Elitist Jerks [Resto] 4.2 (Firelands) OLD

 08/26/11, 5:36 PM #181 s4ti Glass Joe   MartĂ*n Undead Priest   Gorgonnash (EU) can someone please give me a quick hint, what i'm missing in the following calculation. 916 haste rating for 5th tick of Rejuvenation with 5% haste buff (moon, shadow, shaman) 1% haste = 128.05 so 916 haste rating + 5% (aka 5 x 128.05 haste rating = 640.25 haste rating) = haste rating needed for 5th tick without the 5% raidbuff. 916 + 640.25 = 1556,25 haste rating so why is the cap for the 5th tick without 5% haste at 1602 haste rating? where i'm missing something?
08/26/11, 6:45 PM   #182
Sasazuka
Von Kaiser

Tauren Druid

Frostwolf
 The first extra tick for any HoT or DoT is granted when Haste% is half of 1/base_ticks, and subsequent extra ticks come at intervals of 1/base_ticks. For example, Rejuvenation has 4 base ticks, therefore extra ticks will come at 12.5%, 37.5% and 62.5%. Lifebloom has 10 base ticks, therefore extra ticks will come at 5%, 15%, 25%, etc. Haste bonuses from 5% Raid Haste Buff (e.g. Mind Quickening) and 3% from Dark Intent stack multiplicatively. In the case of Rejuvenation, 12.5% haste is required for the first tick, but with 5% Haste Buff, 7.14% haste is required instead of the expected 7.5%, as 1.0714 x 1.05 = 1.125, and with Dark Intent you only need 4.02% Haste, as 1.0402 x 1.03 x 1.05 = 1.125.
Source

Alternatively, you can look at TreeCalcs and the formula that it uses. Or here is equally good. There was some off by one issues discussed much earlier but those were rounding issues and I believe your example is more of a additive/multiplicative issue.

 08/30/11, 5:04 AM #183 Kjeldorian Von Kaiser   Sephinia Tauren Druid   Illidan Regarding the recent change to the 4p12. "The radius of effect of the Restoration druid 4-piece tier-12 set has been increased." I had the set proc at 12 yds but no success at 15 yds. Has anyone else been able to determine the change? Details: Used DBM range indicator at 10, 11, 15 yds to determine maximum range for set proc. No firebloom procs at 15 yds but firebloom procs a little past the 11 yds. Last edited by Kjeldorian : 08/30/11 at 5:18 AM.
08/31/11, 8:35 PM   #185
Tellervo
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

Saurfang
 Originally Posted by Daisil Tree of Life is a fantastic tool for the restoration druid especially in t12 because it can also be part of your mana regen cooldowns. On any given fight, one or more of my Treeâ€™s I will slow roll lifeblooms and clearcast instant regrowths for mana efficient healing, as well as to utilize my t12 2pc regen portion.
I remember reading something about reduced proc rate during ToL, and someone mentioned that 2T12 set bonus actually procs *less* during ToL. Has anyone actually figured out how the set bonus work?

08/31/11, 8:41 PM   #186
Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>

Tauren Druid

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Tellervo I remember reading something about reduced proc rate during ToL, and someone mentioned that 2T12 set bonus actually procs *less* during ToL. Has anyone actually figured out how the set bonus work?
Not that I not know of. Assuming you get the same procs per second during Tree as you do out of it seems to give a pretty good result, but I don't know what mechanic causes this to happen (reduced proc rate, short ICD, etc). If it's actually a reduced proc that would be significant, since your regen would actually go down in Tree if you didn't use LB much. But this is a huge pain to test in-game.

 09/01/11, 1:24 AM #187 Pleinair93 Von Kaiser   fracture Worgen Druid   Kargath There is no ICD in tree form for 2pc, but from what has been gathered before(not sure if it was posted in this or the gear thread) the proc rate is definitely reduced but you should see similar return as you are hitting more people with lifebloom if you so chose to use lifebloom in tree form.
 09/01/11, 10:24 AM #188 Doomgaze Glass Joe   Doomgazee Night Elf Druid   Bleeding Hollow I've been working on an addon that I plan to release soon, still working on the interface. Anyways, I finished all the math calculations, and learned a few things about spells, some that aren't reflected in treecalcs spreadsheet. First, the direct heal portion of tranquility benefits from harmony as a hot would. This is easily tested and verified without having to shuffle around talents. I'm not sure if treecalcs accounts for this or not, but I figured it was worth mentioning because some people may be unaware. Tranq direct heals do not give the Harmony buff, but they benefit from it, so be sure you cast a direct heal just before you tranq. Another thing I've discovered is a bug with Gift of the Earthmother. In treecalcs, it has a ~1% adjustment to account for the healing observered. This is correct if you have 3/3 Improved Rejuvenation. If you have less ranks of Imp Rejuv, the error is less. If you don't have imp rejuv at all, then the direct bonus heal from rejuv via GoTEM is dead on with the #'s you'd expect. Weird bug, and not really useful knowledge, but anyways. Another thing I've noticed is the instant heal from GoTEM does NOT benefit from Genesis. TreeCalcs spreadsheet is showing that it does, but a simple respec into and out of genesis will show that the instant heal amount does not change regardless of having Genesis or not. Yet another thing regarding the instant gotem heal, it does NOT benefit from mastery rating at all. The harmony buff has no effect on it. I believe that's all I've discovered for now. I hope to have the addon finished soon, and I think it's gonna be a very usefull tool in determining which specs/stats/gear give the highest healing output.
 09/01/11, 11:05 AM #189 Erdluf Great Tiger   Erdluf Night Elf Druid   Echo Isles Doomgaze: TC knows that Tranquility doesn't proc Harmony. It doesn't matter for the rotation, because the TC rotation doesn't include Tranquility. You will see the Tranquility scaling numbers change (if you're using them) when you change Harmony uptime. Some questions. 1) Was all of your testing with the Rejuv Glyph? 2) Mastery: If Euphoria gives me 20% extra healing when active, then my Rejuv ticks will be 20% stronger. I think you are saying that the GotEM proc is unchanged (as if you had made the cast without Euphoria). You aren't saying that GotEM just doesn't double-dip Mastery. Is that correct? 3) Did you test any of the GotEM Lifebloom numbers?
 09/01/11, 11:23 AM #190 Nyn Glass Joe   Nynsuna Tauren Druid   Cenarion Circle I have a quick question for Hamlet: In your post about the whole regen-throughput tradeoff, in evaluating the ember vs. revitalizing meta, did you consider the 54 int for 54 spirit trade-off? Since switching spirit for int is negative in terms of gains, I was wondering if that had any sort of stronger effect on the outcome...
09/01/11, 11:35 AM   #191
Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>

Tauren Druid

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Nyn I have a quick question for Hamlet: In your post about the whole regen-throughput tradeoff, in evaluating the ember vs. revitalizing meta, did you consider the 54 int for 54 spirit trade-off? Since switching spirit for int is negative in terms of gains, I was wondering if that had any sort of stronger effect on the outcome...
Quick answer: yes. Got those numbers by swapping the gems entirely in my TC setup. Didn't take into account any prereq changes though.

---

I'd always meant to talk about that regen/throughput most more on this thread, since it showed some interesting things for Druids. (This is the post we're talking about: http://elitistjerks.com/blogs/1152-h...oices_healers/ )

Erdluf's comment brought up something which we'd talking about a little ever since the beta, I think, but have never had a big discussion about: casting Nourish is not particularly better than casting nothing. In fact, if you view mana purely as a resource enabling you to cast more Rejuvs (as is often a reasonable model), then casting Nourish is actually worse than casting nothing, because it's less efficient than Rejuv. Now, you still would want to use Nourish if it's more effective in some way, but I don't even know when that would be, given how weak Nourish is. People use it a lot to refresh Lifebloom, but remember that it's both longer and more expensive than simply casting Lifebloom--so you should only do that when the Nourish heal itself actually matters.

The only complicating factor now is Harmony. You still want to use Nourish if it prevents Harmony downtime, and the interaction between the 10s LB refresh and the 15s Swiftmend is kind of awkward.

---

Doomgaze: Yeah, I always knew I was missing something in the way buffs affected the GotEM proc, since I had a little fudge factor and never went back and looked. Can you post any exact numbers from the tests you did with/without various talents?

09/01/11, 1:25 PM   #192
Erdluf
Great Tiger

Night Elf Druid

Echo Isles
 Originally Posted by Hamlet Now, you still would want to use Nourish if it's more effective in some way, but I don't even know when that would be, given how weak Nourish is.
Using TC 110806 (no SoW or Jaws, either of which would skew these results):

Ignoring Mastery benefits (this Nourish doesn't increase your Mastery uptime), ignoring cast times, and assuming no overheal:

Nourish vs. Rejuv

Nourish is higher HPM than Rejuv when Nourish effectively extends 3-stack Lifebloom uptime by two ticks (and is about even at one tick).

Refreshing Lifebloom

Nourish costs 43% more mana than Lifebloom
Nourish heals for 39% of a full-duration Lifebloom*3 stack (Living Seed would increase this, but it would still be below 43% at normal crit rates).

If your current refresh ends up getting perfectly refreshed in about 10s (just before its last tick), it is better to refresh with Lifebloom. (100% healed) / (100% mana cost) is more efficient than (100% + 39% healed) / (143% mana cost).

However, suppose you typically refresh Lifebloom about 1s early, so this refresh only "lives" for 90% of its normal duration. Now we compare

Refresh with Lifebloom: 90% H / 100% mana = 90% efficiency
Refresh with Nourish: (90%+39% H) / (143% M) = 0.902 efficiency

If your Lb refreshes are perfectly timed (or if you often allow Lb to bloom), refreshing with Lb is the mana-efficient choice. If you tend to refresh a bit early, refreshing with Nourish is the mana-efficient choice.

Finally
Having said all that, these HPM differences are small. The bigger considerations will often be your Harmony situation, and what you have time to cast.

 09/01/11, 2:11 PM #193 • Hamlet     Hamlet Tauren Druid   Mal'Ganis The problem is, when you use Nourish to refresh LB at a pre-planned time on a tank (e.g. you start casting because your LB has 2-3 seconds left and for no other reason), it's going to have a high chance of overheal. So I think the "free" combination of Nourish heal and LB refresh has always been a bit illusory, because you don't gain anything if you throw Nourish on a full-HP tank just to refresh. I really haven't healed enough since Harmony went in to say how it feels in practice now. If your only direct heals are Swiftmends, you basically have to use Nourish all the time to keep Harmony up (because the 15s-spaced Swiftmends really don't help much). But as long you're throwing at least one big heal between each Swiftmend (which you probably are due to Clearcasts?), you might not have to worry about it.
09/02/11, 4:34 AM   #194
Dharmakaya
Glass Joe

Tauren Shaman

Aegwynn
 Originally Posted by Hamlet The problem is, when you use Nourish to refresh LB at a pre-planned time on a tank (e.g. you start casting because your LB has 2-3 seconds left and for no other reason), it's going to have a high chance of overheal. So I think the "free" combination of Nourish heal and LB refresh has always been a bit illusory, because you don't gain anything if you throw Nourish on a full-HP tank just to refresh. I really haven't healed enough since Harmony went in to say how it feels in practice now. If your only direct heals are Swiftmends, you basically have to use Nourish all the time to keep Harmony up (because the 15s-spaced Swiftmends really don't help much). But as long you're throwing at least one big heal between each Swiftmend (which you probably are due to Clearcasts?), you might not have to worry about it.
Clearcasting isn't dependable enough to count on to always be up when you need to refresh Harmony in between Swiftmends. From my experience, it seems it's easier to just assume you'll have to refresh LB and Harmony with a Nourish and then just count yourself lucky if you get a Clearcasting proc in between your Swiftmends.

09/02/11, 2:28 PM   #195
Doomgaze
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

Bleeding Hollow
 Originally Posted by Erdluf 1) Was all of your testing with the Rejuv Glyph?
Yes.

 Originally Posted by Erdluf 2) Mastery: If Euphoria gives me 20% extra healing when active, then my Rejuv ticks will be 20% stronger. I think you are saying that the GotEM proc is unchanged (as if you had made the cast without Euphoria). You aren't saying that GotEM just doesn't double-dip Mastery. Is that correct?
You mean Harmony? Isn't Euphoria our old mastery? Anyways, I'm saying that the GoTEM proc is the same regardless of Harmony status, AND Mastery rating, meaning it gets no benefit from Mastery in any way. Easily tested by popping a mastery trinket, such as Moonwell Chalice from the molent front dailys.

Example, with weapon and cape off (to remove possible int procs), my rejuv ticks for 3137, the gotem proc is 2384. Casting a direct heal, gaining Harmony, and then casting rejuv, the tick is for 3557, the gotem proc is still 2384. If I pop a mastery trinket, refresh harmony, then cast rejuv, the ticks will be a bit higher cuz of the extra mastery, but the gotem proc is still 2384.

 Originally Posted by Erdluf 3) Did you test any of the GotEM Lifebloom numbers?
I believe I did, and found them to be consistent with what the spreadsheet shows, specifically it's a multiplicative bonus if that's what you were asking.

 Elitist Jerks [Resto] 4.2 (Firelands) OLD