I think he means if he's stuck with a sub rogue in the raid.

Having to keep up mangle by yourself doesn't change your stat priorities so much you would have to re-think your whole gear. It's just a quality of life issue mainly.

Heh, before this conversation gets out of hand, I would like to point out that I was able to (not be lazy) and test out the bug on the PTR. It has been fixed for both Hemo and Tendon Rip.

You can see it most notably here:


[19:29:55.556] Reesilol Shred Raider's Training Dummy 13753
[19:29:58.804] Reesilol casts Shred on Raider's Training Dummy
[19:29:58.804] Reesilol Shred Raider's Training Dummy *27288*
[19:30:00.605] Hyena casts Tendon Rip on Raider's Training Dummy
[19:30:00.805] Reesilol's Mangle fades from Raider's Training Dummy
[19:30:00.805] Raider's Training Dummy afflicted by Tendon Rip from Hyena
[19:30:02.116] Reesilol casts Shred on Raider's Training Dummy
[19:30:02.364] Reesilol Shred Raider's Training Dummy *25881*
[19:30:05.182] Reesilol casts Shred on Raider's Training Dummy
[19:30:05.182] Reesilol Shred Raider's Training Dummy 1 (O: 12923)
[19:30:08.743] Reesilol casts Shred on Raider's Training Dummy
[19:30:08.754] Reesilol Shred Raider's Training Dummy *1* (O: 26520)
[19:30:11.219] Reesilol casts Shred on Raider's Training Dummy
[19:30:11.627] Reesilol Shred Raider's Training Dummy 1 (O: 14125)
[19:30:12.324] Reesilol casts Shred on Raider's Training Dummy
[19:30:12.446] Reesilol Shred Raider's Training Dummy *1* (O: 28671)
[19:30:15.721] Hyena's Tendon Rip fades from Raider's Training Dummy
[19:30:15.827] Reesilol casts Shred on Raider's Training Dummy
[19:30:16.079] Reesilol Shred Raider's Training Dummy *20779*


World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

You'll have to excuse the overkill part. Some hunter had the Ghostcrawler pet and for whatever reason was doing the TO THE GROUND ability, causing the dummies to have 1 HP.

So I finally got my heroic T12 helm last night, and decided to check my previous plans of going 4pc with legs as offset.

The thing is, I simply can't make 4xT12 be a dps gain.

I have all 5 heroic T12 pieces, plus the heroic (391) offset pieces for those same slots. Pretty much all options are open at this point.

Up to now, I was going 2xT12 with gloves and chest.

Am I doing something wrong, or is 4xT12 really that crappy ?

The value of 4t12 is at least an order of magnitude larger than the difference between any two pieces of gear of the same item level.

What the ?!?!? How did I let my haste get lower than my crit ?

Will fix that and see how it works.

I was looking at your gear and asking wowreforge.com to hit the hit and expertise caps using the stat weightings from a Mew run and it can't get haste as the highest stat while hitting the caps.
I hadn't looked at a setup like that before as I'm unlikely to get all the 391 gear you have. I expect the [Ranseur of Hatred] would sort that out though. It is rather frustrating that the fancy fire cat stick is better for bear!

I changed the values in Mew as if you had [Ranseur of Hatred] equipped and the dps goes up by ~130dps but the relative stat values shift around a fair bit. Strangely enough crit drops down to 0.55965 while most other stats go up ~0.05 with weapon dps gaining 0.3 which almost sounds like your gear hits some strange point, or there's a bug.
The only stats I changed were the differences between the two weapons and being a slacker I didn't check how your current weapon was reforged.

With the 378 gear the crafted boots and rep belt both have haste so keeping haste highest while hitting the caps is easier. This was quite an eye opener to me as it hadn't occurred to me that the better gear might force a situation where you couldn't reforge towards the better stats. This is the downside of only one option in a few slots.

Any thoughts on Hit and Expertise for Dragon Soul ?
Based on what we've seem so far, it looks to me it won't be as important as it is on Firelands.

For Firelands, we have been doing hit/exp cap, then haste as high as we can, with crit and mastery balanced after that.

Anyone think that will change, and we can blow hit/exp, or one of those ?

How do you figure? The higher your other stats, the more valuable hit/exp are as a general principle. Missing x% of your abilities hurts more, the more your abilities hit for. The only way of reducing the value of hit/exp would be if game mechanics favoured bleeds a lot more than direct damage (ie a return to 4.0-style cat) and there's no mechanics changes that would cause a push in that direction that I'm aware of. Both t12 set bonuses lead to increased value for direct damage, but so do both t13 set bonuses. In addition with higher haste values there's a higher risk of capping energy if you get a miss event coinciding with tiger's fury + a clearcasting proc.

I'm thinking about relative rate values. As in, right now (T12 heroic), before cap, 100 Hit Rating is more valuable than 100 Haste Rating.

We have to consider non-linear increases, agility contribution to crit, Rating->% conversion rates, fight mechanics. At lvl 85, 128.125 haste rating equals 1%. While 120.109 hit rating equals 1% (expertise is pretty much the same). Expertise is more valuable when you are in front of the boss (dodge AND parry) than when you are behind (only dodge). The conversion rate for mastery is 179.28 to 1%, an even bigger difference. For crit is gets really complicated, because you have to throw agility in the mix.

If you simply go for the math, and completely disregard fight mechanics, you will find that Haste is better than Hit/Exp (slightly better, but still) in most cases for T12. But we have to consider the fight mechanics. Are we behind the boss ? In front ? Do we have to move around alot not attacking ? We know that Ultraxion (or whatever that boss is called) has some different mechanics where he can't parry.

That is where I'm coming from, and why I'm asking here. I think your point of view (or maybe just the way you expressed it) is too simplistic. If it was that simple, we would be going for parry exp cap, and not only dodge. But unfortunately, my math skills are not good enough to completely model this, and I haven't done the last 2 fights on DS yet to truly understand the mechanics.

Humm, wrong forum ? Dragonwrath is a caster staff.