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12/09/10, 5:20 AM
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#1
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<Druid Trainer>
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[Resto] 4.2 (Firelands) OLD
OP updated for 4.2 and thread rebooted to clean out old content. Some notes on the update:
--Some item links are being wonky as usual right before at patch. They should work correctly after 4.2 goes live on 6/28, but for now I tried to include the correct item name afterwards.
--New haste breakpoint list added to try to stave off constant questions about this.
--Added some info on new t12 trinkets. These will probably be a point of discussion going forward, but I think the general assessment of Shard/Jaws as BIS is pretty likely to hold. The assessment of Eye might change if we get more information on exactly how the proc works.
--With the nerf to 60s ICD, Tailoring doesn't provide much more Int than other professions. Since the random proc isn't great for healing anyway, it's probably slightly worse than other professions now.
--In general the hierarchy of secondary stats is not totally clear yet and will probably be the topic of a lot of discussion. For now I think the 2005 haste point is very attractive and not too hard to reach in raid gear. Beyond that, mastery and even crit give quite solid throughput now, and Spirit's regen bonus is not overly impressive. But we might need some raid experience to see if we can really abandon Spirit that strongly. It's quite possible that we can, given how much of our regen is Int-based, and now that we have our Innervates all to ourselves.
Last edited by Hamlet : 06/21/11 at 12:58 AM.
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06/20/11, 10:50 PM
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#2
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::stare::
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Old contents have been moved to this thread: [Resto] Cataclysm (Old/4.1)
Hamlet still has some updating/polishing left to do, so please any feedback on the content of the lead post should be PM'd to him directly. Patch is likely to occur on 6/28, but most of the raid-level theoretical discussion has been on 4.2 for quite awhile. It is okay to still discuss raid relevant 4.1 information here until the patch goes live.
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<Nite_Moogle> i miss raiding with carebare :< she makes me feel like i am not the only person that hates everyone
Aldriana: I am an asshole, it just so happens that some of my colleagues are even *bigger* assholes.
[R] [85:Neux:2]: i hear if you die on Good Friday they are going to make it where you can't get rezzed until easter sunday
Khazal: Yeah, I don't know about Magic Rainbow Unicorn Land, but here in Reality, Rhyolith is the worst encounter Blizzard has ever designed.
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06/21/11, 2:06 AM
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#3
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Piston Honda
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About Nature's Bounty, I already recommend it as is, after crit gets doubled, this talents worth is also doubling.
The alternatives:
BotG, as has been discussed, is an extremely mediocre talent, unlikely to account for more then 1% healing per point, and pretty much impossible to have a game impacting difference.
Perseverance is only useful if you need it to live. It definitely has saved my life a few times, on progression, however once you learn a fight, and when to use barkskin you shouldn't need it.
Living Seed's Value will also be doubling. It will be a pretty decent use of points if you do a good amount of tank healing, pretty useless for a raid healer though.
Furor = useless if you're ending fights with mana to spare. First regen talent to drop, but well worth pts if you are using all your mana.
Genesis is great if you don't need mana.
The thing about Nature's Bounty is its worth is higher then its meter healing would indicate, because it IS game impacting, unlike, say BotG. It makes Regrowth worthwhile for use to burn OoC's and a spot heal if needed, whereas without it, we have no 1.5 second "flash heal" in our toolbox worth using. And if its worth using now, as I would argue, its definitely worth using after 4.2 doubles crits worth.
Last edited by Greentouch : 06/21/11 at 3:17 AM.
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All anyone ever needs to know about being a Resto Druid in PVE, complete and up-to-date guide at: Resto Raiding Guide
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06/21/11, 9:25 AM
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#4
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Von Kaiser
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I've also been in favor of increasing regrowth use to refresh Lifebloom as a Raid/AOE healer to be able to get the new Harmony mastery proc (since it's a short cast that won't take away too much from your raid healing). So, if you are using Regrowth once every ~15 to 20 seconds for that purpose (with swiftmend automatically refreshing every other Harmony buff), then Nature's Bounty may be worth picking up. I usually put at least 2 points in Nature's Bounty. We're going to have to see how it really works out in practice, but I'm anticipating Regrowth increasing in usefulness (but still being reliant of Nature's Bounty to make it a worthwhile spell).
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06/21/11, 12:27 PM
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#5
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Glass Joe
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I find that Regrowth is worth using even without an OoC proc to do spot healing. For situations where damage is constant Rejuv is far and away the better spell but if damage is just an one-off and minor (~20k), Rejuv is likely to cause mostly overheal (60-70%+). In this case, Regrowth would be competitive in terms of HPM, moreso after the crit buff. This is assuming you have mana to spare obviously.
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06/21/11, 12:51 PM
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#6
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Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
Gul'dan (EU)
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the problem is, regrowth also triggers nature's grace and you don't always want to trigger it at that time. if you know there is a big burst of damage coming soon, you want to save nature's grace to maximize wild growth and rejuv (and possibly tranq) then.
Originally Posted by Greentouch
About Nature's Bounty, I already recommend it as is, after crit gets doubled, this talents worth is also doubling.
Living Seed's Value will also be doubling. It will be a pretty decent use of points if you do a good amount of tank healing, pretty useless for a raid healer though.
The thing about Nature's Bounty is its worth is higher then its meter healing would indicate, because it IS game impacting, unlike, say BotG. It makes Regrowth worthwhile for use to burn OoC's and a spot heal if needed, whereas without it, we have no 1.5 second "flash heal" in our toolbox worth using. And if its worth using now, as I would argue, its definitely worth using after 4.2 doubles crits worth.
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if you are unable/unwilling to spec out of nature's swiftness and nature's cure, it becomes extremely difficult to find the points for maxed nature's bounty and/or living seed. i have only 3 talent points left for both talents if i am only to use 31 points in the tree. i guess skipping perseverance entirely and going 1/3 living seed and 2/3 nature's bounty is probably the best in that case.
Last edited by Môurn : 06/21/11 at 12:58 PM.
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06/21/11, 3:10 PM
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#7
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Môurn
the problem is, regrowth also triggers nature's grace and you don't always want to trigger it at that time. if you know there is a big burst of damage coming soon, you want to save nature's grace to maximize wild growth and rejuv (and possibly tranq) then.
if you are unable/unwilling to spec out of nature's swiftness and nature's cure, it becomes extremely difficult to find the points for maxed nature's bounty and/or living seed. i have only 3 talent points left for both talents if i am only to use 31 points in the tree. i guess skipping perseverance entirely and going 1/3 living seed and 2/3 nature's bounty is probably the best in that case.
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As to the first, find a good way to track the ICD on NG. It's not like you need to hold it for minutes at a time, you can freely use RG for 45 seconds after you pop NG, and then its doubtful you'll want to hold it for more then 10-30 seconds max anyway. If you keep yourself aware of its ICD its pretty simple to control NG and still get a lot of use from RG.
As to the second, LS is pretty much useless if you mostly raid heal. Now if you do a fair amount of tank healing, its really nice because it salvages some of what would probably be overheal. In which case I'd say to drop the 2 pts you have in genesis or Furor to grab at least 2/3 LS, and you really shouldn't need Nature's Cure for raids as other healers can pick it up at much lower cost.
Genesis is nice for a raid healer, but tanks aren't likely to die because their hots were 4% too weak. Now if they needed a crit flash heal and didn't get one, that could kill them. And 30% of a post 4.2 crit as a seed will be much more significant for a tank healer then 4% to hots.
So in summary, in my opinion NB is a must have for all rdruids in 4.2. LS is a must have for tank healers only.
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All anyone ever needs to know about being a Resto Druid in PVE, complete and up-to-date guide at: Resto Raiding Guide
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06/21/11, 3:37 PM
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#8
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Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
Gul'dan (EU)
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i track the icd of nature's grace with forte xcorcist (there was a fix for it linked somewhere in the old thread). it's fine to alternate then with shard of woe. i was speaking more in hypothetical terms. you don't always want to use regrowth when the situation arises, because it may have repercussions on your planning (especially since we tend to be less than stellar on reactive burst healing, so there is a good argument for planning beforehand). i get what you are saying though.
as to living seed, i think it may be quite a bit more attractive when used with regrowth to maintain lifebloom on the tank and keep the mastery bonus up. i play only 25 man raids and pretty much always raid heal (or heal what is needed), but i could see a 10% living seed being greater than 2% magic damage reduction even for a raid healer.
as to maxing out nature's bounty, what about the idea of every healer being able to dispell. i understand our talent tree being so very bloated, but isn't it worthwhile to have the option of being able to dispell magic. this is again very hypothetical, but perhaps you come to a situation where it is essential for you to dispell because 1-2 of the other healers are dead or lack the mana or whatever.
this is me basically thinking aloud and appreciating your input. i'm a little undecided on my exact spec for firelands.
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06/21/11, 6:13 PM
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#9
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Môurn
i guess skipping perseverance entirely and going 1/3 living seed and 2/3 nature's bounty is probably the best in that case.
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This is what I end up with in my talent spec. It seems to work out okay for me. Then again, I have a strange raiding situation where we sometimes run with as many as 3 resto druids in our 25-man raid, and I still have to be able to heal as the only resto druid on 10-man nights (ie. I have to be able to both raid-heal for 25's and tank heal for 10's), so I tend to do something less specialized to be able to cover all my bases.  I end up needing to keep Nature's Cure, since we do run so druid-heavy in our 25's, and I sometimes have to be able to dispel in 10's as well.
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06/22/11, 5:49 AM
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#10
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Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
Sylvanas (EU)
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Hello, i have some doubts about moonglow talent in 4.2.
I mean is it still worth so much after getting Shard of Woe and Jaws of Defeat ?
Maybe in 25 man content its better to go with Genesis 3/3 and Furor 2/3 or at least Genesis 3/3 and Moonlow 2/3 and not the opposite?
And i cant find any info about 4T12 bonus does it able to trigger second efflorescence when used by swiftmend on second target?
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06/22/11, 6:20 AM
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#11
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Von Kaiser
Troll Druid
Chamber of Aspects (EU)
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Originally Posted by Môurn
as to maxing out nature's bounty, what about the idea of every healer being able to dispell. i understand our talent tree being so very bloated, but isn't it worthwhile to have the option of being able to dispell magic. this is again very hypothetical, but perhaps you come to a situation where it is essential for you to dispell because 1-2 of the other healers are dead or lack the mana or whatever.
this is me basically thinking aloud and appreciating your input. i'm a little undecided on my exact spec for firelands.
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I think the key point here is that it depends on your healing team, and on particular fights. I used to have Nature's Cure, but one or two patches ago I removed it in favour of Nature's Bounty and it hasn't been a problem - I asked our other two healers (priest and pally) and they were fine to handle the dispels themselves. In other healing set-ups or maybe in 25s your mileage may vary.
I'm also expecting that when we get to Sinestra it'll be a lot more important for me to take the talent, but I'll cross that dragon when we come to it. As to Firelands... well, I guess we can only wait and see.
I see your point about having dispel in case the other healers die, but in about 90% of cases, if one of the other healers dies in my team, it's pretty much over anyway - extra dispellers or no. 
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06/22/11, 2:33 PM
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#12
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<Druid Trainer>
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Originally Posted by Dulkinis
Hello, i have some doubts about moonglow talent in 4.2.
I mean is it still worth so much after getting Shard of Woe and Jaws of Defeat ?
Maybe in 25 man content its better to go with Genesis 3/3 and Furor 2/3 or at least Genesis 3/3 and Moonlow 2/3 and not the opposite?
And i cant find any info about 4T12 bonus does it able to trigger second efflorescence when used by swiftmend on second target?
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Moonglow is still good even if you have both trinkets. If things some how turn out so that our mana situation is really in good shape, you might consider dropping it to free up more points for mediocre throughput talents like NB, but that seems unlikely as it gives quite a lot of mana.
The 4T12 doesn't give an extra Efflorescence. I should probably add that to the OP since people will ask about it a lot.
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To talk about stats for a moment, something I was thinking about while going over gear:
Mastery and crit are both decent throughput, with mastery being a bit better numerically (and having the other advantage of being more consistent). Also, that assumes 100% Harmony uptime, so in practice they're even slightly closer.
Point being, if you favor mastery over Spirit, logically you're very likely to favor crit over Spirit too. To be honest I won't be surprised if, when everything settles out, Spirit becomes the most common dump stat for top Druids. Mana is going to be a lot nicer this tier than in the previous tier:
--Most of our regen is Int-based (Replenishment, Revitalize, 2T12, and Innervate). These things all add up to quite a bit more than our Spirit regen. And we're about to jump up a whole tier of Int.
--Our Innervates will be only for ourselves.
--We're going to be using Fiery Quintessence and/or Rune of Zeth, which have 60 or 90 second Int activations that make those self-Innervates quite a bit better.
--The only two trinkets better than Fiery/Rune are Jaws and Shard, and if you have both of those, you're not going to have mana issues anyway.
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06/22/11, 4:11 PM
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#13
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Von Kaiser
Tauren Druid
Minahonda (EU)
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Originally Posted by Hamlet
--We're going to be using Fiery Quintessence and/or Rune of Zeth, which have 60 or 90 second Int activations that make those self-Innervates quite a bit better.
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Fiery Quintessence doesn't share cooldown with Rune of Zeth, but when you use one, a 30s-cooldown is placed on the other.
(From tests in PTR a week ago, will test again when I'm home)
e: Actually, it's a 25s cooldown
Last edited by copialinex : 06/22/11 at 6:04 PM.
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BPT author.
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06/22/11, 4:22 PM
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#14
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<Druid Trainer>
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Good to know. I was thinking about putting something into TC to make it assume trinket activations are synced with Innervate to see how much that helps regen.
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06/23/11, 12:55 AM
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#15
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
The Maelstrom (EU)
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Originally Posted by Hamlet
--Most of our regen is Int-based (Replenishment, Revitalize, 2T12, and Innervate). These things all add up to quite a bit more than our Spirit regen. And we're about to jump up a whole tier of Int.
--Our Innervates will be only for ourselves.
--We're going to be using Fiery Quintessence and/or Rune of Zeth, which have 60 or 90 second Int activations that make those self-Innervates quite a bit better.
--The only two trinkets better than Fiery/Rune are Jaws and Shard, and if you have both of those, you're not going to have mana issues anyway.
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- 2T12 is not Int-based.
- I don't understand how it is a buff. We had cross Innervates this tier and basically lose 50% of the value in 4.2. We also lose half of Mana Tide.
- Personally, I'm not going to use weak throughput trinkets and wonder who would.
- Why would anyone prefer spirit or crit passive bonus over passive intellect from Cho'gall trinket? I consider Intellect on use effects on those two very weak, and to be fair compared to NG and SoW they are. If you claim that mana isn't going to be a problem (which I doubt, after seeing some of encounters on heroic mode), then surely you'd want to get a strong throughput trinket like Fall of Mortality instead of playing a game with your Innervate.
I don't know where from people get the 'we won't need mana in Firelands' thing. There are encounters that would require A LOT of raid healing (Beth'tilac, Staghelm and Ragnaros come on mind). I was ending up doing 25-27k hps and still falling behind on healing. There's no way you will be fine on mana, not until you are geared in 391 ilvl or the encounters are nerfed.
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