Mists of Pandaria: All Specs - Page 7

♦ Tecton · 03/19/12, 3:34 AM

Apologies, totally read the talent incorrectly. Ignore that!

♦ Tecton · 03/22/12, 12:42 PM

I'm not sure if it's just a character copy bug or if there's been a design change, but Insect Swarm is missing on beta.

• Hamlet · 03/22/12, 2:50 PM

Didn't exactly the same thing happen last time? Weird.

Not in yet, so might bug people for various info if I feel like looking at the sheets at some point.

♦ Tecton · 03/22/12, 3:44 PM

Yeah, strange that it's happened again.

Happy to check anything in the meantime.

[edit]

Adding a few things I've noticed:

You no longer need to wait for Wrath to hit to gain the Energy from it. The slight lag between getting to 100 Energy and the Eclipse triggering no longer exists either, as soon as your cast finishes, you're in the new Eclipse.

Just to confirm, Sunfire & Moonfire can both be on a target at the same time as part of the regular rotation.

DOTs keep any spellpower buffs they had when originally cast when refreshed by Wrath/Starfire, it doesn't recheck spellpower at least. Haven't checked percentage damage buffs or haste yet, though.

[/edit]

• Hamlet · 03/22/12, 4:19 PM

I don't have a serious plan yet, just with all the buzz been thinking a basic sheet update would be easy based on how all the systems are generally getting simpler. It might be a pain until I'm in myself. Also, testing spell coefficients is simple but tedious and they generally get datamined (the SimC people did it last time), so another option is just to wait. Actually, wowhead spell DB might have all that stuff by now anyway.

If anything I'd just be curious about basic systems--what's the rating conversion at 90, what's the new regen formula, check on all the derived stats, any spell coefficient changes, all of that stuff.

e: and awesome, yeah, that's the kind of stuff I'd just note down while playing with a dummy for a while. That's why I didn't have a specific set of requests yet, just have to see what all's going on first.

♦ Tecton · 03/22/12, 4:35 PM

I'll just put anything I pick up on here then for now.

One interesting thing: your treants are now casters, they spam Wrath.

[edit] Oh, and the new moonkin form (with glyph) lets us use mounts too. They get a light blue tinge, does weird things to some of them. [/edit]

thedopefishlives · 03/22/12, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by Tecton

I'll just put anything I pick up on here then for now.

One interesting thing: your treants are now casters, they spam Wrath.

[edit] Oh, and the new moonkin form (with glyph) lets us use mounts too. They get a light blue tinge, does weird things to some of them. [/edit]

Any chance you can get some damage numbers for them? Base damage, scaling, number of casts while they're up... Would be lovely. Especially see if they scale with our Crit/Haste/Mastery (they didn't before).

• Hamlet · 03/22/12, 6:05 PM

Yeah, may as well test those by hand anyway--the spell data is unreliable for working out pet behavior. Especially if they're anything like 2T12 treant casters which had all kinds of weird issues.

lissanna · 03/22/12, 8:05 PM

I like how Soul of the Forest interacts with moonkin's single-target rotation, since it makes it such that you have both DOTs up for most of the stand-still rotation. I just like how the spec plays with that talent. I don't think Incarnation is going to be worthwhile in practice, especially with being able to proc Eclipse on-demand once every 3 minutes with the ability we get baseline.

The AI on force of nature seems to work fine, but soul of the forest is just such a nice talent that I'm not sure I'd take FoN over Soul of the Forest just because that passive bonus is just so nice for impacting how our Eclipse rotation feels. There may be specific fights, however, with more movement or AOE damage phases that may make FoN or incarnation a better choice.

♦ Tecton · 03/23/12, 4:34 AM

Ok, some more info on Force of Nature:

First of all: we have a pet bar for them, which comes with Wrath & Roots on autocast. You can turn roots off of autocast if you prefer. That means we can move them/etc.

I'm getting a huge amount of misses on the boss level training dummy, although my character sheet reads 0% chance to miss. Either it's been bumped in level or hit reqs are higher now? Either way, treants are still inheriting our +hit, as they never miss the level 60 version.

Regardless of Haste, you seem to get 12 casts from each one, so 36 in total. If summoned directly on top of a target, they'll melee swing it first, then give you your 12 casts. I guess if that behaviour remains, summoning them on your target will be optimal where safe to do so. This also stops them running about for half a second before picking up the pet AI.

Min/max values naked (142 spellpower) are 485-537. With gear on (11070 spellpower) it's 3275-3325. With Bottled Wishes up (2290 extra spellpower), they did 3477-3515. Over 108 of their casts with my regular gear on, there were only 4 crits at 200%. That's with 16.16% crit.

Tested with 213 extra mastery from the Alchemy trinket while naked and saw no damage increase. So it's looking like Crit/Mastery have no effect and either they don't scale from Haste (difficult to tell without any addons their exact cast length, is there any macro you can use to get this?) or don't scale quickly enough to be noticeable at this gear level.

[edit] Had a PM asking if I could test how they interact with Heroism/Bloodlust. Will find someone to be a buffbot for me and check on that too. [/edit]
[edit2] And my character is bugged and I can't log into it, will try more later when it's sorted. [/edit2]

thedopefishlives · 03/23/12, 8:07 AM

Originally Posted by Tecton

Ok, some more info on Force of Nature:

First of all: we have a pet bar for them, which comes with Wrath & Roots on autocast. You can turn roots off of autocast if you prefer. That means we can move them/etc.

I'm getting a huge amount of misses on the boss level training dummy, although my character sheet reads 0% chance to miss. Either it's been bumped in level or hit reqs are higher now? Either way, treants are still inheriting our +hit, as they never miss the level 60 version.

Regardless of Haste, you seem to get 12 casts from each one, so 36 in total. If summoned directly on top of a target, they'll melee swing it first, then give you your 12 casts. I guess if that behaviour remains, summoning them on your target will be optimal where safe to do so. This also stops them running about for half a second before picking up the pet AI.

Min/max values naked (142 spellpower) are 485-537. With gear on (11070 spellpower) it's 3275-3325. With Bottled Wishes up (2290 extra spellpower), they did 3477-3515. Over 108 of their casts with my regular gear on, there were only 4 crits at 200%. That's with 16.16% crit.

Tested with 213 extra mastery from the Alchemy trinket while naked and saw no damage increase. So it's looking like Crit/Mastery have no effect and either they don't scale from Haste (difficult to tell without any addons their exact cast length, is there any macro you can use to get this?) or don't scale quickly enough to be noticeable at this gear level.

[edit] Had a PM asking if I could test how they interact with Heroism/Bloodlust. Will find someone to be a buffbot for me and check on that too. [/edit]
[edit2] And my character is bugged and I can't log into it, will try more later when it's sorted. [/edit2]

Okay, doing the basic math, I derive the following values for our treants' Wrath cast damage:
Base damage = 475 average (450-500 range)
Spellpower scaling = 0.2552

♦ Tecton · 03/23/12, 8:16 AM

Got a shaman to help me out, and Heroism/Bloodlust works for Treants in the same way as it does now (i.e. if they are down before it goes off, they get the benefit, if not, no benefit).

• Hamlet · 03/23/12, 9:14 AM

So reviewing:

--The rotation is the same as Cata fundamentally, as far as Eclipse. Probably roughly the same length since W/SF cast times are the same (2.0, 2.7) and energy gains are the same (well, 20 for Starsurge).
--The two DoT's are now Moonfire and Sunfire. You cast eclipsed Moonfire at the beginning of Lunar. It gets auto-refreshed, so the timer really starts running after your last Lunar Starfire. 18s will carry you through pre-Solar and most of Solar. So fair to assume for now that we cast one Eclipsed DoT at the beginning each Eclipse and don't refresh otherwise?
--I'm assuming here that Moonfire and Sunfire can overlap even outside of Celestial Alignment. So uptime for each DoT is (Eclipse duration + 18)/(Cycle length).
--You said that Eclipse triggers instantly now. Does that mean you can queue up a DoT right at the Eclipse turn and have it buffed or is that still too fast?
--One Starfall cast every Lunar as well.

If this is all right, mechanics are basically the same as Cata and should be easy to do. The only new DPS spells are Celestial Alignment and Incarnation (and Soul of the Forest, which is easy).

thedopefishlives · 03/23/12, 9:40 AM

Originally Posted by Hamlet

So reviewing:

--The rotation is the same as Cata fundamentally, as far as Eclipse. Probably roughly the same length since W/SF cast times are the same (2.0, 2.7) and energy gains are the same (well, 20 for Starsurge).
--The two DoT's are now Moonfire and Sunfire. You cast eclipsed Moonfire at the beginning of Lunar. It gets auto-refreshed, so the timer really starts running after your last Lunar Starfire. 18s will carry you through pre-Solar and most of Solar. So fair to assume for now that we cast one Eclipsed DoT at the beginning each Eclipse and don't refresh otherwise?
--I'm assuming here that Moonfire and Sunfire can overlap even outside of Celestial Alignment. So uptime for each DoT is (Eclipse duration + 18)/(Cycle length).
--You said that Eclipse triggers instantly now. Does that mean you can queue up a DoT right at the Eclipse turn and have it buffed or is that still too fast?
--One Starfall cast every Lunar as well.

If this is all right, mechanics are basically the same as Cata and should be easy to do. The only new DPS spells are Celestial Alignment and Incarnation (and Soul of the Forest, which is easy).

Actually, I believe Erdluf's proposed cast order where you cast Moonfire at the end of Solar, rather than at the beginning of Lunar, may be correct. That all depends on if the refresh mechanic updates the damage multiplier. Could someone check this real quick?

• Hamlet · 03/23/12, 10:41 AM

Ah of course. So 18 free seconds of uneclipsed Moonfire at the beginning, followed by what I described above (assuming it works). That's a good one to check.

----

Napkin math on talents:
--SotF: increases Eclipse uptime from 50% to 55% (roughly), as you're now Eclipsed for 5/9 of the bar instead of 5/10. 100s out of every 180.
--CA: assuming you use right as Eclipse ends and and it drops you back at 0 energy, generally leaves everything unaffected after the 15s of free Eclipse (putting aside some DoT refresh issues). So normal Eclipse the rest of the time, plus 15s every 180. 50%*165+15 = 97.5s out of 180.
SotF+CA: 15 + 5/9*165 = 106.7s out of every 180.

--Incarnation. This one's tricky. The mental estimate is that while it's up, Eclipse uptime goes from 50% to 80% (since it makes Eclipse 4 times longer than noneclipse). That would lead to 0.8*30 + 50% of the rest = 99s uptime out of 180. It's a bit trickier though due to granularity and that you can cast it at different times.

Let's say your normal length for an Eclipse segment is 12s (probably reasonable at starting haste). Then if you pop Inc at the beginning of Eclipse, you get a 24s Eclipse followed by a 6s noneclipse and then are back to normal. The uptime increase is messy though since the total time spent changed. Best estimate to say that in 180s you get those 24 + 50% of the 150s Inc downtime. 99s out of 180.
Say your Eclipse segment is only 10s. Now when you pop it at the beginning, you get a 20s Eclipse, 5s of downtime, and 2.5s of free uptime at the beginning of the next Eclipse. So 22.5/27.5 + 50% of the rest--98.75s out of 180.
If you use it at the beginning of noneclipse--5s of noneclipse, 20s eclipse, and then a 5s noneclipse again, and then a normal 10s Eclipse to get back to where you were. 30s/40s Eclipse uptime, plus half the rest, is 100s out of 180.

So inferring from this, using Inc to skip as much noneclipse as possible is best. Will try to show that more rigorously at some point (and see if DoT timing affects anything majorly, probably not though). But that 80% of 30s from the beginning is a good estimate for now.

Inc+CA: They don't interact, since CA doesn't use Energy. So every 180s you have 15s of CA + 30s of Inc. 15 + 0.8*30 + 50% of the rest = 106.5s out of 180.

Result: Nearly identical performance from Inc and SotF. Choice will be situational (spread DPS vs. timer). Both are a lot more fun than FoN (also more seriously, both probably scale a lot better than FoN since they improve your Eclipse uptime which multiplies your total damage output).

edit: Hmm, Soul of the Forest is going to increase NG uptime while Incarnation won't (or will slightly decrease it). That's getting into a spreadsheet question though.

--------

Questions:
--Does SotF give you 20 energy or set you to 20 energy? i.e. what happens to the few extra energy when you cross 0?
--Check Euphoria behavior. Still limited to 35 Energy, or anytime?
--What direction is the Eclipse arrow facing when CA ends?
--Question from above--nail down DoT refresh mechanics.
--Correct that Lunar Shower no longer gives Energy?
--Confirm that the final Eclipsed nuke refreshes and leaves you with an Eclipsed DoT.
e: -- Does CA trigger Nature's Grace and/or reset Starfall?