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Old 09/29/11, 1:30 PM   #151
Astrylian
Rawr
 
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Night Elf Monk
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
There's travel time as well as the range at which the boss model actually counts you at 8 yards.
This is thoroughly false. Really. Stop saying this sort of thing until you actually try it. No matter how big the boss is, the distance between how far you can melee them and how far you have to run to leap, is the same.

Rawr!

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Old 09/30/11, 12:36 PM   #152
Leafkiller
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Druid
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Astrylian View Post
This is thoroughly false. Really. Stop saying this sort of thing until you actually try it. No matter how big the boss is, the distance between how far you can melee them and how far you have to run to leap, is the same.
You cannot discount some dps loss while repositioning before and after a feral charge due to hit box sizes, boss mechanics and where you end up in the mob after the feral charge. Specifically, going back to BWD where we had zero distance FCs, if you did a FC on Nef or Ony you did have to reposition quickly to get out of stun range. While good execution limited the impact, it was not a zero time impact. Another good example was Cho'gall, where a lot of times the feral charge put you right in the middle of his body far forward enough that you would be unable to hit him without backing up a little.

I think we can characterize this into several categories. Obviously on a boss who behaves like the training dummies it is very predictable and you can simply strafe to the side and FC back in with no other considerations of positioning or timing. On bosses such as Nef, Ony and Cho'gall post FC there is some additional movement to reposition in order to avoid a negative fight mechanic. For a large hitbox boss, with no other positioning constraints, you have 28 seconds to adjust to the edge of the hitbox without impacting dps - we do this on lots of bosses already to avoid cleaves etc. As we move into the new content it will become clearer as to when we can use FC and what if any positioning adjustments we will have to make before and after. But we should not be so naive as to assume that it will have zero impact on the timing and dps benefits we will get from the FC.

From a timing perspective, I spent time simming this in Mew a few months ago, testing the various abilities to see which should be guarded from running out. This is where some of the current logic in the Mew script and my Ovale script came from (although I noticed that there are some small differences between the two, so I am not sure which is correct). Once the PTR goes up and the actual behavior of the set bonus is fully understood, I will retest and see if the existing guards on when to run out still apply. Given the increase in relative value from getting two free Ravages, I would expect some changes, both in when to run out (good chance it will be more aggressive) and when to cast the two Ravages. For example, right now it will try to cast Ravage during TF but at a lower priority than Rip, Rake and SR. Perhaps using both Ravages during TF will move up in priority, but that is hard to say until we do the sim work. The work on how long it takes to run out and FC back in are obviously extremely helpful in determining when it is optimum to run out, so I hope people continue to find ways to measure that. As I recall, most of my work was done with an assumed travel time of 2 seconds, but given the discussion here, I will look at testing in the 1 to 1.5 second range.

Personally, I do not like this set bonus as it is very situational - and I think the 4 piece set bonus should not be so situational. That said, I despised the T11 set bonus since it encouraged us to avoid leaving cat form at all costs, and the T12 4 piece set bonus is clearly situational enough that I have seen some feral cats who are not using it, so it is business as usual for our set bonus.

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Old 10/05/11, 1:17 AM   #153
a civilian
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Druid
 
Sargeras
Seems they changed the 4-piece to no longer involve feral charge.

4 pieces: Frenzied Regeneration also affects all raid and party members. This effect cannot be triggered if you have been in Bear Form for less than 15 sec. In addition, using Tiger's Fury will cause your next Ravage to cost no energy, not require stealth, and have no positioning requirement for 10 sec.
source

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Old 10/05/11, 3:14 AM   #154
Vaccine
Mr. Sandman
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Interesting. Adds a little to the TF glyph at least. I wonder if it's Stampede or a different effect, as if it is it prevents you using the existing Stampede effect during the opener with TF like normal, would have to use it prior to TF.

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Old 10/05/11, 3:32 AM   #155
Leafkiller
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Druid
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Vaccine View Post
Interesting. Adds a little to the TF glyph at least.
Yawning made an experimental version of Mew that includes the changes (it assumes the FC Ravage is separate). I did a very basic set of tests and came up with the following (quoting what I posted on Fluiddruid):

Using the new code, I grabbed an ilvl 379 toon and on the default patchwork fight it showed 31458 dps with the T12 set bonuses and 31720 with the T13 set bonuses. As a side note, swapping GoTF in for GoB had dps dropping to 31363, so tying Ravage! to TF is not nearly enough to compensate for the doubling in value the GoB received in 4.2. With no set bonuses (and GoB) it shows 29536.

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Old 10/06/11, 1:08 AM   #156
david0925
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Proudmoore
Well, this set bonus went from meh to really amazing. It's really not as much as about the overall DPS increase but an additional on demand burst without too much requirements.

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Old 10/06/11, 2:14 PM   #157
Daler
Bald Bull
 
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Undead Priest
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
Well, this set bonus went from meh to really amazing. It's really not as much as about the overall DPS increase but an additional on demand burst without too much requirements.
Hardly. It went from 2x Ravage! every 30 seconds to 2x Ravage! every 30 seconds. They just dumbed down how you use it.

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Old 10/06/11, 2:22 PM   #158
charriu
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Gorgonnash (EU)
Originally Posted by Daler View Post
Hardly. It went from 2x Ravage! every 30 seconds to 2x Ravage! every 30 seconds. They just dumbed down how you use it.
On a boss like Ragnaros, it went from 0x Ravage! to 1x Ravage! every 30 seconds.

Edit: Thanks for the correction.

Last edited by charriu : 10/06/11 at 6:21 PM.

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Old 10/06/11, 4:47 PM   #159
BOHIC
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Thrall
Originally Posted by charriu View Post
On a boss like Ragnaros, it went from 0x Ravage! to 2x Ravage! every 30 seconds.
If you couldn't feral charge the boss, it'd be 1x Ravage! every 30s (or 27s, depending on how the glyphs sim out).

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Old 10/06/11, 7:10 PM   #160
david0925
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Daler View Post
Hardly. It went from 2x Ravage! every 30 seconds to 2x Ravage! every 30 seconds. They just dumbed down how you use it.
Even on Patchwerk fights, using FC with zero latency with predictable landing spots has been a marginal DPS increase (especially with haste stacking as we are today, as the faster white hits will produce more OoC.) . You also needed to be near the outermost of a boss' melee range ring and run out in a straight line. This makes movement just for the sake of feral charging for ravage very very annoying. Let's look at the heroic fights of Fireland. The "dumbing" down made it usable on every single fight as oppose to just some.

This is kind of like the DW vs 2H frost argument Death Knights had before they buffed DW significantly in 4.2; in Sim perfect world DW was marginally higher, yet every Death Knights were 2H Frost just for the fact that it is better in practice.

Last edited by david0925 : 10/06/11 at 7:16 PM.

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Old 10/09/11, 6:55 PM   #161
Daler
Bald Bull
 
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Undead Priest
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
Even on Patchwerk fights, using FC with zero latency with predictable landing spots has been a marginal DPS increase (especially with haste stacking as we are today, as the faster white hits will produce more OoC.) . You also needed to be near the outermost of a boss' melee range ring and run out in a straight line. This makes movement just for the sake of feral charging for ravage very very annoying. Let's look at the heroic fights of Fireland. The "dumbing" down made it usable on every single fight as oppose to just some.

This is kind of like the DW vs 2H frost argument Death Knights had before they buffed DW significantly in 4.2; in Sim perfect world DW was marginally higher, yet every Death Knights were 2H Frost just for the fact that it is better in practice.
No, this is an argument based on ease of execution, not RNG-based mechanics not playing out in practice as well as they do in simulation. Using mid-fight FC is a DPS upgrade, assuming it's usable at all. Spoilering civilian's results from testing on a PW style fight (the training dummy).

Click Here ← Click Here
9/29 02:37:26.243 SWING_DAMAGE,0x05000000024685CB,"Stenhaldi",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA0000704C,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,2800,-1,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
9/29 02:37:27.095 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x05000000024685CB,"Stenhaldi",0x511,0x0,0x05000000024685CB,"Stenh aldi",0x511,0x0,81022,"Stampede",0x1,BUFF
9/29 02:37:27.095 SPELL_MISSED,0x05000000024685CB,"Stenhaldi",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA0000704C,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,50259,"Dazed",0x1,IMMUNE
9/29 02:37:27.095 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x05000000024685CB,"Stenhaldi",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA0000704C,"Raide r's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,49376,"Feral Charge",0x1
9/29 02:37:27.576 SWING_DAMAGE,0x05000000024685CB,"Stenhaldi",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA0000704C,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,5456,-1,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil

At a 1.3 second gap between swings, there's no way you can continue to justify not using FC mid-fight out of anything aside from apathy. It's just not that hard to pull off successfully.

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Old 10/10/11, 8:31 PM   #162
Marauding Master
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
The Maelstrom (EU)
After spending a few weeks refining my feral DPS rotations, I encountered the following issue.

In the earlier days, at lower crit and haste levels, you would maintain your debuffs and then wait until you are just about to cap your energy, then refresh something(usually Savage Roar) and that would be it. However, now, when I'm getting more and more Firelands Heroic gear, I maintain Rip, Rend, Mangle and Savage Roar, still have 5 combo points and I'm 8-10(or more)seconds of any of these things running out.

What do I do? I tried throwing in a quick 35 Energy FB but I wouldn't get the combo points back in time to clip Rip. Do I simply keep shredding at 5 CP. Or do I simply refresh any of these things anyway?

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Old 10/12/11, 2:12 PM   #163
Corren
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kael'thas (EU)
In your case, where you have extra combo point to spend, the idea is exactly what you're already doing : FB.

Imagine you FB for say 30K damage (low energy FB), then it is approximately equals to 3 normal ticks of RIP, or one crit and on normal tick.

If you manage to RIP your target BEFORE the equivalent of that number of ticks in seconds (one tick every 2 seconds, therefore you have 4 to 6 seconds after FBing) , your FB was a dps gain.

Moreover, if you time your rips with your TF (which you must be doing), then the problem of combo points exists only if you have less then say 2 or 3 combo points when you TF, because you will run out of energy to make combo points and might not be able to rip before TF fades. Otherwise, your good.

To be clear : If you can FB and make 2 CP before your TF is up, then *FF victory Fanfare*

You should also know (but this may be wrong for it's been some time since I last read that information) that FB at high energy is better than shred at 4CP. Maybe you can spare one shred, wait for your energy to reach 65, FB and then just wait a few seconds.

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Old 10/13/11, 7:01 AM   #164
Acidcamel
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Hunter
 
Terokkar (EU)
I've tested this set up myself... and it is pretty good. Reasonable amount of flexibility, Thanks.

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Old 10/18/11, 2:22 AM   #165
raffy
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Suramar
Should Rake be clipped as close as possible to expiration? Or should I let it expire and re-apply (instead of refresh) to get the initial damage? Or is that initial damage encoded into the refreshed duration?

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