Mists of Pandaria: All Specs - Page 46

Eluial · 09/12/12, 12:23 AM

OK, something very odd was just brought to my attention. I did a quick search in this thread and couldn't find anyone mentioning it. Has anyone noticed or heard about this before?

Someone made a post asking if CA/Inc stack. Someone said no, I knew that they do, but wanted to provide proof, so I made this post: Incarnation + Celestial Alignment - Forums - World of Warcraft

Someone pointed out a weirdness with CA/Inc damage, where it appears that the mastery bonus was double dipping. I thought that very weird so I hit both CDs at once, tested some more and couldn't repeat my results. Well, anyway, let me just copy/paste:

Very weird. I'm not seeing the double dipping effect anymore. I moved to darnassus target dummies so that other peoples' debuffs wouldn't affect my tests, but that's all I changed.

No buffs, just moonkin form, level 80 target dummy, no will of unbinding, no weapon

6947 SP
1617 mastery (total of 46.95% damage increase)

Eclipsed

← Click Here

Uneclipsed

← Click Here

CA

← Click Here

Incarnation (eclipsed)

← Click Here

CA + Incarnation

← Click Here

-------------------------------
OK, this is definitely weird. The tests above were very contrived, in that I used AC to move my eclipse bar around, and I just used CA/inc at the same time instead of the way we do it rotationally.

But just now I went ahead and set things up the way we do at the start of our rotation. So, 75 pre-lunar, hit wrath, Inc, starfire spam til end of lunar, CA, more starfire spam. I didn't cast any other spell, just starfire. Here's the complete combat log for that:

← Click Here

When I cast CA on the tail end of lunar, it appears to be double dipping on mastery again, even though it didn't earlier when I just cast CA at a random spot on the eclipse bar.

I don't know what to make of this.

realCool · 09/12/12, 4:05 AM

Another strange thing in simcraft:

Using:

actions+=/starsurge,if=buff.lunar_eclipse.up
actions+=/starsurge,if=buff.solar_eclipse.up
actions+=/starsurge,if=eclipse_dir=-1|(eclipse_dir=0&eclipse<=0)
actions+=/starsurge,if=eclipse_dir=1|(eclipse_dir=0&eclipse>0)

instead of

actions+=/starsurge

is a 100 dps gain because an average of 47.2 starsurges are casted instead of 46.5
This should not be possible as the 4 lines are every possible state you could be in and the single line should always cast starsurge regardless of state. So both options should net the same DPS as they are in the same position in the priority list.
It also seems that not all spell coefficients are correct for the balance spells. We are doing a test about these next to check that.

Tuscarora · 09/12/12, 8:24 AM

Originally Posted by realCool

Another strange thing in simcraft:

Using:

actions+=/starsurge,if=buff.lunar_eclipse.up
actions+=/starsurge,if=buff.solar_eclipse.up
actions+=/starsurge,if=eclipse_dir=-1|(eclipse_dir=0&eclipse<=0)
actions+=/starsurge,if=eclipse_dir=1|(eclipse_dir=0&eclipse>0)

instead of

actions+=/starsurge

is a 100 dps gain because an average of 47.2 starsurges are casted instead of 46.5
This should not be possible as the 4 lines are every possible state you could be in and the single line should always cast starsurge regardless of state. So both options should net the same DPS as they are in the same position in the priority list.
It also seems that not all spell coefficients are correct for the balance spells. We are doing a test about these next to check that.

Is the 100 dps difference significant? (what's the stddev for that number of iterations?)

Tuscarora · 09/12/12, 8:53 AM

Originally Posted by Hamlet

Casting an SS at the end of solar is fine (ideal in fact) so you get a second buffed one and then 3 post-Solar Wraths.
If you never get a second one, still same time to reach Lunar.
Conclusion: cast first SS at the turn of Solar or when it comes up, and if the second procs cast it when you have 95 energy (queue it at 80 energy). E: rather, the way energy is usually displayed, queue at 20, cast at 5.

Just to clarify, with the new Eclipse mechanics you need to cast the Starsurge the way you're describing, while in Cataclysm you could do the Eclipsed Wrath / Eclipsed Starfire + Eclipsed instant SS or DoT trick by casting the nuke at 5 and queueing the instant.

realCool · 09/12/12, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Tuscarora

Is the 100 dps difference significant? (what's the stddev for that number of iterations?)

25k Iterations
130 DPS gain
35.87 and 36.08 DPS error respectively

What bothers me the most is that you can see something at all
The 4 lines should be identic to the one line, as there is no ther state you can be in. So the simulation should show completly the same things. That it does not means there is an error in the internal calculating. At least that's how I am interpreting this

Tuscarora · 09/12/12, 11:53 AM

Yeah, that definitely looks weird. The only thing i can see is that

actions+=/starsurge,if=eclipse_dir=1|(eclipse_dir=0&eclipse>0)

should perhaps be:

actions+=/starsurge,if=eclipse_dir=1|(eclipse_dir=0&eclipse>=0)

Zantaz · 09/12/12, 1:01 PM

Just to go on a slight tangent, does anyone know if the Mirror Images that Balance Druids gain via Symbiosis actually do respectable damage now?

I know early in the beta that their damage was practically non-existent but I haven't been on the Beta in some time and was wondering (hoping, even) that they might now be worth using for their actual damage, and not because we don't really have any better options.

♦ Tecton · 09/12/12, 1:23 PM

We have plenty of better options, Symbiosis isn't meant to be a DPS gain, it's for utility.

Karepow · 09/12/12, 1:30 PM

I'd rather have a warlock's unending resolve over images. But that's just me.

Hasp · 09/12/12, 4:51 PM

Something I've noticed while testing in game is that if you are say in lunar, and you use CA, because an AoE phase is coming up and you want that hurricane, astral storm does not morph into Hurricane, and still keeps its Lunar damage, reducing the value of the cd for said situations. Is this intented or an oversight? Because if I get both eclipses, I should get hurricane using the strongest one.

Eluial · 09/13/12, 2:31 PM

Originally Posted by Hasp

Something I've noticed while testing in game is that if you are say in lunar, and you use CA, because an AoE phase is coming up and you want that hurricane, astral storm does not morph into Hurricane, and still keeps its Lunar damage, reducing the value of the cd for said situations. Is this intented or an oversight? Because if I get both eclipses, I should get hurricane using the strongest one.

I believe this is related to what I was finding above, about CA double dipping in mastery (it's the first post on this page). We discovered that if you use CA right at 0 energy, or if you use astral communion right at 0 energy and go to solar eclipse, but then spam starfire, you can actually keep your lunar bonus (until you use another spell).

I believe that if you went one cast post-lunar, and then hit CA, you would get hurricane, but since I'm not at work I can't test this. So it might just be the case that you always get astral storm in CA. But I'm willing to bet it's related to this bug.

fountaiin · 09/13/12, 4:09 PM

I see a lot of people popping Incarn after the wrath cast. Is the extra starfall tick being buffed worth it, as opposed to sunfiring and then popping incarn?

Hasp · 09/13/12, 4:44 PM

Originally Posted by Eluial

I believe this is related to what I was finding above, about CA double dipping in mastery (it's the first post on this page). We discovered that if you use CA right at 0 energy, or if you use astral communion right at 0 energy and go to solar eclipse, but then spam starfire, you can actually keep your lunar bonus (until you use another spell).

I believe that if you went one cast post-lunar, and then hit CA, you would get hurricane, but since I'm not at work I can't test this. So it might just be the case that you always get astral storm in CA. But I'm willing to bet it's related to this bug.

I just tested this, even if you use CA one cast after lunar it still keeps astral storm damage.

Zantaz · 09/14/12, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Hasp

I just tested this, even if you use CA one cast after lunar it still keeps astral storm damage.

As far as I can tell, Astral Storm doesn't morph back into Hurricane until you actually trigger Solar. That seems to be my experience anyway.

Hasp · 09/14/12, 3:13 PM

Regarding what Eluial mentioned on the CA double dipping in mastery. Did some testing just now and it appears that now it works like this, for my character atleast, when you use CA at the end tail with no Incarnation up, the damage really does double dip, however, every time I used it together with Incarnation, it was not double dipping. If someone else could test this it would be awesome, otherwise I call stealth nerf.

Edit: Must have been blind, but it is not double dipping outside of Incarnation either. So I call stealth nerf :<.