I added FoN for balance to simcraft.
The feral treants are a different story. First I thought, nice, treants melee with no damage range, but then I noticed that they spawn with different damage each time. It's like they select a random number from a damage range and then always hit for that in during their 15s lifetime, who would implement a pet that way. :S
That's how the original treants worked, they also had different swing speeds. Pretty sure that their individual dps was equal, though.
After playing around some with my moonkin on the beta, I'm starting to get real annoyed and disillusioned with Fae Empowerment. The interaction with Euphoria makes it less powerful than it maths out in theory, in addition to pretty much having to hold your Starsurge if you want to get everything in in time. It also adds yet another thing that I have to think about and focus on when I'm dps'ing, which resulted in no small amount of embarrassment when I got locked out of the final boss of Temple of the Jade Serpent. I guess I'm just not sure what it is that we're looking for when we want to add "complexity" to the rotation. We already have plenty of spells and our rotation is at least more interesting and engaging than, say, a Fire mage. I would vote for something more along the lines of a spell we can cast while moving, or an ability we can pop to cast while moving a la Spiritwalker's Grace. Lunar Showered Moonfires are strong, but it's not as effective or as engaging as a Fire mage being able to do 95% of his dps simply by switching to Scorch.
I'd disagree, after trying it out in the raids, our rotation is rather dull on beta at the moment and Blizzard are right to attempt to remedy this by giving us back some kind of judgement call to make. Our damage output actually seems pretty solid by comparison to other classes (obviously, the quality of most of the PUGs makes this somewhat suspect, but from watching streams we seem to do well across the board), however it's pretty uninspiring to actually play the spec as things stand. My problem is that most of the choices we had during Cataclysm have been removed:
Starfall: Previously, you could decide to save it for Lunar/multi-target phases/burst phases/movement/cast interruptions, etc. As long as you weren't losing a cast over the course of the fight, you had a choice to make with it. Now you hit it whenever you get to Lunar, or when popping CA.
DOTs: Obviously, we've lost one of these, which removed our ability to trigger NG when we wanted/needed it. We've also no longer got the decision of if we need to refresh DOTs prior to NG/Eclipse expiring, as Moonfire is auto-refreshed by our main nukes now.
Force of Nature: Removed as a baseline spell, and Soul of the Forest is better anyway (unless I've missed something changing). Not a huge decision here, granted.
FE in it's current state doesn't look like it'll work, purely because of the amount of fights where multidot/AOE are going to play a fairly large part of our role or where there is significant movement. As you say, Euphoria is also eating some of the benefit too. I'm not going to armchair a solution, but I think the fact that the bonus damage is only for Wrath & Starfire is too limiting.
That said, I understand why a lot of these changes were made. Balance had several "traps" in the shape of the lag before Eclipse kicked in, the fact that energy didn't trigger until your projectiles hit the boss, Starfall casts more stars when there is more than 1 target and other little oddities. It makes sense that Blizzard would want to make the spec more forgiving for less experienced players, it just removes a lot of the depth because it went beyond removing the awkward, broken things and also removed the stuff that worked well, just wasn't easy.
As far as your point on movement goes, I'd agree that we're in a terrible place. Spamming Moonfire single target is an awful mechanic when other classes get things like Glyph of Unleashed Lightning/Scorch/Aspect of the Fox/etc. Unless we overwrite our Eclipsed/NGed DoT, we've got very little we can actually do while moving. You might get an SS proc, you can throw FE as you are about to stop moving and you can plant mushrooms on the move, which although isn't as awkward as it was during Cataclysm is still a clunky mechanic.
If FE was changed into something genuinely interesting (that forced us to make a real decision, not just "Am I 3 casts from Eclipse and able to free cast for a while?"), and we were given some comparable movement ability with other ranged classes Moonkin would be shaping up fairly well for MoP. If those are left unaddressed, to be honest it's looking like a fairly tedious spec to play long term. Unless we're near the top of the meters, of course.
So if I'm reading you right, as far as the stand and nuke rotation, what we're looking for is something that is less deterministic, something that will shake up our rotation more than the RNG-prone Shooting Stars procs or the barely noticeable Euphoria. I'm wondering if maybe playing with Starsurge is the answer. Make it generate less (or even 0) energy inside of Eclipse, and generate more outside of Eclipse. So for a stand-and-nuke fight, you would save it for out of Eclipse; this causes your Starsurge damage to be reduced, but your rotation duration to be shortened and thus increase the benefit of NG and Eclipse. Contrariwise, for AOE or other possible fight-specific mechanics, you would save your Starsurge for inside of Eclipse, to give you another spell to push without having to resort to off-Eclipse nuking. Of course, with Starsurge's cooldown, it wouldn't be a spammable replacement, but in a multi-dot scenario your Shooting Stars procs would probably make it close to such.
What if they changed the concept/mechanic completely for Fae Empowerment?
My pet idea is this: Instead of doing a raw (and misleading) damage buff, what if they turned it into something like a mini presence of mind, when you cast faerie fire, your next cast time damage spell is instant? Their intent behind introducing Fae Empowerment was to add a little more depth, but not have that depth cause a huge numbers gap between the 'average' player and the 'elite'. Obviously they'd have to introduce an appropriate cooldown to faerie fire and maybe lower damage across the board or in certain areas to adjust for the boost, but let's just think of the concept right now.
I like to think of the level of decision making that would be added to the rotation in boss fights if the cooldown were like 15 to 25 seconds. Will burning it at every possible cooldown be the best decision really? At first glance it may seem like that, but what about that movement phase, would saving that free instant spell for a mobile moment be enough to counteract the choice of burning it immediately and then killing a hasted and eclipsed dot with lunar shower spam? What is the time window in which you should hold off popping faerie fire to wait for starsurge, or the reversal? What if starsurge is on cooldown and outside of the grace period to save the instant cast, do you cast the nuke relevant to moving the eclipse bar, or should you cast the opposite because you need to time your eclipse just right for an upcoming part of the fight?
That's fairly in depth decision making and guideline recollection process while in combat, or at least all of the intricacies and available options seem so in my book, as well as helping out movement dps potentially a little bit. This option could also change up how fights are handled, slightly akin to decision making made in T11, where there was some very heavy gaming of eclipse. At an entry or average level, a player will most likely just pop this on every cooldown, while a more involved player may save it a few seconds for some very important reason, resulting in hopefully only two to three percent damage discrepancies, which the devs seem to deem an appropriate discrepancy. This would also make a mechanic that is far less of a pitfall than the current implementation of Faerie Empowerment.
Anyways, that's my two cents to the discussion. Please note that the cooldown length that I used in my example isn't something that should be taken a something solid to work numbers on, it was just to convey the thought and help better illustrate the example.
When you cast Faerie Fire, you gain Lunar, Solar, and Astral Empowerments. Lunar Empowerment Increases the damage of your next 3 Starfires within 20 sec by 20%. Solar Empowerment Increases the damage of your next 3 Wraths within 20 sec by 25%. Astral Empowerment Increases the Lunar or Solar energy generation of your next 3 energy generating spells within 12 sec by 35%.
Shooting Stars: 50% -> 40% chance
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.
SimulationCraft Druid Guy
Probably more to come, but a couple of changes listed in the new build to FE and a 10% reduction on Shooting Stars proc rate.
Fae Empowerment: When you cast Faerie Fire, you gain Lunar, Solar and Astral Empowerments. Lunar Empowerment increases the damage of your next 3 Starfires within 20 sec by 20%. Solar Empowerment increases the damage of your next 3 Wraths within 20 sec by 25%. Astral Empowerment increases the Lunar or Solar energy generation of your next 3 energy generating spells within 12 sec by 35%.
The energy change is an interesting one, as it effectively removes the penalty for using FE (i.e. the single GCD you would lose). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this means if we hold our Starsurge until we're out of Eclipse when moving from Solar to Lunar we can get to Lunar 1 cast sooner?
It seems like you now can just pretty much use Fae Empowerment as soon as you leave lunar and 1 spell after solar (without SotF). This will allow you to use all the stacks and be safe for starsurge / euphoria rng.
Originally Posted by Tecton
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this means if we hold our Starsurge until we're out of Eclipse when moving from Solar to Lunar we can get to Lunar 1 cast sooner?
It doesn't seem to matter from my quick calculations, without SotF you will cast 12 spells as long as you cast 1 SS from solar to lunar (without SS/Euphoria procs), with SoTF it will be 11 casts. Maybe I am missing something, correct me if I am
Some scrappy calculations:
← Click Here
20+15+15+15+15+15+15 (leave solar) +27+20+20+15+15= 207 energy = 12 casts, 2 SS
15+15+15+15+15+15+15 (leave solar) +20+20+20+15+15 = 210 energy = 13 casts, no SS
20+15+15+15+15+15+15 (leave solar) +20+20+20+15+15 = 200 energy = 12 casts, 1 SS in eclipse
15+15+15+15+15+15+15 (leave solar) +27+20+20+15+15 = 202 energy = 12 casts, 1 SS outside eclipse
20+15+15+15+15+15+15 (leave solar +20) +27+20+20+15 = 212 energy = 11 casts, 2 SS
15+15+15+15+15+15+15 (leave solar +20) + 20+20+20+15 = 200 energy = 11 casts, no SS
Rest is also all 11 casts.
I think the energy change more than makes up for the GCD and actually now speeds up your rotation since a tiny bit since it reduces the number of casts required for the next eclipse by 1, saving you a full starfire or wrath cast (minus average time savings from euphoria and the instant casts from SS procs).
Wraths with AE gain you 5.25 extra eclipse, Starfires/surges 27. So if you have 1 SS + 6 Wraths, no SotF, you end eclipse needing 90 more to get to Lunar. AE gives you a 4 wraths worth of energy for 3 casts, 60. So, you'd still need another wrath+SS (or two wraths) even if the SS was cast under AE.
Looking at pre-eclipse phases, FE is essentially very similar to Euphoria conceptually now. It speeds up your rotation but at the cost of some damage, since you gain 60% of your non-eclipsed nuke, but lose one. The speed gain is less, but the damage loss is less as well (of course, you also now get the bonus damage for your eclipsed nukes as well, so that's some).
It does seem sort of worrying about the fact that if you somehow mess up and still have Astral Empowerment up for any casts while solar eclipse is up, you're going to lose an eclipsed wrath. 5 wraths + 1 starsurge = 95 energy. So, if AE is up for a Wrath, you gain 5 energy putting you to 100, if you use Starsurge with wrath, you gain 7 energy, again putting you out of eclipse prematurely...
Cancel aura macros/addons could be useful/mandatory (until they get broken) for dealing with movement uses of AE that will cost you wrath casts (assuming the damage lost from losing an eclipsed nuke isn't worth the speed up in rotation, even when your rotation is slowing down because of movement).
Will be interesting to see how AE interacts with Euphoria...assuming that the euphoria gain is calculated after AE is applied (I think that's how t12 set bonus and legendary calculations worked), I would guess that it wouldn't consume a charge of AE though if the calc works differently, I suppose it might.
On Patchwerk, with SotF it will likely be a good idea to cast FF with one cast remaining in Lunar:
With zero haste, you've now buffed the damage of four Eclipsed spels. With realistic haste levels, even a hard-cast Solar Starsurge before the last Wrath will not affect the results. It also avoids the Euphoria problem that hercdeisel describes.
The strategy might work Solar->Lunar, but with MF+SFall (and a strong desire to leave Solar with a Starsurge) it is a bit chancier. Incarnation may still be stronger, though (CA+Incarnation+FF looks pretty sweet).
Update: With 10% haste from gear, no SotF, and no Starsurge casts at all, you can cast FF during Lunar with two SF remaining, and still buff three Wraths (with 0.4s to spare). At that level you can also cast MF before Starfall, and still get all ten starfall ticks during lunar (but this requires no starsurge casts).
Again at 10% haste from gear, no SotF and no SS, FF must be cast after Solar, in order to buff three SF. However any SS on the way to Lunar (even if the SS was cast before FF) allows FF to be cast just before casting the Wrath that takes you out of Solar.
I'm programming AE into BPT and foreseeing tier bonuses like t12, I'd like to know the interaction between t12 bonus and AE, as I think they'll behave similarly. Unfortunately, I don't have access to t12, so I'd be very grateful if someone could check the energy gains with both t12 and AE for me.
Thanks to Zojun, who provided me with this:
AE is additive with other +energy bonus lite t12: SF and SS always gain +7 and WR +5
Last edited by copialinex : 07/17/12 at 5:41 AM.