Mists of Pandaria: All Specs - Page 48

copialinex · 09/18/12, 7:38 AM

Originally Posted by Hamlet

Copialinex, do you read this? I was thinking--how about a widget in BPT that shows which energy levels are good/bad for casting Starsurge. This would mostly be for when the arrow is Solar--it doesn't matter to much when it's Lunar (although maybe could think about holding an SS for Lunar).

Bascially, you really don't want to cast SS at the following energy levels (note this shows the energy when the SS cast would start, not when you're queueing it):

In Solar Eclipse:
80, 65, 50, 35, 20, 5*. These all shorten Eclipse by one cast and lengthen post-Eclipse by one.
*only with SotF. Without SotF, you really do want to cast it here.

In post-Solar:
You always definitely want to cast at 0, 5, 30, 35, 60, or 65. At other values it's uncertain, but I could see waiting until Lunar.

It shouldn't be difficult to program, and I think it's a great idea, but I don't know how to show it. The options that cross my mind are:
-Modifying the bar color
-Modifying the arrow
-Some text alert (I don't like this one)
-A icon showing when not to cast SS
-A icon showing when to cast SS (this would include SS CD)

I think the best option is the last one, but I try to avoid creating a CD tracker because of the lack of Event API for CDs, (several weeks ago I discussed with tecton about including a CD tracker in BPT)

Stommped · 09/18/12, 11:16 PM

Given those numbers it appears that over the course of a fight you will be holding SS procs for quite a bit of time. Shouldn't this devalue crit quite a bit?

I hope Blizzard is aware of this issue because it seems to counter what they are attempting to accomplish with rotations. Being punished that harshly for using the hardest hitting spell that has a cooldown isn't something newer players would pick up on (the 2 starsurges in Lunar penalty wasn't nearly as harsh as this one is, considering the high probability you will be at one of the above energies should you get a SS proc).

Actually at this point it is probably just easier to say only cast 1 SS in Solar (since the first SS will always be ok) and then only use a 2nd one if it will be your exiting spell (obviously this won't work for SotF users because of the 5). This will be much easier than furiously tunneling our Eclipse bar.

Edit: Unless I'm mistaken that is it should be done all the time anyway. The first SS will always be ok and the second SS will always be bad unless you are sub 20.

Uspoonybard · 09/19/12, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by scotch17

To what extent is the Simcraft supposed to demonstrate what is attainable in game? Because right now looking at the feral rotation (priority list), I feel fairly confident saying that nobody could be expected to pull that off. There's over 40 items in the list, and there's easily over 100 logic checks.

Right now it seems like the feral simcraft is more a lesson in what's theoretically possible rather than something that can be used as a benchmark for feral players to achieve in game.

A lot of the simcraft priority list has incarnation in there, which soul of the forest will be better at 90, for most of the fights, so you can ignore those parts. There are only a few changes from this past tier except for SR takes priority over everything now and thrash is thrown into single-target in certain cases.

scotch17 · 09/19/12, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Uspoonybard

A lot of the simcraft priority list has incarnation in there, which soul of the forest will be better at 90, for most of the fights, so you can ignore those parts. There are only a few changes from this past tier except for SR takes priority over everything now and thrash is thrown into single-target in certain cases.

I was actually ignoring most of the entries that have 0 instances of occurring in the current sim.
Most of the complex entries relate to the NS/DoC spec which looks like it's a clear lead if a computer was controlling our characters, but I have serious reservations about the ability of a human to approach these results on even a target dummy where we can tunnel all we like.

Thrashing situationally with OOC and (unused) Incarnation entries aren't the issue I'm trying to point out.
I'm curious what ferals are actually parsing at on beta in raid content. Because it seems to me like we're setting ourselves up for failure by using unrealistic simulations to validate our position only to discover perhaps later that we're not up to snuff. And then waiting several months into beta for Blizzard to fix the situation.

fountaiin · 09/21/12, 2:08 AM

Classes

Druid
Starfire damage has been increased by approximately 3%.
Starsurge damage has been increased by approximately 3%.
Wrath damage has been increased by approximately 9%.

I still would have preferred a dot buff, but it's better than nothing. I'm glad they targeted SS too, and not just W/SF.

Nishimaster · 09/21/12, 4:30 AM

A few pages back I remember someone mentioning weapon swapping during HotW and going cat as a dps increase - is this mooncat still viable as a dps increase or did it get nerfed?

♦ Tecton · 09/21/12, 5:11 AM

Originally Posted by fountaiin

Classes

Druid
Starfire damage has been increased by approximately 3%.
Starsurge damage has been increased by approximately 3%.
Wrath damage has been increased by approximately 9%.

I still would have preferred a dot buff, but it's better than nothing. I'm glad they targeted SS too, and not just W/SF.

I'd be hugely surprised if we get a DoT buff, as we're already pretty potent in multidot situations unless things have changed drastically since I was able to raid test on beta (a couple of months, granted, but I don't believe the fights have changed enough to stop us being able to multidot like crazy on Heroic content).

Zantaz · 09/21/12, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Nishimaster

A few pages back I remember someone mentioning weapon swapping during HotW and going cat as a dps increase - is this mooncat still viable as a dps increase or did it get nerfed?

As I recall, the maths was put in a thread on the US beta forums which showed it still worthwhile to Mooncat, with no need or benefit to weapon swap unless the ilvl of your Feral weapon was higher than your caster weapon.

Slippykins · 09/21/12, 2:42 PM

Quick question - has anyone done a normal/heroic definitive BiS list for chickens yet? edit: I assume normal and heroic will be almost the exact same, but with that haste breakpoint it could switch some pieces around.

fountaiin · 09/21/12, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by copialinex

It shouldn't be difficult to program, and I think it's a great idea, but I don't know how to show it. The options that cross my mind are:
-Modifying the bar color
-Modifying the arrow
-Some text alert (I don't like this one)
-A icon showing when not to cast SS
-A icon showing when to cast SS (this would include SS CD)

I think the best option is the last one, but I try to avoid creating a CD tracker because of the lack of Event API for CDs, (several weeks ago I discussed with tecton about including a CD tracker in BPT)

Sorry if this is stupid, but how does this apply to Shooting Star procs. Obviously you don't want to shorten your number of eclipsed casts, but if you cast Starsurge as your first solar cast, and then get a SS proc, would you want to hold it until 15/5, knowing that you may get great RNG and potentially rifle off 4-5 in a row. Especially on multidot fights where shooting stars come quite often.

Stommped · 09/21/12, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by fountaiin

Sorry if this is stupid, but how does this apply to Shooting Star procs. Obviously you don't want to shorten your number of eclipsed casts, but if you cast Starsurge as your first solar cast, and then get a SS proc, would you want to hold it until 15/5, knowing that you may get great RNG and potentially rifle off 4-5 in a row. Especially on multidot fights where shooting stars come quite often.

I can't see it ever being +dps to do that. Even if you get 4 SS procs (incredibly unlikely even with a bunch of dots rolling) you would be losing 2 eclipse casts (5 SS vs 2 SS and 5 wrath). And the negative of not getting the procs is more than just losing 1 eclipsed wrath, you also increase your post eclipse casts by 1. Minimal gain at the cost of a very harsh penalty (and the latter is the far, far more likely outcome).

fountaiin · 09/21/12, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by Stommped

I can't see it ever being +dps to do that. Even if you get 4 SS procs (incredibly unlikely even with a bunch of dots rolling) you would be losing 2 eclipse casts (5 SS vs 2 SS and 5 wrath). And the negative of not getting the procs is more than just losing 1 eclipsed wrath, you also increase your post eclipse casts by 1. Minimal gain at the cost of a very harsh penalty (and the latter is the far, far more likely outcome).

Yeah, I'm sure you're right; I wasn't even thinking in terms of eclipsed casts as much as the benefit of ignoring the slow casting time of wrath @ 90, but in hindsight, with your gcd/haste there won't even be noticeable. I've just been doing too much pvp where I get 5-6 starsurges in a row and obliterate people, lol.

Something else; is it ever worth refreshing Celestial Alignment dots as Berserking/Lightweave are about to fall off, even if CA has let's say 6ish seconds left, as opposed to refreshing them with 1 second left on it? Same with other extreme procs.

thedopefishlives · 09/22/12, 9:14 AM

Originally Posted by Hamlet

What DoT usage patterns are the reasonably ones to focus on right now (i.e. each DoT once per cycle, twice per cycle, etc?). Trying to catch up on the sheet now, and just seeing what people are generally doing with DoTs so I know which setups to put into the sheet (for now, will probably update on my own once I've gotten to test everything).

Unless someone says otherwise, I'm imaging it's a choice between 1) cast only the "on" DoT at the beginning of each Eclipse, 2) cast both at the beginning of each Eclipse. But it's hard for me to guesstimate the relative value of adding extra DoTs since I'm doing the rotations before I have all the new coefficients and stats in.

Just to add some belated feedback for you, Hamlet, Rawr's simulator currently implements two scenarios: The "one-dot" scenario casts the Eclipsed dot if you are in its appropriate Eclipse and it is about to fall off, which generally equates to as soon as Eclipse procs. The "two-dot" scenario refreshes whenever a dot is about to fall off, regardless of state. There is probably some refinement to be had here, but in conjunction with my playing around in SimCraft, the latter scenario seems to consistently produce higher DPS. My guess is that an ideal refresh scenario would probably involve refreshing the Eclipsed dot before leaving that Eclipse, and refreshing the non-Eclipsed dot if you aren't within an X-second window of the next Eclipse.

Baire · 09/23/12, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by Hamlet

Bascially, you really don't want to cast SS at the following energy levels (note this shows the energy when the SS cast would start, not when you're queueing it):

In Solar Eclipse:
80, 65, 50, 35, 20, 5*. These all shorten Eclipse by one cast and lengthen post-Eclipse by one.
*only with SotF. Without SotF, you really do want to cast it here.

In post-Solar:
You always definitely want to cast at 0, 5, 30, 35, 60, or 65. At other values it's uncertain, but I could see waiting until Lunar.

Is this equivalent to "when in Solar Eclipse, only cast Starsurge once"? That'd be easier to remember, but I'm not sure if it's an approximation.

Miraclous · 09/23/12, 4:05 PM

Originally Posted by Baire

Is this equivalent to "when in Solar Eclipse, only cast Starsurge once"? That'd be easier to remember, but I'm not sure if it's an approximation.

No, you can cast a second one when you are at 5 energy for dps gain.