This is a list of the available gear for 4.2, including Sinestra. This is not a BiS list, this is literally everything we can equip. For stat weightings, please read the first post of the Restoration guide by Hamlet: http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t110354-...a/#post1777982.
As a forum we will not be doing a formalized BiS list. Discussions can definitely happen, with critique of gear selections for each other. However, BiS are generally useless for a few reasons:
Most people don't have access to absolute BiS because they won't be doing (all of) the heroic modes
BiS lists are great for Orgrimmar & Ironforge, but are essentially useless for progress -- which is when your gear matters most.
I'm sure some folks will list what they're aiming for though, and then there will be discussions that follow. So, if you're looking for a BiS - READ THROUGH THE THREAD.
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The reason we make BIS lists, isn't for progression on this tier (firelands) its preparing for next tiers progression, whatever raid that may be.
Most of us won't actually finish it, but its something to aim for.
Now for our FL BIS list, we actually have more flexibility then ever before because we don't have any "garbage" stats, all our secondary stats are actually pretty close to each other in value, with haste having precise breakpoints that are easily in reforging distance, and spirits "soft" breakpoint. AKA you have enough spirit when you have enough mana for your longest/hardest fight, healing correctly. After that point spirit is useless.
I am going to go into a bit of detail on Stat Priority here, since obviously that's the number one consideration when formulating a BIS list.
Stat Priority:
Haste: Assuming 5% haste raid buff, everyone should have either 2005 (always that or slightly over, never slightly under), or 2032 if you have SoW. This comes before INT, because while INT is generally worth twice any other stat, if you are within 1-200 INT of a WG or RJ breakpoint, then haste up to that point is worth more.
For the BIS list, I always prefer to haste on gear, because its better to be reforging it off then reforging it on. We want to be able to hit that 10th WG/6th RJ breakpoint asap next tier.
HASTE past a RJ or WG breakpoint is our worst stat, worth less then half of what crit or mastery is!
And yet I see druids all the time with some random amount of haste, in essence wasting hundreds of stats. The reason for this is, haste past breakpoints doesn't add more hot ticks which is 80%+ of our healing, it just makes direct heals slightly faster, and the gcd for SM and WG slightly faster. RJ is gcd capped by talents, so haste does absolutely nothing for RJ between breakpoints, except make the overall hot shorter.
Intellect: Worth about as much regen as you get from spirit, plus spellpower, so its actually worth double of any secondary stat.
Spellpower: Best throughput stat, but we only gain spellpower from INT, and from our weapon. Which is why having the highest I-LV weapon you can get is important.
Mastery: Worth a bit over 1% thoughput per point. The better you are about using Efflo and maintaining 98%+ Harmony uptime, the more its worth. Since Efflo doubledips on Mastery.
Crit: Now worth twice what it was, its nearly exactly 1% throughput per 1% crit. It comes in just behind mastery, but it isn't bad by any means.
Spirit: If you oom, then none of the throughput stats are helping you. Now its important you are healing smart:
WG and SM strictly off CD if they are needed, dropping Efflo on 3+ people preferably
Using LB as filler during ToL to conserve mana
Using OoC procs asap
Using Innervate at 80% and off cd
Using a pot
Filling in with RJ spam as damage calls for it(not needlessly spamming RJ if they'll mostly overheal).
But if you are healing smart, and you have mana left over at the end of your longest/hardest fight(with a bit of cushion preferably, since they always get longer/harder), then more spirit is largely wasted and it becomes the worst stat. However if you are running on fumes at the end of a hard boss, then you'll want some more and spirit will rank right after Intellect and above Mastery.
This depends on so many variables, a tool or formula really won't work, so make sure you are healing smart, and just pay attention to your mana, and go with your gut feeling on whether you want more or less spirit.
I'm personally betting, since we'll have a lot more INT on the full 391 BIS list, and still quite a bit of spirit on most of the gear, that adding more spirit will be by far the worst stat. However, on the way to BIS, in current gear you may need more spirit for FL progression till you get that set. Play it by ear.
Running some comparisons on the new trinkets here, as I prepare my new BIS list.
Passive 433 INT trinkets:
[Jaws of Defeat] = 18125 mana saved every 2 minutes, or 755 mp5. Best case, assuming 19 casts. Of course you are tempted to use it off CD, however, it only saves mana if you are actually casting. So I wouldn't macro it anything, because you want to wait until damage justifies straight up spaming WG/SM and filling in with RJ spam to get off those 19 casts.
[Eye of Awareness] = So 342 hps, assuming a proc every 50 seconds (45 sec icd). Anyone that tested this on PTR, does it scale with caster stats at all? Apparently it can crit so I assume it scales with crit? (Above hps doesn't count crits, or in fact any scaling.)
[Necromantic Focus] = 480 mastery at the cost of 1 gcd per 19-26 seconds excluding misses... No it won't be BIS but it is almost tempting. Very tempting if I was Moonkin main/resto off, as its a lot of INT and good trinkets are hard to get for an offspec. I thought I'd put this in since people will ask about it.
Question is, if you used it, would it be worthwhile to keep up the mastery? If you used it, you could go 3 Genesis/2 Moonglow for 18 second dots. It reads like any dot dmg will proc it, not "a chance". Also I don't know if moonfire's initial damage would trigger it or not. If moonfire does, so you don't need to wait the 2 secs for a tick, then you could refresh at 26 seconds to give yourself room in case of a couple misses. So out of a 100 second period, you would need to cast a dot 5 times (assuming 1 miss). This would cost you maybe 3-4% throughput? (Since spells like WG/SM are a disproportionate amount of healing.) The 480 mastery gives you 3.36% healing.
So in a nutshell, you break even and it isn't worth wasting gcd's and mana and proccing NG when you don't want to. Still decent for the int, and you can of course keep it stacked during downtime on some fights. I won't include this in my lists as T11 healer trinkets will be better, but I hashed it out here because people will ask.
Other trinkets: [Mark of the Firelord] 360 INT on average, the crit of course can be reforged to haste or mastery. The proc adds 25261 mana (no Furor), for a bonus 5052 mana from Innervate (140.3 mp5), and some change from other Int based regen as well.
[Fiery Quintessence] Same average INT, but a bit higher uptime and smaller int proc, so only a bonus 4547 mana from Innervate.
Of the 2, I think I'm liking the mark more... However they do both have reduced value for an Engineer since we can't use Synapse Springs with our Innervate, it isn't a bonus 1441 INT for innervate, its only an extra 961.
Since I, and many other Alchemists will be losing 194 haste from our stones, being able to reforge haste onto a trinket could be a plus, of course there seems to be plenty of haste gear in firelands, so we'll see if that's even needed. However there is a strong likelyhood you'll need a trinket like this you can reforge into haste for next tier to hit 3400+ haste for the 6th RJ. So whether you use these or not, it wouldn't be a bad idea to bank one.
[Shard of Woe] Assuming 19 casts out of every 20 seconds, this is 1924 mp5. The haste is 322.5 on average, but worth more because it jumps you up an entire breakpoint for both RJ and WG(Which is why we go to 2032, as that extra 27 haste lets you hit the 6th RJ/10th WG breakpoint not only during NG, but also during our SoW haste use.)
Edit: Absolutely, SoW is still best. Got the item numbers mixed up. Even assuming you value int twice as much as MP5, JoD would be 866 + 755 = 1621 "points" or what have you, so SoW's 1924 mp5 stomps it, and that isn't even counting the haste use which is amazing. So yes, as I suspected from when I first saw it, SoW is BIS for 2 full tiers!
Last edited by Greentouch : 07/03/11 at 9:18 PM.
All anyone ever needs to know about being a Resto Druid in PVE, complete and up-to-date guide at: Resto Raiding Guide
That pretty much lines up with my thoughts from when I went over trinkets for the guide. I would have put Shard first, but that's academic. Unless we get new info on Eye (short ICD or good scaling), I can't see using it over good T11 trinkets or any T12 trinkets.
(When I refer to Rune of Zeth above, that's Mark of the Firelord--renamed for live).
Eye of Awareness, at least in the MMO database, was buffed to something like 15-19k heal instead of what the wowhead ptr database has. Not sure how accurate it is, but that's what MMO's database had as of a week ago (last time I looked).
Edit: I can confirm the change to said trinket. here is the normal version in the current build (as of 6/23) PTR's Dungeon Journal
Trinket heal does appear to scale with spellpower.
Eye of Awareness, at least in the MMO database, was buffed to something like 15-19k heal instead of what the wowhead ptr database has. Not sure how accurate it is, but that's what MMO's database had as of a week ago (last time I looked).
Trinket heal does appear to scale with spellpower.
Wowhead was updated to 15810 - 18373. So now we have 3 questions, does it scale with stats (are you SURE it scales with sp? And what about other stats?), what is its icd, and do hots proc it?
A wowhead comment said it was a 10% chance, but no one seems to know what the icd is or if it even has one, or if hots proc it.
Here's the work I've done on the BIS list so far.
For the tier slots, secondary stats are so close I think its perfectly valid to just go with whatever configuration is easiest to get... But in the interests of making an absolute BIS list, there are 2 haste/spirit tier items, 2 mastery/spirit, and one crit/mastery. I'm pretty sure by the time we get full bis spirit will be the last stat, so I looked at the 2 mastery/spirit slots, and the alt legs don't have nearly as good sockets, so I went with helm as the off pc.
I'll pretty this all up into a chardev as soon as they get these items in the database, in the meantime here's Wowhead links.
3035 is in gemming distance of either 3264, or 3475, gemming to 3475 is doable only losing 1 10 int socket bonus (not counting socket bonuses you'd ignore anyway gemming for INT.)
So 440 + 10 + 254 = 704 INT lost, in exchange for 6th RJ and 10th Efflo/Wg all the time, and 11th/wg/efflo during NG, assuming you can rely on having DI always.
That's obviously a pretty damn steep sacrifice. 3475 breakpoint has to be worth an easy 15%+ throughput. But of course you can factor in the benefit of the 1k odd secondary stats you would have with the other set, and the loss of DI for someone else, plus losing SoW hurts.
All told, at the end of the day, it probably isn't worth it. And you need to be killing H Rag before you can think about it. But it IS doable. I'll certainly be saving all those haste items, so when we get a few haste pieces from next tier we can get to this point with a bit less sacrifice.
Last edited by Greentouch : 07/03/11 at 9:36 PM.
All anyone ever needs to know about being a Resto Druid in PVE, complete and up-to-date guide at: Resto Raiding Guide
A wowhead comment said it was a 10% chance, but no one seems to know what the icd is or if it even has one, or if hots proc it.
Well I did a 10 minute Nourish spam on myself on the PTR a few builds back with this trinket and it does have an ICD. I was seeing a proc as low as 48 seconds. So if you factor in the 10% chance to proc, the ICD would most likely be set at 45 seconds. I have not tested this in TreeCalc, but I know when i tested this trinket in Rawr, it was placing the trinket as 3rd best (behind Shard and heroic Jaws)
Well I did a 10 minute Nourish spam on myself on the PTR a few builds back with this trinket and it does have an ICD. I was see a proc as low as 48 seconds. So if you factor in the 10% chance to proc, the ICD would most likely be set at 45 seconds. I have not tested this in WrathCalc, but I know when i tested this trinket in Rawr, it was placing the trinket as 3rd best (behind Shard and heroic Jaws)
So 342 hps, assuming a proc every 50 seconds. Which will vary depending on if hots proc it or not.
I'd say if hots proc it, then third best sounds right, and those who can't get a SoW should grab it. If not, grab a Rune of Zeth/Mark of the Firelord (same thing, 2 different names are showing up everywhere... I don't know if its faction specific or what the live name will be).
All anyone ever needs to know about being a Resto Druid in PVE, complete and up-to-date guide at: Resto Raiding Guide
Unless I am misunderstanding, I believe you are using an incorrect value for the 10th WG haste breakpoint: it's not 3475, but 3754 without DI, and 3272 with DI.
The 3754 breakpoint is achievable (with ~1200 int loss!), but overall reaching it seems to be a loss, and the DI one also seems a loss.
Regarding BiS items, I would differ as follows:
- The BiS weapon is of course [Dragonwrath, Tarecgosa's Rest] if available, while otherwise [Sho'ravon, Greatstaff of Annihilation] seems to be BiS due to the gem slot and 397 ilvl that gives it 2 more Int than 1H+offhand and the Mastery/Crit itemization; those preferring spirit might instead go for the 1H+offhand you listed
- A lot of options seem possible for the offset piece, not just [Cowl of the Clicking Menace]: the moonkin head seems optimal according to Rawr, but I haven't looked at this much
- 391 [Wings of Flame] should be better than 379 [Shroud of Endless Grief] unless needing haste, although they are close
- [Firescar Sash] is not upgradeable to heroic, resulting in apparently no leather 391 belt existing (but the 378 version is BiS of course)
[Jaws of Defeat] = 18125 mana saved every 2 minutes, or 755 mp5. (best case, assuming 19 casts.)
With regards to [Jaws of Defeat] do you keep receiving mana reduction after 10 spells are cast? If that's true the wording on the trinket seems very poor. However 10 casts would only yield 6875 mana. Which would make it slightly less regen than the heroic Cho'gall trinket. If there is no max cast condition the trinket seems to lack balance across healer specs.
Unless I am misunderstanding, I believe you are using an incorrect value for the 10th WG haste breakpoint: it's not 3475, but 3754 without DI, and 3272 with DI.
Sorry if that wasn't clear, I only quoted 2 haste points, and they both assume DI. The 3264 was what I got as 10th WG and 3475 was the 6th RJ.
Honestly if we don't go for the next breakpoint, which I don't think many will, then all of our secondary stats are quite close, which renders most BIS decisions pretty trivial. You are right I preferred to haste on a couple pieces which could be debatable, since haste between breakpoints is our worst stat, however it can easily be reforged down, and all else being equal (which they are closer now then they ever have been) preferring to haste and then reforging it off is our best option.
Why? Because this is the gear we are going into the next tier with, and next tier I'm betting we WILL be going for the next breakpoint. Those who prefer to haste on gear and then reforge it off, will be getting there a lot sooner during next tiers progression, for 2 INT difference, who knows how long it could take to get a haste weapon next tier.
Yes the legendary is the actual BIS, but if they make it so easy to get that we can get 8+ of them for all the actual caster dps in my and most 25 man raids, before the next tier, then it won't be very legendary will it. But I haven't actually looked into how long it'll take per staff so I don't know.
Originally Posted by Kluian
With regards to [Jaws of Defeat] I think your math is off. It will only benefit the next 10 heals, for a total mana saving of 6875 mana (~286.5 MP / 5).
My math was assuming that what it means, is your next 10 casts stack the mana savings up, and then the 10 stack applys to the remainder for the duration. So the first 10 casts save 6875 mana, the next 9 save 11250, for 18125 total. Which is what makes most sense to me, but perhaps someone can comment who has tried it on the ptr?
All anyone ever needs to know about being a Resto Druid in PVE, complete and up-to-date guide at: Resto Raiding Guide
They claimed the staves would have the same drop rates of fragments in 25 as in 10 (lame). Either way if a heroic kill yields a guarantee drop of 1 fragment... you'd be looking at ~5 weeks per staff given no other time restraints. I doubt healers will be seeing them sadly!
Originally Posted by Greentouch
My math was assuming that what it means, is your next 10 casts stack the mana savings up, and then the 10 stack applys to the remainder for the duration. So the first 10 casts save 6875 mana, the next 9 save 11250, for 18125 total. Which is what makes most sense to me, but perhaps someone can comment who has tried it on the ptr?
Yes you are correct with how it currently works on PTR (tried updating my post after looking more into it). Just seems odd to have a trinket give vastly different regen power depending on the spec using it.
They claimed the staves would have the same drop rates of fragments in 25 as in 10 (lame). Either way if a heroic kill yields a guarantee drop of 1 fragment... you'd be looking at ~5 weeks per staff given no other time restraints. I doubt healers will be seeing them sadly!
Yes you are correct with how it currently works on PTR (tried updating my post after looking more into it). Just seems odd to have a trinket give vastly different regen power depending on the spec using it.
You mean like how SoW is vastly better for Rdruids then other healers? Same with Trauma which was vastly better for Rdruids. It's balanced sometimes by items that aren't procced by hots which become crappy for us and better for the direct healers.
And if that's true that's massively lame. We could split into 3 10 mans and get legendary 3 times as fast? They talk about not forcing people into one raid size or the other, but that's pretty strongly in favor of 10 mans...
Edit: Ok I asked about that in Gchat, and they said there was a blue that said fragments would drop faster in 25 mans. But I can't find the blue to verify either way. Still, I imagine its somewhat faster for 10's, and if you run with say 2 hunters and 1 caster, then it wouldn't be unlikely to get the second one. So I guess its fair to call it BIS.
Last edited by Greentouch : 06/24/11 at 9:02 PM.
All anyone ever needs to know about being a Resto Druid in PVE, complete and up-to-date guide at: Resto Raiding Guide
I would like to get a closer look at the stack mechanic of Jaws. If it is the same as DMC:Tsunami it might actually be even better than Greentouch calculation as WG would provide 6 stacks instantly.
9. How do you plan on normalizing Legendary weapon acquisition rate between 10 man and 25 man raids? If the drop rate is the same for 'shards' in 10 and 25 man raids, this may 'force' 25 man guilds to run 2-3 10 mans in order to maximize shard/legendary acquisition. If the drop rate for 'shards' in 25 man raids was 2.5 times than that in 10 man, it could take a 10 man guild say, 2.5 months to gain a legendary whereas a 25 man guild would take 1 month. - Deathsaint (NA/ANZ)
Our main goal is to offer the Legendary in both 10 and 25 without requiring say a 25-player raid to feel like they have to switch to running 10s for the sole purpose of Legendary fragment acquisition (and the same is true for 10s). Our plan is to make Legendary completion take longer to acquire in 10-player raids. The exact ratio will be somewhat obfuscated because of the variation in the amount of fragments dropped per boss based on both raid size and raid difficulty. However, you can plan on it being maybe 2 to 2.5 times faster for the 25-player raid. It should feel analogous to number of Valor points or gold dropped in 25s, and is being treated the same.
The interview question and translation (a little rough)
Question: In a recent blue post there was talk that 25-player raids, the weapon could be put together faster than 10-player raids. Can you tell us more about how the weapon is made?
Stockton: We want to live as balanced as possible. The really big-time investment for the item, the actual Raiden, which is earned by the necessary fragments. Larger groups might be faster player with the profession-based parts of manufacturing to be done, simply because they have more players available. But by and large should not do too much make up the difference. This is actually rather trivial in comparison to the actual raiding. Our goal is for the 25 - and making 10-player raids as balanced as possible.
From the result of that MMO posted...
Both 10 & 25 are supposed to get the weapon roughly at the same pace
25M will have a small advantage of getting the profession related parts done quicker
So I guess we'll see (probably just an MMO error on the translation) but we should probably refrain from speaking on this further in this post since it's not exactly resto related.
Maybe I am living in denial, but wouldn't the intelect of a 391 trinket be superior to that of SoW? I understand SoW is really good, but from a throughput standpoint I would think the int would be greater (when comparing a SoW to a 391 trinket).
I haven't invested the time to look at the math, so I'll have to go back through that.
As far as BiS weapons go, I would say the MH/OH combination is superior to that of the crit/mastery 2h from Ragg. The MH/OH is only 2 less int, but you have haste which allows more wiggle room with reforging and other items, as well as spirit which allows you more freedom in selecting other non spirit items.
going forward into progression I will value spirit items slightly more for high end progression, with later pushing more into throughput items as I see how my mana behaves on progression. Simply speaking though, the MH/OH combo does just seem better item budget wise. (mostly in reference to the MH/OH combination. Necklaces and rings and such we don't have much of a choice, do we
Maybe I am living in denial, but wouldn't the intelect of a 391 trinket be superior to that of SoW? I understand SoW is really good, but from a throughput standpoint I would think the int would be greater (when comparing a SoW to a 391 trinket).
The math is there to support SoW but in general imagine that SoW is allowing you to cast spells(Rejuv primarily) that you normally wouldn't be able to and that adds up during a fight with a long duration. Also provides another "NG" with the right amount of haste which is also a nice little bonus.
Its just that powerful and special of a trinket, especially in the hands of a resto druid.
It's about time I got to post on Elitist Jerks, the 24 hour wait felt so long! I do not play a Resto Druid on Live however I am still able to answer a few questions regarding Jaws of Defeat from my test server experiences.
Originally Posted by Eldra
I would like to get a closer look at the stack mechanic of Jaws. If it is the same as DMC:Tsunami it might actually be even better than Greentouch calculation as WG would provide 6 stacks instantly.
When Jaws of Defeat first came on the test server, AoE abilities (Light of Dawn for Paladins, Wild Growth for Druids) did actually provide more than 1 stack, however this was very quickly hotfixed. In the current state, the state i assume will make it to live, it is only per stack per heal used, regardless of the amount of targets it hits. Wild Growth will get a stack, but only the one.
What i currently do not know however is the Druid Restoration (4) set bonus "Your swiftmend also heals an injured target within 8 yards for the same amount" is classed as a different heal. It isn't Swiftmend healing twice, its a heal that procs a different heal, which may mean you get 2 stacks instead of 1. Currently just a theory as I unable to test the T12 druid gear, but if it works out the way I predict then Swiftmend will be one of the better heals to use immediately after activating the trinket.
Originally Posted by Greentouch
My math was assuming that what it means, is your next 10 casts stack the mana savings up, and then the 10 stack applys to the remainder for the duration. So the first 10 casts save 6875 mana, the next 9 save 11250, for 18125 total. Which is what makes most sense to me, but perhaps someone can comment who has tried it on the ptr?
Yes this is correct, all spells cast within the 20 second window will recieve a mana reduction, and as you correctly stated it is the first 10 heals to apply the stacks and the remaining heals during the 20 second window will benefit from the reduction of the full 10 stacks.
Last edited by CuranderaEU : 06/25/11 at 9:50 PM.
Reason: A few spelling mistakes.
Using barkskin to "gain" 125 mana every 2 min seems.... wasteful.
You might consider nature's grasp, though, if you weren't planning on spending the entire 20 second spamming heals (assuming it gives a stack).
I'd imagine that the best practical use is to simply use the trinket in a situation where you are spamming a lot of spells and not worry too much about it. Even few thousands of mana you *might* be able to trick out of don't seem to be worth the loss of focus.
I don't think that's a bad idea if it works, if you pop barkskin instantly with the trinket, it isn't 125 mana every 2 minutes, its 2250. Which is more mana then we get by lining up eng gloves with innervate for instance.
As to saving it for when you need it, of course I'm not macroing it into the trinket or anything, that'd be dumb, in this tier there was a couple fights you needed to plan on using Barkskin for survival, (H Nef was the best example) but in most fights we don't need or use it every 60 seconds. If its a fight where damage is more sustained or random, vs predictable burst, then Barkskin any time will help reduce dmg, might as well gain 2k+ mana from it.
Especially considering you obviously should always be popping this trinket during heavy damage. I mean you don't want to be nuking out your max hps rotation and as many RJ's as possible if there is no incoming damage right? That isn't saving mana, that's wasting mana.
Assuming it works of course, but I don't know why it wouldn't.
All anyone ever needs to know about being a Resto Druid in PVE, complete and up-to-date guide at: Resto Raiding Guide
1250, not 2250 (125 off each of the first 10 spells). In any case, an interesting idea, but ultimately probably narrow in application. I'd have to be pretty comfortable with a fight before I started giving up Barkskin, and at that point I don't know how much I'd care about an extra 50 or so MP5.
1250, not 2250 (125 off each of the first 10 spells). In any case, an interesting idea, but ultimately probably narrow in application. I'd have to be pretty comfortable with a fight before I started giving up Barkskin, and at that point I don't know how much I'd care about an extra 50 or so MP5.
Well you aren't giving up Barkskin, you are using it during a period you are expecting to have to do some heavy healing anyway, aka probably a good time for Barkskin anyway! And yes I'm not sure what I was thinking... Basically popping it would get you one stack ahead, so the first 9 actual gcd causing casts would stack it to 10, instead of 10 casts, and you'd get one more cast with the full 10 stack. But 1250 free mana for something you should probably do anyway isn't a bad thing.
All anyone ever needs to know about being a Resto Druid in PVE, complete and up-to-date guide at: Resto Raiding Guide
Just a question on SoW and JoD, how do they work together?
Would a full stack of JoD on its own bring lifeblooms mana cost to nothing? Or would it need SoW too?
Just a thought for something like tree form if i ever get SoW, i dont want any of the mana savings to be wasted if you understand what i mean. Like if the mana reduction would have been more than the cost of lifebloom it might be better just to blanket rejuv while in tree rather than lifebloom spam.
10/12/10, 6:12 AM
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