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Old 11/23/11, 7:04 AM   #16
 Tecton
Soda Popinski
 
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Troll Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Vaccine View Post
I thought they might be removing healer interrupts but Holy gets to keep Rebuke and Resto keeps Wind Shear, albeit on a 15 second cooldown now. Not that it was the easiest thing to use but in some cases like Nef platforms it could still be handy for Resto/Moonkin.
Yeah, it's a utility I've made use of on occasion for Alysrazor adds/Nef platforms/etc as both balance and resto. As well as the obvious PvP loss, it's a bit of a puzzling change when it's not being mirrored to other classes, especially since it's far more inconvenient than the examples above to use.

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Old 11/23/11, 8:26 AM   #17
Raath
Glass Joe
 
Troll Druid
 
Shattered Hand (EU)
Originally Posted by Vaccine View Post
I thought they might be removing healer interrupts but Holy gets to keep Rebuke and Resto keeps Wind Shear, albeit on a 15 second cooldown now. Not that it was the easiest thing to use but in some cases like Nef platforms it could still be handy for Resto/Moonkin.
On the plus side Solar Beam is baseline for moonkin, so it is only resto losing an interupt.

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Old 11/23/11, 9:01 AM   #18
nephyron
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Druid
 
Nemesis (EU)
-2% spell dmg from Balance of Power
-8% spell dmg from Earth and Moon
-2% spell dmg from Earth and Moon Secondary effect
+20% dmg from moonkin form (+10% buff) <- compensate for 3 above nerfs
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-10% damage from moonfury aura
Wrath, Starfire, Starsurge base damage increase by 10% <- compensate for moongury aura
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Starfire 2.7 sec cast time (3.2 sec actually -0.5 from talent) <- cast time won't change from actual patch 4.2
Wrath 2.5 sec cast time (+0.5 sec cast time) <- cast time will go up because actually it's 2.5 -0.5 from talents
No more nature's grace, only 1% haste when you hit an eclipse (-14% haste each eclipse) maybe a tooltip error
No more 5% haste from moonkin form (now gives 5%crit)
No more Prime glyphs (-20% dmg for Moonfire and -10% dmg for Wrath)
No +100% crit damage from moonfury aura <- maybe it's a baseline mechanic for all spells? (heal/dmg)
+30% dmg from insect swarm, nice for PvE, but since it's limited to one target they could just increase the damage of our nukes by 30%. Useless in PvP because it can easilly be dispelled and there's no dispel protection on it.
Will this +30% compensate for the lost haste and the MIA prime glyphs bonuses? Maybe yes, but what about Wrath Cast time?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Symbiosis mechanic is unclear: does it take away one our spells and change it for the other class spell? (moonfire for icelance for example) or does it add a new spell?
The extra spell ould replace Symbiosis (like Dark Simulacrum)... where does it go for the linked friend ?
If it add a new spell: they haven't told us if it will be a damaging spell (i think it's useless because we have our own)
If it add an utility spell: yay it could be fun to steal from a lock the teleport or some kind of immunity form paladin / mage etc
If it add an healing spell: could be useful considering we are going to lose Regrowth, Lifebloom, Nourish in Balance spec
For healers this will be amazing because it could take something like PW: Barrier or another raid CD from healers.
What will happen when a Resto druid uses it on a Warrior / Hunter / Rogue / Mage ?

Last edited by nephyron : 11/26/11 at 6:18 PM.

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Old 11/23/11, 9:52 AM   #19
Raath
Glass Joe
 
Troll Druid
 
Shattered Hand (EU)
It does seem that IS is becoming non-damaging, however, so the 30% buff needs to counteract 14% haste lost and an entire DoT damage loss, assuming no tooltip bugs, which it may not at this point. Remember that damage numbers are "easy to fix" as blizzard keeps telling us so I wouldn't worry about our actual DPS until we have some real evidence to back it up. The loss of an entire DoT could also be a way of nerfing our multidotting abilities, however.

Additionally the 5% haste isn't disappearing entirely, it just seems that moonkins won't provide it. It is still in the Shadowform description currently.

I agree they havn't made Symbiosis clear yet, I would imagine that it will be that we gain a new spell but don't lose one, obviously speculation. This could cause similar issues as DI does now (incidently DI is becoming a raid buff of 6% spell damage), in that there may be crying over which class gains most from it. For instance, an arcane mage gaining moonfire could be huge. Again it is hard to tell until the mechanics are made clear and the spell swap list is given. It does say that it is based on our spec and role as to which spell we gain, and the targets spec and role for the one they gain.

I see no changes so far that would affect moonkin stat priorities so far, if anything more emphasis on haste since more haste -> more starfall in the new system.

Lunar Shower becoming baseline saddens me, there has been a significant amount of discussion on the matter, with the conclusion being that it is simply an inherently weak mechanic, due to the low damage gain, the stacking mechanic, and the loss of control of eclipse. This could potentially be a large nerf in AoE situations with mobs that die relatively slowly (think Maloriak).

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Old 11/23/11, 10:27 AM   #20
nephyron
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Troll Druid
 
Nemesis (EU)
Cyclone has 20yard range and without the talent it will be awkward for a 40yard class to run within 20yards just for cyclone

Last edited by nephyron : 11/23/11 at 10:54 AM.

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Old 11/23/11, 10:29 AM   #21
Daylis
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Druid
 
Sunstrider (EU)
Insect Swarm going to one target only personal CoE.

Lunar Shower being baselined in it's current bad state. I bet they'll force us to take it somehow, even if we don't want to learn it. Let's face it, no one wants to learn it now.


What we're looking at is a MAJOR nerf in our biggest strength - multitarget fights. It kinda was expected, given warlock changes in the past when they were in the same spot. It may even be wanted, we are beasts on fights involving multiple targets, but this leaves us with only 1 strong dot without (or with major hassle) being able to camp solar for Wild Mushrooms.
Warlocks at least, have the option of keeping Shadow Embrace, if not Haunt, on 2-3 targets at once, providing some strong longterm multitarget dot cleave. We won't have that, with IS being limited to one target only.


On the other hand, Nature's Grasp being back to 1 charge pleases me and Symbiosis has some very interesting implications. Symbiosis may just give us another, even bigger than current DI "If only we had xy spec in our raids..." (Yes, i raid 10man)


I just noticed.. We lost Earth&Moon from Wrath/SF/WM, but Warlocks still have CoE for 8% magical damage. Assassination rogues also seem to have lost the debuff, while Unholy DK's retained it.

Last edited by Daylis : 11/23/11 at 10:41 AM.

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Old 11/23/11, 10:44 AM   #22
Panthros
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Uldum (EU)
Seems Bears will have like a Crusader's Strike rotation with the new form of Savage Defense as an attack rather than a passive, but my question is, 60% damage reduction for 3s with no cd? Isn't it a lot of dmr? To compensate that, would bears have little windows of no mitigated damage, as Blood's DK have now? Wouldn't this change make us a lot of more squishable?

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Old 11/23/11, 10:56 AM   #23
nephyron
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Druid
 
Nemesis (EU)
I think that having only one dot will destroy our dps while moving (and lunar shower is stil in its current bad state)

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Old 11/23/11, 12:32 PM   #24
Shelendil
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Lightbringer
Resto druids gain:
Regrowth glyph is part of the baseline spell
Living Seed is passive
Ironbark - 20% damage reduction cast on target, 2 min cooldown
Wild Mushroom: Bloom - Causes mushrooms to heal all allies within 6 yards
Easy options to pick up Feral Swiftness, Typhoon, and Vortex

Resto druids lose:
Nature's Grace
Nature's Bounty - the portion that provides haste for Nourish
It would be disappointing to lose the above as the haste effects and interaction provide more interesting gameplay.
Also missing are Gift of Nature and of course the talents that boost x spell by x%. I can only assume the resto tree is unfinished.

Last edited by Shelendil : 11/23/11 at 12:44 PM.

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Old 11/23/11, 1:06 PM   #25
Kluian
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Tauren Druid
 
Korgath
*edit*

Thought they removed starfire as a seperate spell but it's now a balance only spell.


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Old 11/23/11, 1:07 PM   #26
Shelendil
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Kluian View Post
Do druids even have Starfire as a seperate spell anymore? I don't see it on the list?

Will the spell change from wrath to starfire depending on your eclipse state?
Starfire is listed as a moonkin-specific spell at level 10.

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Old 11/23/11, 1:09 PM   #27
spiritryu
Von Kaiser
 
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Troll Druid
 
Ner'zhul
Originally Posted by Kluian View Post
Do druids even have Starfire as a seperate spell anymore? I don't see it on the list?

Will the spell change from wrath to starfire depending on your eclipse state?
Looks like Starfire is spec specific. Balance only.

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Old 11/23/11, 1:15 PM   #28
Kluian
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Korgath
Originally Posted by nephyron View Post
Cyclone has 20yard range and without the talent it will be awkward for a 40yard class to run within 20yards just for cyclone
They might introduce a glyph for it to extend the range.


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Old 11/23/11, 3:15 PM   #29
Stommped
Piston Honda
 
Troll Druid
 
Magtheridon
As far as Lunar Shower being passive (which we all saw coming a mile away), keep in mind that they will be attempting to make Hurricane AoE in Lunar rival that of WM in Solar. Being that Insect Swarm dotting has been removed, there should be no desire to sit in Solar Eclipse. If WM is still outdoing Hurricane by a noticeable amount, we still will have the option of Starfiring in Solar as we wait to detonate on a big AoE pack.

As far as 2 target multi dotting, lilke V&T or HM Morchok, it will just take more staggered dot applications to avoid the energy lost (unless you are outside Eclipse in which you can just multi dot normally and benefit from the energy gain). MF, IS, SF, SF on Target 1 then MF on Target 2, back to SF on Target 1. At this point you should be free to refresh dots when they fall off without losing energy.

This obviously is far more tricky with 3 or 4 targets so we'll likely have to sacrifice at least 8 energy in those situations to keep all targets Moonfired. The biggest problem with this talent is that its' goal of providing on the move DPS is arguably not achieved. Is it worth it to spam MF on the move if you will take yourself out of Eclipse when you finish moving? Is it worth it to spam MF if you will overwrite an Eclipse MF with an Uneclipsed one? If the answers are no then they need to buff the damage to ensure that the goal is achieved.

Last edited by Stommped : 11/23/11 at 3:26 PM.

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Old 11/23/11, 5:51 PM   #30
Erdluf
Great Tiger
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Echo Isles
Trying to guess how much Wild Mushrooms would heal for (if thrown in at 85, and other spells remain unchanged). To integrate into current rotations on a regular basis:

1) Assuming current WM mechanics (cost, cast time, limit of 3, ...).

2) Assume that as an upper bound it should be weaker (either HPM or HPET) than both regrowth and HT on a single target. That means no more than ~22k/mushroom on average (TreeCalcs HPET for HT)

3) Assume as a lower bound, WM should be better (HPET and HPM) than Rejuv, given 3+ targets. If not, we won't use it very often. That means at least ~17k/mushroom (TreeCalcs Rejuv with Symbiosis, HPET ~51k).

That would mean you get ~17-22k/mushroom. I can't really see them going that high (ability to set up a ~60k no-gcd instant AoE heal every ten seconds seems a bit much). Maybe my assumption #3 is too stringent. In that case, WM won't even be in your AoE rotation, except as an emergency heal that you set up in advance when things aren't too busy.

It also seems likely to have an AoE cap in the 5-10 target range to prevent excessive stacking.

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