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Old 01/15/13, 11:36 AM   #406
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Nondescript comment from GC that Resto healing will come up across the board:
PTR Class and Set Bonus Issues - Forums - World of Warcraft


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Old 01/16/13, 2:50 PM   #407
oopsminded
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Neptulon (EU)
Originally Posted by Hobnaker View Post
How do you (or others) feel about going for the ~3k Haste breakpoint for challenge modes?
That's what I did. Well, in fact you need to be a bit over 3043 as the normalization will penalize you. Mastery wasn't the issue. Spirit/regen was.

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Old 01/16/13, 4:25 PM   #408
 Hamlet
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Mal'Ganis
5.2 and other notes:
--Displacer Beast is a lot like Wild Charge if you need instant mobility now. Longer cooldown, but more flexible.
--Can someone check whether CW gets extra ticks from haste (should be same a Regrowth, 4717 + buff). I heard it doesn't, but I keep forgetting. Otherwise the description doesn't really change, I guess you'd take it if you really want an efficient 30s cooldown HoT rather than NS, which is still dubious.
--SotF to 75% in 5.2. Maybe work into the description that the time to take is fights with steady raid damage through the entire fight. And also that it much better with 4T14 than without.
--I'd put Dream of Cenarius on "skip," I can't really think of what Resto would want it for. Maybe a note that HotW is particularly good in challenge. I'd also somehow indicate that in general HotW is a little better than NV.
--I'd say Glyph of LB and Glyph of RG are basically always used, the most questionable is glyph of WG. It's optional in 10m (though there's little better) and bad in challenge modes (where Rebirth or Stampeding Roar are better).
--Remember to update WG with SotF breaks. Delete 13th tick, 14th tick at 2109, 15th at 5437, 16th at 8728.
--Given recent trends, the only line I'd highlight is Tranquility at 3043. Maybe WG at 6652, but see next comment.
--I'd reword breakpoint advice to say that while we should always have 3043, 6652 is a neutral proposition at best. If it's convenient you can pick up, but if it's equally convenient there's nothing wrong with just staying at 3043. Make clear that you don't want to be in no-mans-land in the middle.
--I'd delete the line about shooting for high breakpoints if you use SotF, that's still not too great.
--I'd delete the sentence about favoring crit when using direct heals. Given how marginal a benefit it is and the fact that it only applies if you're not using Glyph of Regrowth, it's probably misleading.
--I've never liked the "get comfortable with your regen then favor throughput" mentality. If it were me I'd try to express the tradeoff without implying that the first gearing goal is to heavily fill up Spirit to a certain vague threshold before doing other things. Personally, my editorial slant would be to think of the throughput stats as the default and the Spirit as a sacrifice that's available if you need to make it.
--Really the goal is just to have mastery/X in every slot since the other stats can be pushed around with reforging however you want.
--4T14: the set bonus is quite good even without SotF.
--Trinkets: best two are Heroic Spirits and Seal. At the normal tier it's still Spirits and Seal, with Relic pretty close and Figurine and Heartwarmer a little behind (on-use Spirit is a bit inefficient). Spirits and Relic have the advantage that the Int is uniform instead of proc, and Seal has the advantage that the Spirit can be reforged to mastery.
(Note: TreeCalcs has Light of the Cosmos and Relic of Yu'lon giving Int, which it shouldn't).
--I'd nix the idea of Spirit gemming and just favor Int and mastery (point out that Int/mastery are nearly identical in value, people who really care can consult treecalcs etc.). Assuming Int for convenience (it will be better more often than mastery) just say Brilliant/Artful/Purified are the standard. Reckless if needed for 3043, although reforging crit/spirit to meet it is better than regemming mastery.
--It makes no sense to favor Revitalizing meta unless you're also favoring straight blue gemming (Sparkling/Zen etc., which you shouldn't be). Say Burning is the meta, Revitalizing is an option if you're gemming straight Spirit otherwise (which is unusual), and Ember is downright bad.
--Can mention Windsong as a cheap option, it's not terrible at least.
--Similarly, however you handle the Spirit gemming discussion, I'd nix any recommendation for Spirit options that are worse than the 2:1 ratio provided by gems. i.e. Chest enchant and Darkglow, and that Alchemy comment. Just omit or say not to use them.
--Add a note to Lifebloom about the convenience of being able to move it around with the Glyph. Once you get in the habit it can be a handy way to move a HoT to people in response to some boss ability, or just top people up cheaply during lulls.
--I'd probably reword HT to note that it's almost entirely supplanted by Glyphed Regrowth. Pretty much the only time I can think of to use HT is if you're cancel-casting on a tank (in challenge or something) and the short cast time of RG is inconvenient, but even that's kind of weak.
--Similarly, probably should specify that even though RG is inefficient (which it is), it is pretty much the all-purpose workhorse for any direct healing.
--Same note for clearcasting entry--no particular reason to clearcast an HT.
--ToL also has a handy use for heavy tank healing, when you're in challenge modes or the like. Since you're mainly using RG anyway, and ToL makes them instant, you can hover over the tank and just hit him instantly whenever he takes damage, rather than having to chaincast and cancel. Both less overhealing and better reaction times while it's up.
--Wild Mushroom. Will worry about details once we see final implementation. For now that main point is that they're designed to be left in place and then used occasionally when they're needed, either under the raid if it's stationary and there's an occasional raidwide attack, or on the tank alone as a very large emergency heal.
--Still says Living Seed only triggers on physical attacks. That's out of date, right? Also "Swiftmed, Noursih, Healing Touch and Regrwoth" :P .
--Symbiosis notes: specify that people should check the tooltips since not all of them match the native class's version. On the Druid side, some specific ones are that D.Circle only lets you go to the linked Warlock's Circle, and Deterrence doesn't allow healing. The best general-purposes defensive cooldowns are IBF and Fortifying Brew, or Ice Block if appropriate.


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Old 01/16/13, 5:08 PM   #409
 Hamlet
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Mal'Ganis
PTR buff is 10% flat healing.


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Old 01/17/13, 4:34 AM   #410
Satanicway
Glass Joe
 
Troll Druid
 
Tol Barad
Good buff for us, 10% is alot when applied to all our healing spells.


Now a theorycraft question, how much will crit and mastery worth now?
As im seeing on PTR Mastery has no effect on the bonus healing from Mushrooms, but they can crit, and heal for the double amount of the bonus too.

With this crit seems WAY better for mushrooms.

Right now, all of your overhealings from rejuvenate contributes to the mushrooms, does not mattering the range, making it WAY better then if it was only overhealing done on the area.

If this stays like this, i think that WM:B will be a great healing spell, with great HP/MANA and good burst aoe in stacked situations. But also GREAT at healing small groups, or even as a tank emergency heal, because if less targets are healed it heals for insane amounts.

So the question is... how much we will value WM:B? And how much this will change the balance from Mastery to Crit?

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Old 01/17/13, 5:24 AM   #411
Numiro
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Druid
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Satanicway View Post
Good buff for us, 10% is alot when applied to all our healing spells.


Now a theorycraft question, how much will crit and mastery worth now?
As im seeing on PTR Mastery has no effect on the bonus healing from Mushrooms, but they can crit, and heal for the double amount of the bonus too.

With this crit seems WAY better for mushrooms.

Right now, all of your overhealings from rejuvenate contributes to the mushrooms, does not mattering the range, making it WAY better then if it was only overhealing done on the area.

If this stays like this, i think that WM:B will be a great healing spell, with great HP/MANA and good burst aoe in stacked situations. But also GREAT at healing small groups, or even as a tank emergency heal, because if less targets are healed it heals for insane amounts.

So the question is... how much we will value WM:B? And how much this will change the balance from Mastery to Crit?
My current in game hp is 401k, rejuvenation does 85~k hps for me, say it hits 1 person to simply things, you're then spending 4 GCD's for 400k (~90k hps), Shrooms are good enough but not better then that, I'll have to wait and see for the mana cost, I'm not on the PTR.

What's interesting is if mastery doubledips or where mastery applies, if it applies before shrooms (on rejuvenation overheal) all you get is faster shrooms, further diminishing the value of crit/haste/mastery, if it applies after you get crazy strong mushrooms it puts it on the border to OP for mastery only.

To clarify, the value of the stats won't go down at all, the only thing that could be interesting is if mastery doubledips, making mastery even more favoured then it is now.

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Old 01/17/13, 9:04 AM   #412
 Hamlet
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Mal'Ganis
I think the bonus healing does benefit from both mastery and the new 10% bonus (and crit). It's not really double-dipping--there's a cap on how much they can charge and so if you regularly use it at cap, the size only scales once with crit/mastery. It shouldn't change our stats valuations much.


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Old 01/17/13, 9:10 AM   #413
Satanicway
Glass Joe
 
Troll Druid
 
Tol Barad
Numiro:

Remember that its ALL rejuvenations ticking. And it does not care about the range that the player with your rejuvenation is from the mushrooms.
So every time there will be AOE damage, you just start pre-hotting, and mushrooms will top REALLY FAST.

In my experience, with 7 rejuvenations, the mushrooms will top by the time the first reju is ending.

There is no 3 GCD to heal, because you will place the mushrooms when you have 3 GCD to spare, since they are 1 sec GCDs only, this will not be that hard.

I already said that Mastery does not seems to apply. It only applies to the base healing, not to the bonus from Reju overhealing. But crit seems to be doubling both parts of the heal, so crit is WAY better then mastery for mushrooms because of this.

Now, mastery does not seems to doubledip. And the time that mushrooms takes to go full is really small with 4+ rejuvenations, and it can be placed way ahead of time so increasing the speed of then getting to full does not really seems to be that good ATM.

Now, please explain me how the value of certain stats cannot INCREASE, if mushrooms become a great part of our healing, and it became affected WAY more by crit then by mastery. (Like 1% mastery will give it ~0.15% plus healing, but a 1% of crit, will give you like ~0.8%.)

So either you do the proper math, or do not assume something as true, without any testing.

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Old 01/17/13, 9:13 AM   #414
Satanicway
Glass Joe
 
Troll Druid
 
Tol Barad
Originally Posted by Hamlet View Post
I think the bonus healing does benefit from both mastery and the new 10% bonus (and crit). It's not really double-dipping--there's a cap on how much they can charge and so if you regularly use it at cap, the size only scales once with crit/mastery. It shouldn't change our stats valuations much.
Are the bonus part receiving bonus from Mastery?

In my experience on PTR it seemed to affect only the base heal from mushrooms, wile the bonus from reju overhealing being flat, and receiving no increases from a increased mastery, but i may be wrong at that.

If someone have further tested this with gem swapping and elixirs, please enlighten us.

What im sure of, is that it can crit, and the fact that it caps really fast with 4+ targets of reju.

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Old 01/17/13, 10:19 AM   #415
 Hamlet
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Mal'Ganis
I remember charging up to a max mushroom naked (51k stored in the buff) and popping for 65k non-crit. To me, that seemed like 51k +10% (Naturalist) +10% (Mastery) + base heal. You can try to confirm in more detail though.

Yes, you can cap it pretty fast by spamming out 5-6 full overheal Rejuvs on different targets. But first of all, even then, that means you're waiting something like 20 seconds after you start planting to cast all the Rejuvs, wait for them to tick, and pop the mushrooms--not exactly something you can do reactively. And it's not like you can do this regularly--all told you've spent about 60-70k mana on it.


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Old 01/17/13, 2:44 PM   #416
Akusei
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Frostmane
Is it just me or does the thought of intentionally trying to fill mushrooms seem asinine?

Sure, it's it's a good idea to go ahead and math out the quickest route to filling up the mushrooms and how much potential they'll do but it seems like the math is showing that it's a bad idea.

I wish they would go with the "all over healing" model to further impress upon everyone (this is my assumption of their intended model) they want you to put down mushrooms, heal as normal, wait for them to passively fill, and pop them at the right time...possibly in conjunction with your raid being coordinated enough to stack near/on them...and make the 3 gcds you invested earlier and all the over healing you did as a result of being (unintentionally?) sniped do something worthwhile.

The prospect of wanting to waste healing in order to get it in a burst effect will probably incur a backlash of a nerf in either efficiency of filling it or CD on the bloom.

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Old 01/17/13, 8:57 PM   #417
P_H
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Whisperwind
In my wish-filled dreamland, I think Mushrooms would be less clunky and awkward with two changes. First, and I think this is actually reasonable, placing Mushrooms shouldn't trigger a GCD, but popping them should. Second, and I think this is less likely to ever happen, it would be nice if they collected charge before being placed. It's bad enough that they're stationary, but then have to be filled? They're immediately effectively useless for many fights.

They just seem to require a ridiculous amount of planning and forethought for relatively little reward. It's like a Lightwell, only without everything that makes it useful.

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Old 01/18/13, 4:46 AM   #418
Numiro
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Druid
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Satanicway View Post
Numiro:

Remember that its ALL rejuvenations ticking. And it does not care about the range that the player with your rejuvenation is from the mushrooms.
So every time there will be AOE damage, you just start pre-hotting, and mushrooms will top REALLY FAST.

In my experience, with 7 rejuvenations, the mushrooms will top by the time the first reju is ending.

There is no 3 GCD to heal, because you will place the mushrooms when you have 3 GCD to spare, since they are 1 sec GCDs only, this will not be that hard.

I already said that Mastery does not seems to apply. It only applies to the base healing, not to the bonus from Reju overhealing. But crit seems to be doubling both parts of the heal, so crit is WAY better then mastery for mushrooms because of this.

Now, mastery does not seems to doubledip. And the time that mushrooms takes to go full is really small with 4+ rejuvenations, and it can be placed way ahead of time so increasing the speed of then getting to full does not really seems to be that good ATM.

Now, please explain me how the value of certain stats cannot INCREASE, if mushrooms become a great part of our healing, and it became affected WAY more by crit then by mastery. (Like 1% mastery will give it ~0.15% plus healing, but a 1% of crit, will give you like ~0.8%.)

So either you do the proper math, or do not assume something as true, without any testing.
I just simply did the math on if they were worth dropping mid fight or not.

Mastery will give them the flat bonus that they give all heal or nothing (currently doubt they'll doubledip so nothing), unlikely that they can crit since that'd make crit doubledip and haste doesn't increase the healing of the shrooms. This is my speculation of how they'd work out because nothing else makes sense, perhaps the crit yes, but that'd probably make it broken (800k aoe heal is better then monks revival in most cases, seems fair when we have the best raid wide cooldowns AND are going to be even if not better then all other healers on sustained healing next patch.)

It just doesn't make sense to put our sustained healing that high and giving us another raid wide cooldown. You have to remember that 400k hp is barely even noticable in a heavy aoe burst so they'd be used on single target or as a flat panic heal, think healthstones.

Originally Posted by Akusei View Post
Is it just me or does the thought of intentionally trying to fill mushrooms seem asinine?

Sure, it's it's a good idea to go ahead and math out the quickest route to filling up the mushrooms and how much potential they'll do but it seems like the math is showing that it's a bad idea.

I wish they would go with the "all over healing" model to further impress upon everyone (this is my assumption of their intended model) they want you to put down mushrooms, heal as normal, wait for them to passively fill, and pop them at the right time...possibly in conjunction with your raid being coordinated enough to stack near/on them...and make the 3 gcds you invested earlier and all the over healing you did as a result of being (unintentionally?) sniped do something worthwhile.

The prospect of wanting to waste healing in order to get it in a burst effect will probably incur a backlash of a nerf in either efficiency of filling it or CD on the bloom.
I agree with you, that's why I did the HPS calculation of the shrooms a while back, assuming hp doesn't increase without a sp/mastery increase we'll always use shrooms as we did with the old shrooms, except that they are healing alot more this time around. It's a weird mechanic on a druid yes, but it brings us in line with the other weird mechanics on healers.

To clarify: I'm seriously doubting Blizzard is going to keep the crit, it doesn't make sense that they put so much value in to crit that we probably end up stacking it because one single spell doubledips from it, (1,4% haste = 1% crit in ratings value, 1,25% mastery = 1% crit, with this change you'd be looking at more then 1% increase from 1% crit though, further confusing for new druids which in turn is going to bring us even less resto druids, guess I can be happy because I'll be unique in 5.3 when they nerf druids again, yay.

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Old 01/18/13, 5:46 AM   #419
Hamsda
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Goblin Priest
 
Mannoroth (EU)
Tbh I don't think the mushrooms "double dip" in any way or form, even if crit AND mastery would apply to them.
They will only accumulate additional healing from overheal, so those reju crits or mastery would normally just go to waste and wouldn't give any real healing. So the mushrooms do not really double dip if they were to scale with crit and mastery, just because their throughput is not increased by the crit and mastery scaling on the rejus but rather their "charge time".

I do not play a druid myself, but 2 main problems I see with their current healing (aside from a flat out throughput problem, but that will hopefully be fixed with the 10% bonus) are on one hand their heals being "sniped" by direct heals and resulting in more overheal because most fights are not like WoE Heroic and on the other hand not having a shorter than tranqu cooldown for aoe/burst healing (granted, ToL is pretty good, but needs some planning beforehand to get the hots rolling).

The new mushrooms can help with those problems. Maybe not perfectly, but its a start. They will put the otherwise sniped heal to a good use and will allow for a short burst aoe heal with their "cooldown" being the time they need to accumulate healing from rejus.
But they still have 2 problems: they are VERY static, so won't fit every fights needs, but some foresight and raid-yelling might help with this. And they are better in 10 man than in 25 man, even though druids are in a better spot in 10 than in 25 in my opinion.
Maybe let them heal for a percentage of the druids hp on everyone, not spread the heal. They would need to scale differently of course, say 5% per mushroom and scales up to 15% with a good amount of reju overheal. That would result in a burst 45% heal for the entire raid if the mushrooms are charged and won't be totally broken (just place 3 mushrooms and explode them instantly for 3*20% or something ridiculous if they don't spread their healing).

There are only 10 types of people... those who understand binary and those who don't.

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Old 01/18/13, 8:26 AM   #420
Numiro
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Druid
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Hamsda View Post
Tbh I don't think the mushrooms "double dip" in any way or form, even if crit AND mastery would apply to them.
They will only accumulate additional healing from overheal, so those reju crits or mastery would normally just go to waste and wouldn't give any real healing. So the mushrooms do not really double dip if they were to scale with crit and mastery, just because their throughput is not increased by the crit and mastery scaling on the rejus but rather their "charge time".

I do not play a druid myself, but 2 main problems I see with their current healing (aside from a flat out throughput problem, but that will hopefully be fixed with the 10% bonus) are on one hand their heals being "sniped" by direct heals and resulting in more overheal because most fights are not like WoE Heroic and on the other hand not having a shorter than tranqu cooldown for aoe/burst healing (granted, ToL is pretty good, but needs some planning beforehand to get the hots rolling).

The new mushrooms can help with those problems. Maybe not perfectly, but its a start. They will put the otherwise sniped heal to a good use and will allow for a short burst aoe heal with their "cooldown" being the time they need to accumulate healing from rejus.
But they still have 2 problems: they are VERY static, so won't fit every fights needs, but some foresight and raid-yelling might help with this. And they are better in 10 man than in 25 man, even though druids are in a better spot in 10 than in 25 in my opinion.
Maybe let them heal for a percentage of the druids hp on everyone, not spread the heal. They would need to scale differently of course, say 5% per mushroom and scales up to 15% with a good amount of reju overheal. That would result in a burst 45% heal for the entire raid if the mushrooms are charged and won't be totally broken (just place 3 mushrooms and explode them instantly for 3*20% or something ridiculous if they don't spread their healing).
Nah I guess 400k*0,45*25 = 4,5 million healing with 1 global isn't broken I belive the 100% of hp is overtuned and will be nerfed once it hits live, but that's just my expectation, the shrooms will be used as a raid cooldown in 10s and since a druid can cover basically every single need of a raid cooldown in 10s already that's just going to break the class to the point where everyone goes double druid in 10s.

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