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09/26/11, 7:17 PM
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#136
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Bald Bull
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You should be doing this already, every cooldown. Its 2-3 auto attacks for a 10 energy ravage, and you regen at least 10 energy while running out which basically makes it free. Ravage hits harder then shred, and generates a combo point (or 2), and with a 10 energy price tag, I'm certain its DPE makes it worth it.
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You'd be wrong. Not only are you missing out on at least 2 autoattacks, you're not regaining any special energy (you could also make the argument that simply sitting there is good since it regens energy), you're missing out on OoC procs and you're not extending any rips via shreds. There's a decent argument to be made that you should be doing something like this when the health is greater than 80% (for the crit improvement) but the DPE difference between shred and ravage - even a free one - is not worth 2 autoattacks along with all of the specials.
It's fine if you don't have to mess up your rotation or if there are natural breaks for running out and coming back in. It's not particularly good if you're just standing there. That being said, fights in Firelands alone lend themselves nicely to running in and out (assuming you actually can charge the target, so no Ragnaros) so there's a reasonable likelihood that we'll be using this regularly against most of the bosses in Wyrmrest assault or whatever it is being called.
It's still not that exciting of a bonus, however. At best it's a small DPS upgrade every 30 seconds for an ability that doesn't get used often. At worst it's completely useless. I'd like to see T13 boosts be a bit more generic and awesome.
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09/27/11, 2:09 AM
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#137
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Piston Honda
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If feral run speed is 9.1 yards/second, then in principle you should only be out of range for 8/9.1 = 0.88 seconds, plus a very small travel time for charge itself. Here I assume that spell ranges are measured relative to maximum melee range. Anecdotally this seems to be true -- targets with a larger melee range tend to have a larger minimum range for charge -- but I have not measured this explicitly for differently-sized targets. However, some quick stopwatch measurements with a target dummy appear to corroborate this assumption for both feral charge minimum range (8 yards) and 40 yard faerie fire. In particular, the time I measure between maximum melee range and minimum charge range is very close to the 0.88 seconds figure (again, only for the target dummy).
Realistically you won't be running directly out as you will want to maintain facing with the target in order to avoid delays due to reaction time. You may also need to add up to twice your latency -- once for the server to tell the client that you are outside minimum range and again for the client to tell the server to cast charge (I'm not sure how the WoW netcode works; this may not be necessary). Let's be generous and say you're running out at a 30 degree angle to the radius vector; this will scale run time by about 1.15, bringing the figure up to 1.02 seconds. Let's also say you have a latency of 150 ms and the netcode is such that you do need to add twice the latency. This brings the total time to 1.32 seconds. The travel time for charge is difficult to measure because it is so short (remember this is the time for charge to return you within maximum melee range, which can be much less than the total leap time). My stopwatch measurements impose an upper bound for this time at about 0.35 seconds; let's assume this is the travel time. Then the total time is 1.67 seconds.
Suppose you have 10% haste from gear and assume hit and expertise caps for simplicity. Then swings are hasted by 21% and occur every 0.83 seconds. You don't lose the full 1.67 seconds worth of swings because the swing cooldown timer continues to tick once you've stopped attacking; this means you save whatever fraction of the swing cooldown remained. On average you will run out when the swing cooldown is at half its maximum duration, so you save 0.5 swings. In total, then, you lose 1.67/0.83-0.5 = 1.51 swings. Each swing is worth swing damage, 0.0583 clearcasts, and an undetermined number of fury swipes.
Fury swipes is a 15% chance with a 3 second cooldown. With a 0.83 second swing timer there are 3 swings ineligible to trigger it after each proc. After that we expect it to trigger after 6.67 swings on average. A given swing then has a 6.67/(3+6.67) = 69% chance to be eligible to trigger fury swipes. Furthermore, if you lose a fury swipe you don't simply lose its damage, because by losing that swipe you raise the chance for subsequent swings to trigger it. Specifically, there is a 38.6% chance that a fury swipe will trigger within the next 3 swings, which would have otherwise been ineligible. Of course, we need to apply the same reasoning to these swipes: if one of them triggers then you lose 0.386 fury swipes from the next 3 swings, and so on. By this reasoning we can say that by losing a fury swipe we lose a fraction of its damage equal to 1-.386*(1-.386*(1-.386*(...))) = 1-.386+.386^2-.386^3+... = 1/(1+.386) = 0.72. Therefore, for the first lost swing we lose .69 * .15 * .72 = 0.075 fury swipe damage. Since the first lost swing cannot trigger fury swipes, the second lost swing has a larger chance to have been eligible to trigger fury swipes: 6.67/(2+6.67) = 77%. So for the second lost swing we lose .77 * .15 * .72 = 0.083 fury swipe damage. There are only 1.51 lost swings on average, so for the 0.51 lost swings after the first I will simply approximate its value by interpolation. Thus we lose 0.075 + 0.51*0.079 = 0.115 fury swipe damage.
For simplicity let us ignore combo points. The ravage option produces more combo points so this simplification only weakens it. Let us also assume that energy and clearcasts that are lost by taking the ravage option would have been spent on shred. Hence the total gain for ravaging is
(1+set) ravage - 1.51 (swing + 0.0583 shred) - 0.115 fury swipe - 10/40 shred
where set = 0 without 4t13 or 1 with 4t13, and ravage, swing, shred, and fury swipe are the average damage values for those attacks.
According to Rawr, in my gear
ravage = 34996 (below 80%)
swing = 5234
shred = 31752
fury swipe = 9444
in which case the total gain is 15272 damage without 4t13 or 50268 damage with 4t13.
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09/27/11, 4:41 AM
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#138
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Stormrage
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Right. Its not the ~2% dps increase it was pre SR buff to run out and ravage, but its still around 1% dps. The set bonus just encourages cats to stop being lazy and start using stampede as a dps boost.
tl;dr - You should be running out and kitty leaping in to ravage regardless of 4T13 as it is a dps increase.
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09/27/11, 7:27 PM
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#139
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Von Kaiser
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From the PTR patch notes:
Glyph of Shred has been renamed Glyph of Bloodletting, and now also causes Mangle (Cat) to extend the duration of Rip, in addition to its existing Shred functionality.
Sweeett 
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09/28/11, 3:03 AM
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#140
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Mr. Sandman
Night Elf Druid
Argent Dawn (EU)
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It's nice but probably indicates more fights we can't shred on, can see at least two culprits from the preview.
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09/28/11, 3:52 AM
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#141
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Stormrage
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I like that change from a "oh hey, I'm not double fucked for having to attack from the front" and at the same time, I really dislike the idea that a mangle spamming scrub will be better at cat dps. I feel like they could have made a better change to "un nerf" feral dps in positioning limited situations.
Maybe remove the positioning requirement on shred when you have both bleeds and mangle up on the target? I know there is a better way to solve the positioning issue. This glyph change just feels heavy handed.
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09/28/11, 12:50 PM
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#142
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Von Kaiser
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Actually, isn't Parry, and not Shread, the biggest positioning related problem ?
Attacking from behind will always be a big dps increase for any melee class, regardless of Mangle vs. Shread.
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09/28/11, 3:55 PM
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#143
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Von Kaiser
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The unnerving thing about this (at least to me) is that while this glyph is a godsend, it means that there's fights that you can't shred on and therefore can't FC. That means the 4p is looking less appealing in comparison to something that could be used on EVERY fight.
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09/28/11, 9:44 PM
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#144
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Don Flamenco
Night Elf Druid
Proudmoore
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Originally Posted by aldones
Actually, isn't Parry, and not Shread, the biggest positioning related problem ?
Attacking from behind will always be a big dps increase for any melee class, regardless of Mangle vs. Shread.
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While your points are 100% correct, Feral Druids are affected even more by this since the DPE difference between Shred and Mangle is still quite noticeable. Our DPE is also much more important than that of Rogue's (since our Energy regen is not as good), so our DPS loss will be even more obvious (only other competitor will be Assassination Rogues in Backstab range)
I really hope they would just do away with facing positioning for PvE encounters. It's not like the boss just deflect spells shooting at his face anyway.
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09/28/11, 10:14 PM
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#145
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Bald Bull
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Civilian, that's correct math - but at the same time it's a bit misleading as the chances of being able to do this kind of movement and tracking such that you only lose 1.5 seconds of swing time on the target (while being maximally distant right before doing so) is very small. In real applications chances are you're going to lose a lot more, especially if having to start dealing with mechanics that trigger when you're not in melee range such as some of the ranged-only attacks.
If it's a 1% gain it's essentially well within the noise of having optimal rotations, using procs perfectly and having good crit distribution for CP. Sure, do it when you can, but it's very easy to not get that production on most non-trivial fights. In any case, it's certainly not a slam-dunk boost to DPS and in fights where stampede isn't possible the net value of the 4p bonus in the end expansion is 0%. Imagine if this were the bonus that was part of 4pT12 - where the only time you can use it is when you're not a stunner and you're killing adds, because using it on Ragnaros is literally suicide? The Deathwing encounter has four floating platforms where you're beating on tentacles; I doubt you're going to be able to charge on them, either.
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09/28/11, 10:36 PM
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#146
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Rawr
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Originally Posted by kalbear
...the chances of being able to do this kind of movement and tracking such that you only lose 1.5 seconds of swing time on the target (while being maximally distant right before doing so) is very small.
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This is purely false. It's easy. If you think it's hard, it's because you're not trying it. It requires literally 1 second of movement, every 28-30 seconds.
EDIT: vvv No, that's simply not how it works.
Last edited by Astrylian : 09/29/11 at 12:21 AM.
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Rawr!
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09/29/11, 12:09 AM
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#147
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Astrylian
This is purely false. It's easy. If you think it's hard, it's because you're not trying it. It requires literally 1 second of movement, every 28-30 seconds.
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And having sub-20ms latency ....
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09/29/11, 1:11 AM
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#148
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by ceelion22
The unnerving thing about this (at least to me) is that while this glyph is a godsend, it means that there's fights that you can't shred on and therefore can't FC. That means the 4p is looking less appealing in comparison to something that could be used on EVERY fight.
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This is my thinking too. I'm being pessimistic but I'm expecting a lot of downtime moving about or stuck in situations where I can't feral charge. To cite past examples: - DPSing the constructs from the three pillars on Nefarion.
- Halion, with the cutters whirling around.
- Magmaw.
- Ragnaros (unless you like fire, lava and death).
- Any fight you're required to stack on the raid in front of the boss.
I suppose this would sound petty, but the other DPS class set bonuses are passive, whereas kitties require positioning and energy to use.
Originally Posted by Astrylian
This is purely false. It's easy. If you think it's hard, it's because you're not trying it. It requires literally 1 second of movement, every 28-30 seconds.
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I've been trying timing this but I'm struggling to get the total time cost under 2.5 seconds between: - Starting my run out.
- Pressing feral charge.
- Sitting behind the target again.
If we take into account the cost of a GCD - which I believe for feral charge is one second - this still leaves 1.5sec (from my testing) during which I've been unable to melee, fury swipe, get clearcasting, etc.
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09/29/11, 3:00 AM
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#149
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Piston Honda
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9/29 02:37:26.243 SWING_DAMAGE,0x05000000024685CB,"Stenhaldi",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA0000704C,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,2800,-1,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
9/29 02:37:27.095 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x05000000024685CB,"Stenhaldi",0x511,0x0,0x05000000024685CB,"Stenh aldi",0x511,0x0,81022,"Stampede",0x1,BUFF
9/29 02:37:27.095 SPELL_MISSED,0x05000000024685CB,"Stenhaldi",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA0000704C,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,50259,"Dazed",0x1,IMMUNE
9/29 02:37:27.095 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x05000000024685CB,"Stenhaldi",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA0000704C,"Raide r's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,49376,"Feral Charge",0x1
9/29 02:37:27.576 SWING_DAMAGE,0x05000000024685CB,"Stenhaldi",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA0000704C,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,5456,-1,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
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0.6 swings or so lost, and out of range for at most 1.3 seconds. That was basically the best possible scenario in that a swing hit just before I left melee range; if I were not watching the swing timer that would be 1.1 swings lost on average. Still substantially better than my estimate above, though of course this is just on a target dummy.
The timing between the feral charge cast and the next swing seems to be varying though, so my assumption may have been wrong that this time should just be the feral charge travel time.
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09/29/11, 6:53 AM
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#150
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Don Flamenco
Night Elf Druid
Proudmoore
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There's travel time as well as the range at which the boss model actually counts you at 8 yards.
At 150ms, I simply don't think it's worth it for me to use it right now (I use a hybrid spec for 10mans anyway, so it's not a huge issue), but when i do pick up 4 piece tier 13 I will start doing it
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