'll Tranq a [Magma AE/Nezir AE/Maloriak Breath/etc.] 1-2 times per fight and feel good about yourself. But the in-between times, you won't Tranq because it's on cooldown, and the raid will go on just fine. Nobody will die, and nobody will particularly pay attention or care whether you happen to be casting Tranq for any particular cast of that AE (they will certain to have AM/PWB up for every cast though, just like now).


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Old 03/09/11, 5:32 PM   #952
Playered
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Twisting Nether (EU)
Oh I wasn't trying to imply that it is better than traditional cooldowns or even worthy of saying "right we need two Druids to cycle Tranquilities for x". I would say the times I listed can be counted as "good times to use them" where the effect is useful to the raid and while the majority of the time a DR cooldown is better there are times where I would say Tranquility could almost be reasonably comparable. These being Magmaw, Magmatron, Chimaeron, Halfus, Cho'gall and Nazir mostly - you can see the key trend here being when damage is spread out over a short duration rather than a huge burst.

I left out A'Council as the post I was responding to said there were few or no times where 2x Tranquility was useful and I only set out to show that there are plenty of times to meet that criteria outside of the current "oh shit panic" button it is now and in more of a choreographed setting. I have no experience with Sinestra to be able to feel comfortable saying times of use and again you only listed one time rather than the stated 'more than once' post.

As to Sasazuka I personally couldn't comment on the balance issues of 10 man although I would say the same should apply fairly well provided you are not required to have all 3 of your healer spots used for DR cooldowns in order to meet a rotation setup. If anything it should have slightly more effect in 10 man as it obviously brings the raid up a lot faster and the DR cooldowns provide less 'healing' in comparison.

Last edited by Playered : 03/09/11 at 5:42 PM.

Originally Posted by Vontre
I don't know anything

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Old 03/09/11, 5:43 PM   #953
 Hamlet
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Yeah, I wasn't sure which you were trying to do. If we do want to point out places where Tranq is actually really good, I think some of those are stretches (Magmatron, Halfus). I think the places in current content where Tranq really "matters" are:
--Chimaeron P2 transition. You want to top off the raid basically instantly after a Massacre and then transition. We use all our Tranqs simultaneously here and it helps set up a clean P2.
--Council and Cho'gall burn phases. Steady raidwide damage over a long period, and clumping up is impossible (at Council at least--at Cho'gall PWB is ineffective in P2 for a more subtle reason).

Then there are times were Tranq can be roughly as good as a barrier. As you described, the main issue is whether the raid damage is spread out over time. The thing is, Tranq takes ~6 seconds to channel and even longer to deliver the healing from the HoT (which is a large chunk of the healing). Very few boss AE's take more than 3-4 seconds to deliver their damage. The big ones are Nezir's Sleet Storm and (kind of) Feud. But what other ones are there? Magmaw's AE is 4 seconds and he casts it so often you can't Tranq them anyway. Halfus stuns so you can't even cast Tranq during it (but you can have a PWB down--incidentally, PWB on the tanks during Furious Roar was a critical part of the strategy on our early kills). Cho'gall's Shadow is close maybe--6 seconds IIRC.

This is a good summary of the whole situation really. A few fights Tranq is good enough to feel like a "real" cooldown. One situation where it truly uniquely stands out (and on that one, Chimaeron transition, Moonkin can give you 1-2 anyway). Zero fights where I, if I were a raid leader, would feel compelled to start bringing more Druids than I currently do because of Tranquility cooldown reduction.


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Old 03/09/11, 7:08 PM   #954
Oncelot
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Saurfang
Hamlet and co, can I just safely assume the discussion on tranquility and its worthiness to be called a CD is centered around heroic raids? Personally I have not done any heroic raids, but in normal raids, I don't find myself lacking a CD or lagging behind my fellow heal mates (in 10m). Yesterday night we downed Chogall (normal) 2 healing it with me (resto drood) and a holy priest, I popped TOL at the beginning of P2 and timed tranquility towards the tail end of TOL, and I I felt I made a difference (of course my leet holy priest mate also played his part).

Last edited by Oncelot : 03/09/11 at 7:15 PM.

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Old 03/09/11, 7:14 PM   #955
 Hamlet
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Mal'Ganis
Generally, yeah. I mean, only because Heroic raids (while they're new and hard) put a sharp focus on asking what you really need to have in your raid to beat a fight. I'm sure using PWB on everything in normal modes is still optimal, but nobody really notices or cares since boss abilities in normal modes do little enough damage that you don't wipe in that way anyway. There were exceptions even to that though, like Nef in the first/second week.


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Old 03/09/11, 7:17 PM   #956
Oncelot
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Saurfang
Originally Posted by Hamlet View Post
Generally, yeah. I mean, only because Heroic raids (while they're new and hard) put a sharp focus on asking what you really need to have in your raid to beat a fight. I'm sure using PWB on everything in normal modes is still optimal, but nobody really notices or cares since boss abilities in normal modes do little enough damage that you don't wipe in that way anyway. There were exceptions even to that though, like Nef in the first/second week.
Thanks for clarifying. I thought I'd ask because it is not clear. For those of us who are not in heroic raids, don't be unduly concerned as normal raids, we do just fine! *Resto4Life*

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Old 03/09/11, 7:57 PM   #957
Alafeya
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Zul'Jin
I get that we're throughput healers with movement utility rather than damage mitigation healers. I like the variety. To that end, allowing tranq to channel while we move would give us a niche, and raid leaders would value that utility on progression. It is a real limitation on the more challenging content that we can't use our most powerful CD without stopping everything else for six seconds. I barkskin whether i need it or not, just b/c.

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Old 03/10/11, 12:09 AM   #958
manbearcat
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Tauren Druid
 
Alonsus (EU)
"Druids now innately have 100% pushback protection from damage while channeling Tranquility."

This removes everyones concerns of having to waste barkskin on the new 3 minute Tranquility I guess. Pretty nice change.

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Old 03/10/11, 9:48 AM   #959
druover
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Night Elf Druid
 
Medivh
I'm suprised with all this discussion about "druids being worthy for 25m raids", noone has brought up that both dks and locks are getting a brez. With trees having lost the raid-wide heal buff we had in wotlk, and the CD concerns discussed in depth, I felt that brez was still one very valuable unique tool for a tree.

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Old 03/10/11, 10:22 AM   #960
RiposoEterno
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Stormscale (EU)
Originally Posted by manbearcat View Post
"Druids now innately have 100% pushback protection from damage while channeling Tranquility."

This removes everyones concerns of having to waste barkskin on the new 3 minute Tranquility I guess. Pretty nice change.

Where did you see this? I can't find it in the PTR patch notes.

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