[Resto] Mists of Pandaria 5.3 - Page 17

Quincunx · 11/29/12, 2:15 PM

Originally Posted by Numiro

I've just discovered something that came to a shock to me, I can reach the 6652 haste cap by sacrificing about 1k worth of spirit, that's roughly a 600 hps boost trade in extra rejuvenations vs 1400 hps boost in Wild Growth if my napkin math before my morning coffee is correct.

That 1K still isn't really coming out of spirit, though. If you're comfortable at 7K spirit worth of regen, you're comfortable there no matter throughput stats you put the points into, since none of them are affecting your regen. What you're really taking that 1K itemization out of is the mastery that you would have reforged it to otherwise, or perhaps INT depending on your gemming strategy. The tradeoffs between mastery and haste aren't going to change based on your level of spirit.

Numiro · 11/29/12, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by Quincunx

That 1K still isn't really coming out of spirit, though. If you're comfortable at 7K spirit worth of regen, you're comfortable there no matter throughput stats you put the points into, since none of them are affecting your regen. What you're really taking that 1K itemization out of is the mastery that you would have reforged it to otherwise, or perhaps INT depending on your gemming strategy. The tradeoffs between mastery and haste aren't going to change based on your level of spirit.

The thing is that I acctualy plan my mana use, I don't spend everything I got and hope no one dies when I run out, I end my fights on 10-15% mana 99% of the time unless something unexpected/unplanned for happends, when I get extra spirit I heal more, when I remove spirit, I heal less, The thing to discuss is how this haste cap acctualy affects our healing style and if it's worth the tradeof, the math I did suggested an 800 hps boost, IF WG is used on CD, I won't be able to replicate a proper raiding scenario before sunday, so that's why I asked for someone else's logs who've acctualy got the haste cap.

Flashlight · 11/30/12, 5:07 AM

Has anyone calculated the mp5 of the new healing trinket from Dominance Offensive? Talking about this one [Cutstitcher Medallion]

Numiro · 11/30/12, 8:21 AM

Originally Posted by Flashlight

Has anyone calculated the mp5 of the new healing trinket from Dominance Offensive? Talking about this one [Cutstitcher Medallion]

It's equal to 959,5 spirit (15 second duration devided by the cooldown, 60 times the procc value (15/60*3838 = 959,5)

First post in thread:

56.4 MP5 in combat for every 100 Spirit.

959,5*0,564 = 541,158 mp5, if used on CD.

Flashlight · 11/30/12, 8:50 AM

Originally Posted by Numiro

It's equal to 959,5 spirit (15 second duration devided by the cooldown, 60 times the procc value (15/60*3838 = 959,5)

First post in thread:

959,5*0,564 = 541,158 mp5, if used on CD.

Ah thank you. That was exactly the calculation I was looking for.

♦ Earen · 11/30/12, 1:58 PM

Monks were overpowered and were nerfed in 5.1. We think druids are fine.

source

The level of disapointment I felt upon reading this cannot be described. I do not feel that the monk nerfs have "helped" our ability to be a competitive performer at all. I don't know if this is becuase disc is so broken right now, or if it's because we continue to have the same giant gap in our toolkit that fails to be resolved expansion after expansion and patch after patch.

Mana continues to be problematic in 25s. Mushrooms continue to be terrible in 25s. General output continues to struggle in 25s, largely as a result of the prior two issues. I simply cannot comprehend how any of that is "fine".

Kjeldorian · 12/01/12, 5:02 AM

I agree with your sentiments, we've simply replaced a class that could HoT the entire raid now with a class than can shield the entire raid. And that is the pattern that the healing composition of my raid group is changing to as we being to carry more disc priests.

I have been currently been forced into niche healing in either tank healing with aggressive reduced ironbark cooldowns, specialized in burst AoE healing, or in mobility healing for certain fights in order to justify my position in the roster. The other healing classes still retain mechanics where their top 1-3 abilities are spells that hit multiple targets or are built into all their heals (Healing Rain, Divine Aegis / Spirit Spell, Uplift / Renewing Mist, Illuminated Healing) whereas Rdruids most will have Rejuv as their top heal followed by Wild Growth and then Regrowth or Lifebloom based on the encounter and healing assignment. [In comparison WG will at most encompass 30% of healing done vs mins of 40% to max of 60% by any one of the above stated abilities]

This goes in comparison to how the Efflor portion of Swiftmend has gone down significantly in healing done compared to previous tiers where Efflo would have done a significantly higher amount of healing done.

I agree that the changes to WM:B are in dire need, the only time I really use them anymore is pre pull, if that. Changes made in MoP to the Rdruid tree never really improved our situation, Living Seed is still a laughable after thought as it does very little healing overall.

Our mana situation has never improved due to the removal of Revitalize and though we have a double omen of clarity chance of proc, the effectiveness is reliant on the reaction of the druid to use it quickly and effectively.

Numiro · 12/01/12, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Earen

source

The level of disapointment I felt upon reading this cannot be described. I do not feel that the monk nerfs have "helped" our ability to be a competitive performer at all. I don't know if this is becuase disc is so broken right now, or if it's because we continue to have the same giant gap in our toolkit that fails to be resolved expansion after expansion and patch after patch.

Mana continues to be problematic in 25s. Mushrooms continue to be terrible in 25s. General output continues to struggle in 25s, largely as a result of the prior two issues. I simply cannot comprehend how any of that is "fine".

It's the simple fact that we're healing and not shielding, pure healing will always be worth less then increasing someones effective hp the way shamans/paladins/dPriests does.

You also have to remember that Monks have only one weak CD, they're basiclly just having more sustained healing in order to cover up the fact that they lack the sustained high damage healing that a druid/hpriest can cover better.

With that said I still think druids are in a weak spot because of how the other healers work, in a perfect world a Dpriest is going to be "safer" while healing compared to a druid because if a guy takes 500k damage the druids target is going to be dead while the Dpriest would've had a shield up and saved his life. Not to mention they have 20% bubble, which I honestly belive is so much stronger then tranq/Tree of Life because it's once again damage taken vs healing done. I'm acctualy leveling a priest for the single reason to switch main class because I feel like I'm letting my raiding group down by playing a druid :'(

Kjeldorian · 12/01/12, 3:57 PM

If you consider the Monk healing CD of Revival to be weak you may wish to reconsider since, Revival is not target capped vs Druid Tranquility cap of 20 targets. The healing provided is upfront vs needing to channel (which makes it hard to use during certain mechanics (Feng's Arcane Velocity having a shorter channel than tranq, Vizier attunement movement, and the countless number of times the boss decides to pick you for the move or die mechanic while in the middle of a tranq)).

But setting aside target cap and channel time, Revival hits harder for all the targets Revival - Spell - World of Warcraft (500% SP) vs our Tranquility - Spell - World of Warcraft (83.5% SP). Though we add a HoT that heals for a small chunk it still pales in comparison to the free debuff clearing which can be raid saver during certain MC mechanics or AoE magic mechanics such as Cowardice during H Kings.

Even if you believe Tranquility is still superior, why take a Rdruid? When a Moonkin heals for just as hard, provides an elusive 5% spell haste that blizzard has never expanded class buff wise since Cata, provides an external mana cooldown to healers, and take a monk instead with the higher sustained HPS.

Also, Power Word: Barrier is 25% rather than 20%.

Numiro · 12/02/12, 6:21 AM

Originally Posted by Kjeldorian

If you consider the Monk healing CD of Revival to be weak you may wish to reconsider since, Revival is not target capped vs Druid Tranquility cap of 20 targets. The healing provided is upfront vs needing to channel (which makes it hard to use during certain mechanics (Feng's Arcane Velocity having a shorter channel than tranq, Vizier attunement movement, and the countless number of times the boss decides to pick you for the move or die mechanic while in the middle of a tranq)).

But setting aside target cap and channel time, Revival hits harder for all the targets Revival - Spell - World of Warcraft (500% SP) vs our Tranquility - Spell - World of Warcraft (83.5% SP). Though we add a HoT that heals for a small chunk it still pales in comparison to the free debuff clearing which can be raid saver during certain MC mechanics or AoE magic mechanics such as Cowardice during H Kings.

Even if you believe Tranquility is still superior, why take a Rdruid? When a Moonkin heals for just as hard, provides an elusive 5% spell haste that blizzard has never expanded class buff wise since Cata, provides an external mana cooldown to healers, and take a monk instead with the higher sustained HPS.

Also, Power Word: Barrier is 25% rather than 20%.

Thank you, I haven't healed with a priest this entire expansion. I consider our CD's to be stronger because they are several, you have Tree of Life, Nature's Vigil AND tranq. I'd dare say I'd prefer to have those 3 over 1 single panic button that is, if I may say so, alot weaker then Tree of Life*, anyway I still don't see why we're debating monks in the druid thread.

I'd still like to see if there's anyone out there who've tried with the 6652 haste cap, seeing how no one performing top logs right now have it I'm starting to doubt its effect, but as said before I don't have a raid untill tonight.

Weaker because tree of life is a mana neutral healing period, which is way more effective then 130k burst heal raidwide if you ask me.

Dack · 12/02/12, 8:45 AM

I am not the big theory crafter, but I dont see much gain going for the 6652 haste cap.

By going for the haste cap, you boost WG and LB HPM and HPS, abit of HPS on all spells, but at a cost to HPM -> Your spells such as HT will land faster, but do less healing due to the deficit in mastery/crit.

Now, I am in a 10 player raid group, so dont take this as facts for all raid compositions, but let us take a look at Wild Growth and encounters. If encounters offer a lot of continues raid dmg, the chance of your ~8k WG ticks overhealing, will be quite low. Garalon is a fine example, people are almost always lacking some health. Great encounter for WG. Other examples would be HC Blade Lord sub 20%, Start of HC Spirit Kings, HC Will of Emps, Protectors etc. 'Slow' massive raid dmg, perfect for WG. But as soon as you "need" to heal the raid up faster than 8 seconds, your WG will result in alot of overhealing, especially the last 1-2 seconds of the duration -> The extra tick you just bought with 3500 haste.

I would rather take ~2-3% across all heals (mastery) than ~13% extra healing with WG (Which is around 20% of my overall healing done),

Numiro · 12/02/12, 1:14 PM

Originally Posted by Dack

I am not the big theory crafter, but I dont see much gain going for the 6652 haste cap.

By going for the haste cap, you boost WG and LB HPM and HPS, abit of HPS on all spells, but at a cost to HPM -> Your spells such as HT will land faster, but do less healing due to the deficit in mastery/crit.

Now, I am in a 10 player raid group, so dont take this as facts for all raid compositions, but let us take a look at Wild Growth and encounters. If encounters offer a lot of continues raid dmg, the chance of your ~8k WG ticks overhealing, will be quite low. Garalon is a fine example, people are almost always lacking some health. Great encounter for WG. Other examples would be HC Blade Lord sub 20%, Start of HC Spirit Kings, HC Will of Emps, Protectors etc. 'Slow' massive raid dmg, perfect for WG. But as soon as you "need" to heal the raid up faster than 8 seconds, your WG will result in alot of overhealing, especially the last 1-2 seconds of the duration -> The extra tick you just bought with 3500 haste.

I would rather take ~2-3% across all heals (mastery) than ~13% extra healing with WG (Which is around 20% of my overall healing done),

You do forget the fact that _ALL_ healing is achieved faster, even the ticks that you didn't "add" with that haste cap, haste is the best stat to gear for when you need burst healing, something "my" guild struggles with atm. Haste = Burst, mastery = sustained. You've got your facts wrong.

The main stat I switched around to gain the haste cap was spirit, roughly worth 600 hps in added rejuvenations over a 6 min fight, not that duration should make a difference. The haste cap itself provides roughly 1400 hps if used on CD for me in my current gear. (It was a difference between mana and healing from WG since I had no mastery left to switch around)

Dack · 12/02/12, 1:38 PM

By going for the haste cap, you boost WG and LB HPM and HPS, abit of HPS on all spells, but at a cost to HPM -> Your spells such as HT will land faster, but do less healing due to the deficit in mastery/crit.

Yeah.. read what I wrote.

Anyway, I have to disagree with your 'Haste = Burst', Mastery = sustained. Knowing the different Healing per mana numbers, and picking the right heal for the right time is everything. You might have a fine time healing with 7500 spirit and using Rejuv/WG primarily, but concider the fight where you might benefit from ~9500 spirit and being able to use some improvised RGs at bad times.

So, are your raid dying because you cant heal it fast enough, or because you don't have mana to heal it with inefficient spells? - What encounters are troubling you?

Numiro · 12/02/12, 8:03 PM

Originally Posted by Dack

Yeah.. read what I wrote.

Anyway, I have to disagree with your 'Haste = Burst', Mastery = sustained. Knowing the different Healing per mana numbers, and picking the right heal for the right time is everything. You might have a fine time healing with 7500 spirit and using Rejuv/WG primarily, but concider the fight where you might benefit from ~9500 spirit and being able to use some improvised RGs at bad times.

So, are your raid dying because you cant heal it fast enough, or because you don't have mana to heal it with inefficient spells? - What encounters are troubling you?

Yes, judging HPM is good. Saving peoples life are better. If you have a set amount of time before someone dies (assuming they need 1 healing) the odds that someone survives are higher with haste, am I correct? Well as a fact, yes I am.

Sure your hps is going to be hurt, but how many times have you died because your HPS is too low? I'd dare say you've never ever wiped in this tier from sustained damage. Every time you heal someone with anything other then lifebloom or rejuvenation you're being ineffective with your mana, depending on the other healers in your raid ofc, but more often then not are you going to be able to hot someone with a rejuvenation and then move on.

To clarify why haste benefits keeping people stable is that you don't have 12 seconds where a person needs to be kept stable, you have bursts of 1-2 seconds and then the hot is going to top him of, getting more ticks into that frame is key to survival and it's worth alot more then whatever hps you'd ever push out. Take Garalon for example, my guild is currently wiping at him due to low DPS. Right before a crush I tend to put out 4-5 rejuvenations (not really sure about the number, general feeling) just to top people of and to help healing after the crush. Yet we're having people who've died in the pools right after a crush, if my tick had been just a little bit faster that person would've survived. Mastery would've been a really weak stat right there because mastery doesn't improve the burst of the spell it just provides additional healing each time you heal.

To put numbers in this:
Boss A hits for 100k each second
Person X has 151k HP

X is going to die in 2 shots.

Your rejuvenation has two options, ticking for 50k each second, or ticking for 150k each third second.
The values are the exact same over time yes, this isn't entirely accurate but it provides easier comparsion.

Combat log might look like this:

Boss A hits for 100k
Person X is healed for 100k (50k overheal)

Boss A hits for 100k
Boss A hits for 51k (49k overkill)

Compare this to:

Boss A hits for 100k
Person X is healed for 50k

Boss A hits for 100k
Person X is healed for 50k

Boss A hits for 100k (1k hp LEFT)

Person X dies (healed for 50k then smacked for 51k with 49k overkill)

Do you see the difference? We've added an ENTIRE second to the persons life by just having the faster tick, you'll never be able to save that guy with that one slow hot because of how the hot works, adding haste to a rejuvenation is basiclly making it more usefull not reducing its healing, this entire discussion isn't going to work unless you move your focus away from hps and to the fact that we're there to keep people alive.

People are very rarely dying when you are at full mana, so why waste your mana on regrowths/healing touches/nourishes that aren't necessary? There are plenty of healing classes that can provide that slow heal that will heal enough to heal the guy to full if you can just let him cast that before the guy acctualy dies. There are also plenty of classes that have mana efficent instant casts with direct healing. I don't see a reason for us to ever regrowth unless it's a factor of the human error or a fight where you don't have enough healing without it, in which case you'll be better of with haste in most of those because of the way haste and mastery scales with our mana efficent spells differently.

There's a quote on the prot paladin guide that really changed the way I viewed things:

Spike damage is typically what kills tanks and drains healer mana.

If you think about it, how often have you run oom without using inefficent healing strategies?

I apologize for the really long post, I've tried my best to explain my thoughtprocess behind haste and this is probably the best I can do for now.

Cmotu · 12/03/12, 1:35 AM

I believe the original post needs an update for symbiosis. Also a note might be worth adding that tanks are again one of the preferred targets, due to the extra cool down they get.