[Feral-Cat] 4.2 Fire Cat funtimes (OLD) - Page 7

a civilian · 08/11/11, 2:18 PM

Originally Posted by ShaggyOne

On a side note, the tooltip for Shred seems to imply that it is directly affected by Mastery - i.e. Mastery increases bleed damage, therefore Shred damage also. I understand that we also have Rend and Tear which buffs Shred damage on bleeding targets (which does not seem to be the same thing alluded to on the Shred tooltip). So if Shred and Rip are my two top abilities, how does Mastery rank dead last in RSV? Certainly more haste = more shreds, and more crit = more FB/other finishers, so I suppose it could be the case.

Shred is not affected by mastery. The purpose of the tooltip line is to indicate it is affected by mangle.

ShaggyOne · 08/11/11, 2:22 PM

Well that's good to know. Seems like another poorly worded tooltip.

• Melthu · 08/11/11, 2:35 PM

For one thing, as stated in the OP Shred does not benefit from mastery, despite what the tooltip may imply. Also, it's important to keep some perspective - although the story in 4.0 was "stack as much mastery as possible", the other secondary stats weren't horribly behind. Certainly not to the extent of something like, say, haste for most of WotLK. So over the past couple patches that have nerfed bleeds, buffed direct damage, and now set bonuses that also favor direct damage abilities and de-emphasize bleeds, it shouldn't be too surprising that mastery could get overtaken.

ShaggyOne · 08/11/11, 2:58 PM

Originally Posted by Melthu

For one thing, as stated in the OP Shred does not benefit from mastery, despite what the tooltip may imply. Also, it's important to keep some perspective - although the story in 4.0 was "stack as much mastery as possible", the other secondary stats weren't horribly behind. Certainly not to the extent of something like, say, haste for most of WotLK. So over the past couple patches that have nerfed bleeds, buffed direct damage, and now set bonuses that also favor direct damage abilities and de-emphasize bleeds, it shouldn't be too surprising that mastery could get overtaken.

Thank you for pointing that out. I must have missed that in the OP, my apologies.

I guess I'm not so suprised that Mastery is overtaken by Haste, or even Crit. It's the Mew results which put it last, which I'm a bit suprised about. It's clear that Mastery is being devalued relative to the bleed nerfs and buffs for direct damage abilities. I suppose that the entire concept of ignoring hit/exp pre-4.2 was based on the idea that bleed ticks couldn't miss, so stacking mastery was the best option and as a result, put it above haste and crit on the RSV. Given the current environment, I can understand how the shift towards more direct damage increases the RSV of both hit and exp since we're relying more upon abilities which either land, or don't. And since haste and crit both contribute to more direct damage, I suppose it is to be expected that mastery might drop below all of them.

Daler · 08/11/11, 3:19 PM

Keep in mind the encounter style as well. On tank and spank fights, the value of haste and crit goes up (as does the hit/exp cap) for obvious reasons already discussed. On fights with periods of DPS downtime, the value of mastery increases while haste decreases (with crit generally staying in between the two extremes).

The end result is that any of the reforging profiles are generally valid choices. True min/maxing would require different reforge profiles based on encounters, but really the difference between a haste-heavy set vs. a mastery-heavy set is generally less or equivalent to the effect RNG has on any particular fight.

Furial · 08/11/11, 9:12 PM

After increasing my mastery by 200 and decreasing my haste by 200 (making sure mastery was my highest stat), the RSV moved to:

Hit - 1.379
Haste: 1.341
Expertise - 1,316
Mastery - 1,315
Crit - 1,314

It appears that the RSV is dependant on the [Matrix Restabilizer] proc. With the haste proc, haste's on 1,46 and mastery on 1.05- With the mastery proc we have haste at 1,34 (decreased by 0,12) and mastery on 1,31 (increased by 0,26). I wonder if the RSV will change much depending on the amount of a stat.

Daler · 08/12/11, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Furial

I wonder if the RSV will change much depending on the amount of a stat.

RSVs don't exist in a bubble. They are 100% dependent on your particular set of gear and encounter mechanics, and can vary wildly with even a change of 100 rating points (see, e.g., hunters and haste plateaus).

Leafkiller · 08/12/11, 10:56 PM

If you want a better idea of RSVs and the limited value they have - especially for what you are discussing, read this post by Yawning:

The Fluid Druid - View topic - 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Robosaurus · 08/20/11, 1:25 AM

Originally Posted by Daler

RSVs don't exist in a bubble. They are 100% dependent on your particular set of gear and encounter mechanics, and can vary wildly with even a change of 100 rating points (see, e.g., hunters and haste plateaus).

Exactly. If you look at the stats of Mew bleed uptime, you generally find Rake >98%, Rip > 94%, SR > 98%, but in the real world very few players (top 20) have uptimes that high. Mastery RSV is significantly reliant on these high uptimes.

Other assumptions which you need to use your brain for are encounters like Majordomo, where you have lose a lot of autoattacks chasing him in cat form, but can put bleeds up on him before he is in a transition. In addition on Heroic you would delay your first berserk until you have 100 concentration, another factor simulators do not account for.

Even encounter duration has a significant change in RSV. A 3:25 fight duration (Cough HShannox) without 4t12 would highly devalue mastery, whereas a 6minute fight would make all the stats more even.

This is why it is extremely important that you research not just your class but the encounter (I have listed some approx kill times in my strategies post to give you a guide).

TheJinchuuriki · 08/23/11, 7:26 PM

The almost last post on how2berserk: Energy flows during berserk. Although the previous computations may seem meaningless they shed some light on the dps/dpe differences between fb spamming, shred spamming and your current energy pool size.

The most important things to consider when you are using berserk is that you
a) don't energy cap
b) don't run out of energy before berserk's duration

For non 4p t12 berserk w/ heroism:
Now if you begin a berserk with 12 energy instead of 120 energy you only lose ~42 dps; I'm not suggesting that we start at 12 energy here but observing that it is more important to not cap energy than it is to start with a full energy bar. With this in mind, I suggest you start with no more than 90-100 of 120 energy; this should be easy to achieve without losing any gcds after tiger's fury. (note: It isn't important that you tf-->zerk, you want to be sure you don't miss any gcds; if you tf-->ravage-->shred--->zerk no dps will be lost)

The next point is to watch if you are energy-positive or energy-negative during your berserk while maintaining shred-spam; does spamming shred cause you to gain energy or to lose energy? With hero and/or procs from [Matrix Restabilizer] or [The Hungerer] it is very possible to gain energy during your spam, at which point you risk capping energy (ie dps loss). If your shred spam causes you to generate energy, fb at 5 points to prevent capping and do such to hover ~ 80 energy. Please note that these procs which affect your energy regeneration may not last the duration of your berserk, so if your buff fades and you move from energy-positive to energy-negative it would then be prudent to switch back to shred spam. If your berserk only has 6 seconds duration left and you are at 80 energy, begin dumping via 5point fb spam. If done properly you should be able to spend the entire berserk without capping and spend all your energy at the very end.

For 4p t12 berserk: It is best to berserk RIGHT before applying the first 5p rip, then spam fb @5points. Also, since we want as many bites as possible, beginning @ 100+ of 120 energy is mandatory. If all goes well your zerk should be ~40 seconds long.

IN A NUTSHELL:
If you are EVER about to cap energy during a berserk use FB instead.
Don't FB spam w/o 4pt12 if it will cause you to run out of energy before berserk's duration.
It is very important to be aware of your raid's usage of heroism as-well as your own haste procs.

@Robosaurus: Any chance you can be coaxed into making guides for the hardmode fireland encounters?

• Melthu · 08/23/11, 8:16 PM

Originally Posted by TheJinchuuriki

The most important things to consider when you are using berserk is that you
a) don't energy cap
b) don't run out of energy before berserk's duration

...

IN A NUTSHELL:
If your EVER about to cap energy during a berserk use FB instead.
Don't FB spam w/o 4pt12 if it will cause you to run out of energy before berserk's duration.
It is very important to be aware of your raid's usage of heroism as-well as your own haste procs.

Where is your proof that this is optimal? All known evidence suggests that using Ferocious Bite during Berserk is an overall dps increase even without 4T12, and none suggests that bottoming out your energy is an overall loss in dps.

Cluey · 08/24/11, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by TheJinchuuriki

If your EVER about to cap energy during a berserk use FB instead.

You mean "you are", if you want to shorten it it becomes "you're".

Please explain to me what difference there is between hovering at 80 energy or spending all your energy?
Assuming you don't miscalculate and have enough energy to keep your debuffs up I see no difference. Following your advice I can see people not being low enough when Beserk runs out, especially if you have Primal Madness.

TheJinchuuriki · 08/24/11, 3:24 AM

Where is your proof that this is optimal? All known evidence suggests that using Ferocious Bite during Berserk is an overall dps increase even without 4T12, and none suggests that bottoming out your energy is an overall loss in dps.

@Melthu:
Previously in this forum math was given explaining how without 4piece t12 fb spam is a loss of dps to shred spam supposing you are limited on energy, which would be true for anyone that is energy-negitive during thier berserk. These players will be ones with lower gear(haste) levels aswell as players that have opted not to hitcap. The basis for shred spam> ferocios bite spam is that in an adverage berserk (25 second duration) you are limited not by time but by energy, your only going to be energy-positive during haste procs or chains of RnG; so since were limited by total energy during the berserk the highest output comes playing the highest dpe rotation, shred spam:

Originally Posted by TheJinchuuriki

With Berserk

Shred DPE: 1273.1

No surplus energy

Ferocious Bite DPE: 1693.2

Full energy

Ferocious Bite DPE: 1126.9

If you bottom out in energy because you spent your energy via Ferocious Bite DPE: 1126.9 vs Shred DPE: 1273.1; you have inflicted a loss in dps.

Originally Posted by Cluey

Please explain to me what difference there is between hovering at 80 energy or spending all your energy?
Assuming you don't miscalculate and have enough energy to keep your debuffs up I see no difference. Following your advice I can see people not being low enough when Beserk runs out, especially if you have Primal Madness.

@Cluey: To be clear I don't intend to insinuate that you want to sit on gcd's to hover at 80 energy, I'm simply stating that going below 80 energy via FB spam could leave you with no energy at the end of your berserk if your placed back into a energy-negitive scenario.
Say your zerking off the line w/ matrix proc and no hero, for the first 15 seconds your energy postitive! So since your not limited by energy, you play the highest dps-berserk rotation: Fb spam. Uhoh; 15seconds later our proc fades and our energy is dropping fast; ie we are in an energy negative scenario; we are now limited by our energy and not the time left on our berserk buff; so to make the most dpe of what is left we switch back to shred spam instead of Fb spam.
The reason I suggest staying at ~80 energy when energy positive is to that you can continue to aggressively dps every gcd without setting yourself up for failure by being placed into energy-negitive-land with no energy and 15seconds left on berserk.
Once more to be redundant, I do NOT claim you pool energy to stay at 80, simply saying you fb spam it down to 80 then switch between shred and fb spam hovering at ~80 energy. 80 is not a magic number, simply low enough that you could confidently not cap and high enough to give you many many shreds if your forced back into the rotation.

NUTSHELL: Decided if your limited on time in zerk or energy in zerk. If limited by time, play the dps rotation. If limited by energy, play the dpe rotation.
Please note this is NOT for ferals in 4p t12

Vaccine · 08/24/11, 6:24 AM

As I said last time, having energy at the end of Berserk is always going to be a loss. If I remember rightly last time you brought this up as well you weren't taking into consideration where the extra energy would be spent and your DPE values were wrong. For reference, my values for Shred and FB are (651.7/1303) and (1046/1570), that is normal and Berserk. I even tried throwing my gear back a tier and going back to 2xt11/2xT12 and the values stayed roughly the same ratio.

Also are you assuming PM? I think the large majority do not take that talent.

Lastly it's we're not were for we are.

Also can you provide your working for this:

Now if you begin a berserk with 12 energy instead of 120 energy you only lose ~42 dps

Even ignoring the extra 20 energy from your PM and having it 12 vs 100 I work it out at about 320 DPS loss per Berserk cooldown.

TheJinchuuriki · 08/24/11, 8:15 AM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

As I said last time, having energy at the end of Berserk is always going to be a loss.

Originally Posted by TheJinchuuriki

If done properly you should be able to spend the entire berserk without capping and spend all your energy at the very end.

Originally Posted by Vaccine

If I remember rightly last time you brought this up as well you weren't taking into consideration where the extra energy would be spent

Originally Posted by TheJinchuuriki

Please also note that the two berserk options (dump energy before or start w/ full energy bar)

Pretty clearly spends extra energy in the full post if not that 1 sentence.

Originally Posted by Vaccine

and your DPE values were wrong.

Originally Posted by TheJinchuuriki

Note2: These calculations source from Simcraft t12 (no scale factors.)

Originally Posted by TheJinchuuriki

Last edited by TheJinchuuriki : 07/19/11 at 12:05 AM. Reason: thx for update on FB's bonus energy

Originally Posted by Vaccine

For reference, my values for Shred and FB are (651.7/1303) and (1046/1570), that is normal and Berserk. I even tried throwing my gear back a tier and going back to 2xt11/2xT12 and the values stayed roughly the same ratio.

How much surplus energy were you consuming with these bites?
What gear level are your computations? The simcraft I reference is t12 heroic gear; shred scales well with heroic weapons.

Originally Posted by Vaccine

Also are you assuming PM? I think the large majority do not take that talent.

If you are spec'ing for max damage you will find points in that talent, with en-lengthened berserk duration it is especially good for non-4pt12 ferals. I personally support the use of this talent when you can afford to put points into it.

Originally Posted by Vaccine

Lastly it's we're not were for we are.

Also can you provide your working for this:

Even ignoring the extra 20 energy from your PM and having it 12 vs 100 I work it out at about 320 DPS loss per Berserk cooldown.

That math was provided and re-explained upon request... to restate it would be a waste of forum space. Please refer to post #51.