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Old 10/21/12, 9:22 PM   #136
forsakenm
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Sunstrider (EU)
In my experience(which comes from a 25 man guild perspective) SoTF can be pretty useful in certain situations , specifically at bosses like Fang , because of the way he does damage to your raid. Incarnation is amazing if your raid , or certain multiple members of it take moderate , relatively constant damage -just lifebloom the players taking the damage and take advantage of the free regrowths. On bosses like Fang HC though , where the raid takes huge amounts of burst damage SoTF can be very useful if used with WG for thee burst healing as well as used for tranq , bringing it's cast time closer to 4 secs(particulary useful in the arcane phase when the raid gets devastated and you need to move out quickly).
To my suprise i found out that the mushrooms , if utilized properly can be a little useful for burst healing . They are still a ridicilously weak spell when used to heal 25 ppl , but the burst healing might save a few lives and most of all the mana cost is very , very low , so you can use them to balance your mana comsumption. The trick is to place them down when you have nothing better to do .
One last tip i actually picked up from hamlet- use an intel flask , not a spirit one-the extra output is a lot better than the regen if you know how to play. I used to stack as much spirit as possible-i had 11k spirit unbuffed and 2x trinkets that procc spirit. Now I've reduced my spirit to 9.5 k and increased my throughoutput stats , such as intel and mastery and i find the change to be rather positive to my overall performance.

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Old 10/22/12, 4:00 AM   #137
rmq
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Свежеватель душ (EU)
On our Feng HC kill (10 man) I was running about 7600 spirit unbuffed and using Int flasks and food. Mana was tight, I even had moments when I was almost doing nothing, being oom and waiting for mana tide or innervate to come up. I don't think I could've made it without incarnation. And I found Incarnation useful during Arcane Velocity, covering the raid with LBs right before it and then spamming WG to keep people alive and helping on tank afterwards (we had three Arcane Velocity casts, 1st and 3d were covered by the shield). After this fight I don't think I like SotF at all. It makes me less versatile. Yes, I was using occasional hastened HTs, boosted WGs an such, but it was fine on Feng normal, when no one was dying. So despite the fact I liked the idea of SotF at first, I came to realise I can't use this talent for HC progression at the moment. And there's an interesting situation where I decided for myself that SotF and Incarnation are useful for situations completely opposite to what forsakenm described:
Originally Posted by forsakenm View Post
In my experience(which comes from a 25 man guild perspective) SoTF can be pretty useful in certain situations , specifically at bosses like Fang , because of the way he does damage to your raid. Incarnation is amazing if your raid , or certain multiple members of it take moderate , relatively constant damage -just lifebloom the players taking the damage and take advantage of the free regrowths. On bosses like Fang HC though , where the raid takes huge amounts of burst damage SoTF can be very useful if used with WG for thee burst healing as well as used for tranq , bringing it's cast time closer to 4 secs(particulary useful in the arcane phase when the raid gets devastated and you need to move out quickly).
Though I admit I didn't try to use SotF on Feng HC, so I can't compare.
By the way I was standing 6-10 yards away from our raid while channeling Tranq on arcane phase and it rid me of the need to hasten it in order to move away asap.

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Old 10/22/12, 8:08 AM   #138
forsakenm
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Sunstrider (EU)
Originally Posted by rmq View Post
And there's an interesting situation where I decided for myself that SotF and Incarnation are useful for situations completely opposite to what forsakenm described:
You can't really compare 10 and 25 man healing- i agree that tree of life might be better for 10 man , since you can just lifebloom 8-10 members of your raid before the aoe. In 25 man though you do not have the option of hotting everyone up and SoTF is much more useful imo.

Since you linked logs I just can't help to share my satisfaction with the results from my specc and gameplay

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

On a different note there are many bosses where i prefer Incarnation as well such as Elgalon and Will of the Emperor normal-Tree of life is definitely stronger in those fights imo , but that's just because of the mechanics of them

Last edited by forsakenm : 10/22/12 at 8:16 AM.

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Old 10/22/12, 9:44 AM   #139
rmq
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Свежеватель душ (EU)
Originally Posted by forsakenm View Post
You can't really compare 10 and 25 man healing- i agree that tree of life might be better for 10 man , since you can just lifebloom 8-10 members of your raid before the aoe. In 25 man though you do not have the option of hotting everyone up and SoTF is much more useful imo.

Since you linked logs I just can't help to share my satisfaction with the results from my specc and gameplay

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

On a different note there are many bosses where i prefer Incarnation as well such as Elgalon and Will of the Emperor normal-Tree of life is definitely stronger in those fights imo , but that's just because of the mechanics of them
Well, I wasn't comparing 10 vs 25 man. I was stating that I found Incarnation more useful for our 10 man progression so far.
I just find the fact that you and I find SotF and Incarnation useful for opposite situations somewhat amusing. I'm sorry if I accidentally brought up that 10 vs 25 argument.

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Old 10/22/12, 9:54 AM   #140
forsakenm
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Sunstrider (EU)
Hehe , yeah I agree the talen choice in the tier is fully situational and somewhat personal . I don't find it suprising though that we have completely different prios , since 10 man healing with a druid is very different and it's where druids can be stronger imo . 25 man Burst aoe healing is painful as a druid provided that besides tranq we have no other appropriate abilities in our toolkit to deal with 25 ppl taking huge chunks of damage in a short period of time. I am a bit jelaous of shamans , because their healing tide totem seems to do mroe healing than tranq and we have to channel it , rather than just use 1 gcd. Monks i have no comment on....
I still haven't accurately determined if SoTF benefits the periodic portion of tranq or just the channel time. If it does it would make tranq stronger than any other cd we have avaliable atm

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Old 10/22/12, 10:57 AM   #141
rmq
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Свежеватель душ (EU)
Originally Posted by forsakenm View Post
I still haven't accurately determined if SoTF benefits the periodic portion of tranq or just the channel time. If it does it would make tranq stronger than any other cd we have avaliable atm
It didn't affect Tranq's HoT portion last time I checked.

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Old 10/22/12, 12:18 PM   #142
forsakenm
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Sunstrider (EU)
That is correct SoTF does not affect the periodic portion of tranq

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Old 10/22/12, 12:59 PM   #143
 Earen
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Troll Druid
 
Balnazzar
I started to write a response here regarding the current state of Druids and our toolkit, and evaluating where we fall in comparison to the other healers utilizing Raidbots and breaking it down fight by fight, but it was quite wordy and I utilized illustrations, so I posted it here instead: Same Problems, Different Day – Evaluating the Resto Druid Toolkit By The Numbers Falling Leaves and Wings

The long and short of it is that Druids are performing significantly behind Monks, Shaman and Paladins. We are frequently underperforming Holy Priests, and it largely seems the only class in a worse position than we are at this stage are Disc Priests (or priests in general). I know it's been talked about a few times, but having seen all of the encounters and started work on heroics, I still can't help but feel that if our toolkit isn't shored up we will continue to fall behind the other healers in performance.

I still don't feel that smart use of things like NS, OoC or picking an "optimal" spec is going to be sufficient enough to solve the problems that we are seeing in a 25 man raid setting. Something fundamental needs to be fixed so that we are both competitive and viable.

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Old 10/22/12, 6:00 PM   #144
itsmommy
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Night Elf Druid
 
Turalyon
Originally Posted by forsakenm View Post
In 25 man though you do not have the option of hotting everyone up and SoTF is much more useful imo.

Since you linked logs I just can't help to share my satisfaction with the results from my specc and gameplay

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

On a different note there are many bosses where i prefer Incarnation as well such as Elgalon and Will of the Emperor normal-Tree of life is definitely stronger in those fights imo , but that's just because of the mechanics of them

Forsakenm - nice meters -- Since I can't come close to those numbers I'd love to know your general 30 second healing rotation and how you're tying SoTF to WG and Rejuv. That may help me see the errors of my SoTF patterns.

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Old 10/23/12, 5:08 AM   #145
forsakenm
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Sunstrider (EU)
Well it's mostly reactive healing , in a sense than i keep rej up on the tank , or another raid member at all times ofc-when raid damage comes/is about to come-swiftmend and WG - you have to be aware of the positioning of the peson you're swiftmending ofc , so that he's not standing far out the raid (the secondary part of swiftmend is quite strong , especially now that it can crit ) , I also spam a few rejuvs across. I've noticed that (at least in my guild ) I usually have more healing done to the tanks than the other healers-keeping bloom and rej on them seems to really help and if you're not tight on mana use nourish / CC regrowths as filler.I find myself using shrooms as a "filler" in fights or situations where my mana is really tight-the healing they do is awful , but the mana cost is only 6k so...kinda worth it if you're oom.
Most fights I can't be as liberal as I['d like with rej spam , but the fact that you can't spam the entire raid doesn't mean that you can't spam 5-6 ppl at a time . There's a good chance it will overheals since other healer's smart heals that do instant healing will top them long b4 rej ticks to it's fullest potential , but that's undeterminable so you might as well try .
About our toolkit- i still really hope that blizz will consider giving us a new spell-Cenarion ward was a bitter dissapoitment- if it did not have a cd and the healing was reduced by let's say 50 % itwould have been a great new ability , allowing us to really "prehot" raid members and promoting the resto druid playstyle while giving us a new kind of hot that has less overhealing potential. I don't want us to get a no-brainer instant aoe heal like some of the other classes-i really enjoy the druid playstyle and i hope blizz balances us out and stays true to how we heal.

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Old 10/23/12, 8:41 AM   #146
aleks0410
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
Originally Posted by forsakenm View Post
Well it's mostly reactive healing , in a sense than i keep rej up on the tank , or another raid member at all times ofc-when raid damage comes/is about to come-swiftmend and WG - you have to be aware of the positioning of the peson you're swiftmending ofc , so that he's not standing far out the raid (the secondary part of swiftmend is quite strong , especially now that it can crit ) , I also spam a few rejuvs across. I've noticed that (at least in my guild ) I usually have more healing done to the tanks than the other healers-keeping bloom and rej on them seems to really help and if you're not tight on mana use nourish / CC regrowths as filler.I find myself using shrooms as a "filler" in fights or situations where my mana is really tight-the healing they do is awful , but the mana cost is only 6k so...kinda worth it if you're oom.
Most fights I can't be as liberal as I['d like with rej spam , but the fact that you can't spam the entire raid doesn't mean that you can't spam 5-6 ppl at a time . There's a good chance it will overheals since other healer's smart heals that do instant healing will top them long b4 rej ticks to it's fullest potential , but that's undeterminable so you might as well try .
About our toolkit- i still really hope that blizz will consider giving us a new spell-Cenarion ward was a bitter dissapoitment- if it did not have a cd and the healing was reduced by let's say 50 % itwould have been a great new ability , allowing us to really "prehot" raid members and promoting the resto druid playstyle while giving us a new kind of hot that has less overhealing potential. I don't want us to get a no-brainer instant aoe heal like some of the other classes-i really enjoy the druid playstyle and i hope blizz balances us out and stays true to how we heal.
I thought Nourish wasn't worth casting at the moment? Maybe I got this wrong?

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Old 10/23/12, 10:03 AM   #147
forsakenm
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Sunstrider (EU)
The tank damage is very heavy atm. Spamming nourish on the tank is always a way to go , but you should only spam it if you feel comfortable enough with your mana regen. If not you can spend some time puting down shrooms or just w8 for mana regen , but definitely refresh lifebloom with nourish-the combined mana effectivness is quite descent.

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Old 10/23/12, 10:36 AM   #148
 Earen
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Troll Druid
 
Balnazzar
Originally Posted by forsakenm View Post
The tank damage is very heavy atm. Spamming nourish on the tank is always a way to go , but you should only spam it if you feel comfortable enough with your mana regen. If not you can spend some time puting down shrooms or just w8 for mana regen , but definitely refresh lifebloom with nourish-the combined mana effectivness is quite descent.
This is not accurate. At the moment Nourish has very low HPM. You would be much better off waiting for the tank to take enough damage to utilize a Regrwoth rather than just spam a very weak spell in our toolkit. In my work on this encounter last week there was not a single time I felt that nourish was 1)needed or 2) required to keep the tank alive. I'm fairly confident that you would actually save mana by waiting for a bigger hit that requires a bigger heal and healing it reactively. There are no hits so big that the tanks life will be taken down in a single blow, where you would not have the time to either cancel/cast or wait to judge the incoming damage and make a smart spell selection.

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Old 10/23/12, 12:09 PM   #149
Nihlo
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Tauren Druid
 
Alleria (EU)
Originally Posted by Earen View Post
Prime Glyphs:
Use [Glyph of Wild Growth]
Do you all use the WG-Glyph in 10man raids ? I can't really image that the longer cd is worth the additional target in most of the 10man Encounters.

Something else: I tried to get some stat-weights from TreeCalcs for hero-raids. Since I monk a lot and my druid is still 85, I only got some very theoretical numbers for good throughput. Can anyone provide some numbers based on his/her own experience on 10 man hero raids. Especially the balance between int and spirit. Somewhat more complex than:

1 int = 1
1 spirit = 2
1 spellpower = 0,76
1 mastery = 0,5
1 crit = 0,3
1 haste = 0,1

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Old 10/23/12, 2:25 PM   #150
 Hamlet
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Mal'Ganis
That note reminds me--is there a good third glyph for Challenge Modes besides Regrowth and Lifebloom? I still have HT installed but never do anything with it. I guess Rebirth--or maybe Stampeding Roar?

------------

"Nourish is not worth casting at all" is probably a mid exaggeration, but you basically want to break the habit of using it a lot, and then maybe think about times when you get some minor efficiency gain from working it in. Honestly though like Beru was saying--you could probably forget about it completely and you wouldn't miss much. Definitely don't subconsciously auto-cast it whenever you're not doing anything else.

At low crit rates and with Glyph of RG (and crit meta, which you should always have), Nourish/RG/HT all have very similar HPM (Nourish is only slightly higher). So in theory you can squeeze out tiny amounts of efficiency by using Nourish whenever you have time. Or in particular, when RG would overheal but you want top someone off or refresh LB rather than wait.

But the throughput of Nourish is so low that even worrying about this feels like a stretch in nearly any situation. You're taking over 2 seconds to drop 30k healing into someone. First of all, if it's a tank then by the time that cast finishes you may well have rather had the bigger heal anyway (this is actually something I use HT for--cancel-casting on a tank is a bit more convenient with the longer heal). Basically in any situation where getting people up actually matters, you can't use Nourish. And when someone's not at full but you have time to get them up completely at your leisure? That's when you drop a Rejuv on them and move on.

I've long said (well, since Cata beta I think) that the Resto filler heal should explicitly be Rejuv, and that the mechanics should fully support that. Given that Monks have shown they're willing to break out of the standard 3-heal framework, I hope this is something to revisit at some point.


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