[Resto] Mists of Pandaria 5.3 - Page 12

• Hamlet · 10/30/12, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by Payday

Will it be worth going above 3043 haste for the extra Regrowth ticks at 5730 and 6652 when gear capable of those numbers is available? It seems a druid would have to specifically gear for near pure haste to achieve that mark, while reducing our efficiency with rejuvenation. Putting that extra value (~3600) into mastery instead gains about 7.5% potency on all of our HoTs and thusly improves efficiency.

As we gain regen, we will use less nourish and regrowth is fast already, so any bonus to general casting speed will diminish and our percentage of healing via HoTs will increase making mastery more important. Until we are at a gear point where it's difficult to not have 6652 haste I don't think we'll benefit as much from haste as we will from mastery once beyond the 3043 break.

Old post, but guy who posted was talking to me in PM's and I think it's a good discussion for here.

--6652 is correct for the 9th tick of WG and Efflorescence. Table in the main thread doesn't specifically mention Effloresence, but the spreadsheet takes it into account--that part's worked the same since Cataclysm.
--In general, going from 3043 to 6652 haste gives you a tick added to WG/Efflo, and not much other benefit (a tick of RG if you're unglyphed, and a tick of Lifebloom). 12.5% healing added to WG/Efflo (9 ticks instead of 8) is about 5% total healing if those spells comprise ~40% of your healing (not sure how generous an estimate that is).
--3600 Mastery increases your Harmony bonus by around 7.5, as you said. At 20.0% base Mastery (low end, I think), this is around a 6.25% increase.

So they're actually pretty close. What it really depends on is
1) What % of your healing is done with WG/Efflo.
2) What stats you're actually choosing between. If all 3600 of the stat points you're using to get to the next breakpoint are coming right out of mastery/Int (Int on gems is very similar to mastery), I might not do it. But if you're giving up some crit/Spirit in there, the deal looks a lot better.

It's usually the case that your two best secondary stats don't compete with each other directly due to reforging. On Haste/Mastery items, you reforge the haste to Spirit, or not, based on whether you're going for the breakpoint--mastery is unaffected. Same for Crit/Mastery or Spirit/Mastery. On Crit/Haste or Spirit/haste items, you're going to reforge one or the other to mastery regardless (based on whether you're trying to move haste up or down, again).

So in practice, the bulk of reforged haste will pull out of crit/Spirit, and you only lose good throughput stats (Int/mastery) to the extent you have to regem to get the rest of the way there. So I expect that going for the haste breakpoint once it's practical is probably pretty reasonable, and will get more effective as your gear gets better (since you'll have more crit/Spirit whose best use is being turned into haste, and you'll eat less into mastery).

Numiro · 10/30/12, 5:28 PM

Originally Posted by itsmommy

Had an interesting discussion about haste break points last night. As my available haste increases well above 3043 and 4717 is now reasonably in reach would it make sense to hit this mark (at the cost of mastery) and get the extra LB and RG ticks? Clearly I'd forgo the RG glyph which may be ok given base crit and windsong crit effects. Not sure if anyone has played with this scenario and deemed it passible or a clear HPS loser.

Adding extra ticks to lifebloom is never going to be worth it, and rejuvenation hot is a very, _VERY_ minor part of our healing, so I'd dare bust that just by that.

The reason Lifebloom doesn't benefit from adding ticks is that the hot is constantly refreshed before the duration runs out, so that any excess haste above the cap isn't wasted.

Numiro · 10/30/12, 5:34 PM

Originally Posted by itsmommy

Had an interesting discussion about haste break points last night. As my available haste increases well above 3043 and 4717 is now reasonably in reach would it make sense to hit this mark (at the cost of mastery) and get the extra LB and RG ticks? Clearly I'd forgo the RG glyph which may be ok given base crit and windsong crit effects. Not sure if anyone has played with this scenario and deemed it passible or a clear HPS loser.

Adding extra ticks to lifebloom is never going to be worth it, and rejuvenation hot is a very, _VERY_ minor part of our healing, so I'd dare bust that just by that.

The reason Lifebloom doesn't benefit from adding ticks is that the hot is constantly refreshed before the duration runs out, so that any excess haste above the cap isn't wasted.

Something I've been thinking about but haven't had the time to do the math about is using SotF to roll lifeblooms on tanks during low damage phases, like for example Elegon between spawns or during the pillar phase, adding 50% haste to the spell is bound to increase the clearcasting procs by alot aswell, for example if you have 25 ticks over 15 seconds you're looking at a free regrowth every time you refresh the lifebloom. I'm not aware of how adding ticks works though so if there's anyone out there able to explain why this isn't used more I'd be happy to learn.

rmq · 10/31/12, 4:15 AM

Originally Posted by Hamlet

Old post, but guy who posted was talking to me in PM's and I think it's a good discussion for here.

--6652 is correct for the 9th tick of WG and Efflorescence. Table in the main thread doesn't specifically mention Effloresence, but the spreadsheet takes it into account--that part's worked the same since Cataclysm.
--In general, going from 3043 to 6652 haste gives you a tick added to WG/Efflo, and not much other benefit (a tick of RG if you're unglyphed, and a tick of Lifebloom). 12.5% healing added to WG/Efflo (9 ticks instead of 8) is about 5% total healing if those spells comprise ~40% of your healing (not sure how generous an estimate that is).
--3600 Mastery increases your Harmony bonus by around 7.5, as you said. At 20.0% base Mastery (low end, I think), this is around a 6.25% increase.

So they're actually pretty close. What it really depends on is
1) What % of your healing is done with WG/Efflo.
2) What stats you're actually choosing between. If all 3600 of the stat points you're using to get to the next breakpoint are coming right out of mastery/Int (Int on gems is very similar to mastery), I might not do it. But if you're giving up some crit/Spirit in there, the deal looks a lot better.

It's usually the case that your two best secondary stats don't compete with each other directly due to reforging. On Haste/Mastery items, you reforge the haste to Spirit, or not, based on whether you're going for the breakpoint--mastery is unaffected. Same for Crit/Mastery or Spirit/Mastery. On Crit/Haste or Spirit/haste items, you're going to reforge one or the other to mastery regardless (based on whether you're trying to move haste up or down, again).

So in practice, the bulk of reforged haste will pull out of crit/Spirit, and you only lose good throughput stats (Int/mastery) to the extent you have to regem to get the rest of the way there. So I expect that going for the haste breakpoint once it's practical is probably pretty reasonable, and will get more effective as your gear gets better (since you'll have more crit/Spirit whose best use is being turned into haste, and you'll eat less into mastery).

I tried going to 6652 haste breakpoint, though I had to give up every stat I could, including lots of mastery. In my case the result was negative. I was trying it with SotF on Feng HC and, despite gear upgrades, I lost in HPS compared to our previous kill. My performance was not optimal by far, as I have not utilized SotF on this fight before, so I was getting used. We also had to bring another tank and that influenced my healing style as well. Wery often I couldn't synchronize SM with WG because I had to use a direct heal right after using SM.
Things I noted to self:
Mastery is not worth losing (in such large quantities at least). I guess I would've been better off with 5730 breakpoint after all with 1000 more mastery.
SotF does result in a hps gain if you can afford to use SM->WG most of the time. This is like a paraphrase of what Hamlet said about WG/Efflo composing 40% of your heals. On our first kill WG was 19.8% and Efflo was 11.8%, on our second kill (with haste and SotF) WG was 21.4% and Efflo 13%. Here are the logs for comparison:
Feng 10 HC - Incarnation /w 3043 breakpoint
Feng 10 HC - SotF /w 6652 breakpoint

Numiro · 10/31/12, 7:06 AM

Originally Posted by rmq

I tried going to 6652 haste breakpoint, though I had to give up every stat I could, including lots of mastery. In my case the result was negative. I was trying it with SotF on Feng HC and, despite gear upgrades, I lost in HPS compared to our previous kill. My performance was not optimal by far, as I have not utilized SotF on this fight before, so I was getting used. We also had to bring another tank and that influenced my healing style as well. Wery often I couldn't synchronize SM with WG because I had to use a direct heal right after using SM.
Things I noted to self:
Mastery is not worth losing (in such large quantities at least). I guess I would've been better off with 5730 breakpoint after all with 1000 more mastery.

There were some kind of guesstimate based on the intellect of former and current tiers, that guesstimate (funny word) averaged that it'd be worth losing about 1000 int to reach the haste cap. 1000 int is roughly 2300 mastery IIRC, and it won't be worth going for the haste caps untill you can reach them purily by sacrificing mastery and crit, atleast this is what I've been thinking, based on the haste caps in Dragon Soul.

mxposed · 10/31/12, 7:44 AM

Originally Posted by Numiro

Adding extra ticks to lifebloom is never going to be worth it, and rejuvenation hot is a very, _VERY_ minor part of our healing, so I'd dare bust that just by that.

The reason Lifebloom doesn't benefit from adding ticks is that the hot is constantly refreshed before the duration runs out, so that any excess haste above the cap isn't wasted.

Maybe you meant Regrowth hot? Because Rejuvenation is always my top healing spell.

I like your point about using SotF with LB for the additional Clearcasting procs, but unfortunately this seems not to be worth it. I was using SotF on Stone Guard HC, mostly with WG but also to get hasted LB on tank, however i had only 12 Clearcasting procs in than 6.45 fight. On the contrary, i see in other logs that having taken Incarnation talent and using it for spamming LB on everyone gives 40 Clearcasting procs during the same fight.

rmq · 10/31/12, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by Numiro

There were some kind of guesstimate based on the intellect of former and current tiers, that guesstimate (funny word) averaged that it'd be worth losing about 1000 int to reach the haste cap. 1000 int is roughly 2300 mastery IIRC, and it won't be worth going for the haste caps untill you can reach them purily by sacrificing mastery and crit, atleast this is what I've been thinking, based on the haste caps in Dragon Soul.

Well, I had something like this in mind, but I guess I sacrificed a bit too much.
Do we have an estimate of our stat weights?

Numiro · 11/01/12, 6:29 AM

Originally Posted by mxposed

Maybe you meant Regrowth hot? Because Rejuvenation is always my top healing spell.

I like your point about using SotF with LB for the additional Clearcasting procs, but unfortunately this seems not to be worth it. I was using SotF on Stone Guard HC, mostly with WG but also to get hasted LB on tank, however i had only 12 Clearcasting procs in than 6.45 fight. On the contrary, i see in other logs that having taken Incarnation talent and using it for spamming LB on everyone gives 40 Clearcasting procs during the same fight.

Yea regrowth ofcourse, think I might've mixed them up. I used SotF to procc clearcasting during the first phase on Feng, aswell as during Elegon, it seems to work out quite well for me and whenever I do a hasted LB I generally tend to get atleast one clearcasting proc each time, but that's just what it feels like.

On Elegon I basiclly alternated between an hasted Wild Growth right before the explosion from the add and a hasted lifebloom on the tank. Once we reached p4 I specced into Incarnation though, that cooldown is way to precious to be wasted on SotF on that fight.

Originally Posted by rmq

Well, I had something like this in mind, but I guess I sacrificed a bit too much.
Do we have an estimate of our stat weights?

No I do not, I'm basiclly just following what the numbers would tell me, we have in general quite decent scaling from intellect(spellpower) so what I've been using is something like 1 int = 1.5 spirit (because I need more mana regen right now) and then haste to cap>mastery>excess haste>crit.

There shouldn't be any need for any stat weights if you just use common sense, haste outside of caps is negative to our mana but with a slight gain in healing (only lifebloom and our casted spells benefit from it, not counting the GCD), haste on cap is giving us free healing. Mastery is boosting all healing by a small amount and crit doesn't do jack shit really ^^

Quite messy but haven't really tried to explain why we don't need stat weights before ^^

apostolis · 11/01/12, 12:08 PM

Some testing i did last night (wild mark on)
Sp : 20675
Mastery 21%
healing touch : 72k to 73k
healing touch Crit 150k
rejuv : 12407(no harmony activated)-15012(harmony up)
Lifebloom: 5428 (no harmony activated)-6566(harmony up)

Decreasing spellpower increasing mastery
Spellpower 19994 (-681 spellpower) (intellect is 14852)
Mastery : 23%
healing touch : 69k to 70k
healing touch Crit 146-148k
rejuv : 12138(no harmony activated)-14930(harmony up)
Lifebloom: 5311 (no harmony activated)-6532(harmony up)

rejuv healing is affected by 39.2 sp is added according to tooltip
healing touch healing is affected 186% of sp is added according to tooltip

Questions :
Can someone analyse the connection in 14852 intellect and spellpower of 19994
Increasing mastery by 2% could not cover the loss of 681 spellpower but how is spellpower actually applying to spells . Is the application correct?

Akusei · 11/01/12, 6:43 PM

Originally Posted by apostolis

Questions :
Can someone analyse the connection in 14852 intellect and spellpower of 19994

The spellpower granted by your weapon most likely.

apostolis · 11/01/12, 8:45 PM

haha thats true i forgot to add "in comparison with mastery"

rmq · 11/02/12, 6:44 AM

Originally Posted by Numiro

No I do not, I'm basiclly just following what the numbers would tell me, we have in general quite decent scaling from intellect(spellpower) so what I've been using is something like 1 int = 1.5 spirit (because I need more mana regen right now) and then haste to cap>mastery>excess haste>crit.

There shouldn't be any need for any stat weights if you just use common sense, haste outside of caps is negative to our mana but with a slight gain in healing (only lifebloom and our casted spells benefit from it, not counting the GCD), haste on cap is giving us free healing. Mastery is boosting all healing by a small amount and crit doesn't do jack shit really ^^

Quite messy but haven't really tried to explain why we don't need stat weights before ^^

We do need to know our stat weights if we want to decide which gem is better in a colorless slot, for instance. Does Int give us twice as much throughput as Mastery? In your previous post you said that 1000 int is roughly 2300 mastery, but I myself don't think the difference is that big. But my thoughts and guesses on this matter are not based on anything except for my subjective feeling, and therefore have no value for constructive discussion.
And I can't see how following common sencse can help me compare crit with mastery. You say "mastery is boosting all healing by a small amount", but why should I think that crit "doesn't do jack shit really"? I can say that crit occasionaly makes all our spells heal twice as much and is slightly worse than mastery on the average, but a timely crit can save your tank and a lucky crit streak can take you on top of healing logs. Crit isn't that far below mastery, in Firelands stacking crit was a pretty viable option (I guess its itemization cost was increased since then). Crit was worthless when crit heals were 1.5x larger than normal.
I hope this clarifies why I was asking specifically for stat weights. And by the way I'm pretty sure that what really doesn't do jack shit is excess haste. At least my common sense makes me think so

apostolis · 11/02/12, 6:06 PM

Crit has lost its value because for example our main direct healing spell (before getting tier bonuses) regrowth has a glyph that makes it crit 100% .

On the other hand you raise some issues i am also trying to bring up for a long time here and the only reply i got was a warning from a moderator that i dont read the topic and all the info is in there. The issue is the connection of stats and our current spells . How much its stats is actually effecting our spells . Treecacls in the past had a superb way to show clearly (after you have imported your character) how much each stat had value in your spells with raid buff and gear (if you want to add all buffs). Sadly it has not been updated but i persuade the author to start working again on updating the webpage but the procedure is long and i think he will need support from all of us to do it .

The only thing i show and was clear about our basic stats was and quote it :
"
Intellect:
Intellect provides 1 spellpower and 0.00039% to crit per point.

Several abilities and bonuses may interact with Intellect to provide an increased value for each point of Intellect that you have. There are three main abilities that will have this effect: Leather Specialization (5%), Heart of the Wild (6%) and Mark of the Wild (5%). As such, assuming use of Leather Specialization and MotW, 1 point of intellect will be worth 1.1025. If you add in Heart of the Wild 1 point of intellect will be worth 1.169 (this will also provide you with 0.00046% crit per point). Note that it takes 2168 points per 1% crit, which is about 3.5 times weaker than 1 crit rating.

Intellect will be your best stat for throughput.
"

Clear in terms of how it interacts with abilities and the value it provides but personally (call me stupid if you want) confusing on the "Note that it takes 2168 points per 1% crit, which is about 3.5 times weaker than 1 crit rating." I personally dont understand the comment and i would appreciate if someone could make it more clear for me.

Numiro · 11/02/12, 6:30 PM

Originally Posted by rmq

We do need to know our stat weights if we want to decide which gem is better in a colorless slot, for instance. Does Int give us twice as much throughput as Mastery? In your previous post you said that 1000 int is roughly 2300 mastery, but I myself don't think the difference is that big. But my thoughts and guesses on this matter are not based on anything except for my subjective feeling, and therefore have no value for constructive discussion.
And I can't see how following common sencse can help me compare crit with mastery. You say "mastery is boosting all healing by a small amount", but why should I think that crit "doesn't do jack shit really"? I can say that crit occasionaly makes all our spells heal twice as much and is slightly worse than mastery on the average, but a timely crit can save your tank and a lucky crit streak can take you on top of healing logs. Crit isn't that far below mastery, in Firelands stacking crit was a pretty viable option (I guess its itemization cost was increased since then). Crit was worthless when crit heals were 1.5x larger than normal.
I hope this clarifies why I was asking specifically for stat weights. And by the way I'm pretty sure that what really doesn't do jack shit is excess haste. At least my common sense makes me think so

Crit tends to overheal alot, especially when combined with hots, say that you put up a rejuvenation on a target that'll benefit from everything but the last tick, if that rejuvenation ticks, it just did nothing to increase total healing done. Sure, it got specific scenarios where it's almost as strong as mastery or excess haste, but those specific scenarios are so rare and of such low impact that I've decided crit is the stat that I neglect entirely, if I lose 1000 crit rating for 600 mastery I'd do it any given day.

TL;DR: Crit tends to go into overhealing, it's not reliable.

rmq · 11/02/12, 7:11 PM

Originally Posted by Numiro

TL;DR: Crit tends to go into overhealing, it's not reliable.

This is an argument held for ages. And I don't think it really has that much to do with crit's usefullnes. With one's preferred playstyle maybe. But if crit is listed as top priority stat on the first page most people won't be bothered by its randomness. This can happen if itemization cost of crit falls below itemization cost of mastery for example, or if value of mastery diminishes with higher level of gear.