[Resto] Mists of Pandaria 5.3 - Page 18

• Melthu · 12/03/12, 9:23 AM

Hi guys, just a reminder that this is a place for theorycrafting. Balance discussions should take place elsewhere, such as the official forums. Thanks.

Mehdi · 12/03/12, 10:35 AM

I started to heal in my 10m on using 6652 haste as of this week, now that I can hit it. This puts me at about 7.5k spirit after reforges. Personally, I love it and the benefits seem to be outweighing the loss of spirit.

To put it into perspective, my guild is still working on Amber Shaper Normal. On Wind Lord, we run with a hPriest(usually a rShaman) and hPally, along with myself. On Amber its the hPally and myself.

Before hitting 6642, my general play style has been to be a hybrid tank and group healer. LBs and RJ on the tank, SM/RG(cc) on cooldown/proc on the lowest health player. WG when 3+ players are low. RJ/RG in all other cases were a player is low or in cases of emergency healing.

More often than not, one of the two extremes would occur. In cases where raid damage is low, or concentrated on a single player or two, my HoTs run half their duration while the other healers top them off. In cases where raid damage is very high, on the group or a single target, the HoTs don't seem good enough - in turn, I am forced to spam RG to make up for it, which in turn drains my mana -- ex, no raid cool downs during a Rain of Blades (for example), bad explosion, etc.

After going to 6642, I finally feel my healing is starting to feel competitive. The HoTs are ticking faster, in turn, a RJ/WG are enough to circumvent many emergency RGs. My APM (actions per minute) is in turn a lot lower, but my heals are more precise, concentrated and purposeful - which in itself, makes up for the loss of spirit.

In short, hitting the 6652 seems to be well worth it as the loss in spirit is made up by higher netting LB/RJ/WG, as it reduces the need to use emergency RGs as much.

Quincunx · 12/03/12, 4:25 PM

This isn't an argument for more haste though. This is an argument that more throughput provides strong enough healing with your efficient spells that you don't need to blow mana using inefficient RJs and non-CC'd RGs. You've simply used Haste as your thoroughput stat of choice. You could easily have used different gems for INT, and reforged differently to turn that Spirit into Mastery instead. It may look like you're giving up Spirit, but in actuality what you're giving up is the Mastery you could have gotten with that itemization. Instead of a 7.5K Spirit/6.6K Haste/2K Mastery build, a few gold would get you a 7.5K Spirit/3K Haste/5.6K Mastery build.

Should you be doing Mastery instead of Haste? Hamlet explained how to compare them in post 166. He does suggest that 6.6K Haste would be a good idea if that 3.6K itemization was coming out of Spirit, but it needs to actually be coming out of Spirit for this, not simply coming out of the Mastery that you could have had instead.

Numiro · 12/03/12, 4:45 PM

Originally Posted by Quincunx

This isn't an argument for more haste though. This is an argument that more throughput provides strong enough healing with your efficient spells that you don't need to blow mana using inefficient RJs and non-CC'd RGs. You've simply used Haste as your thoroughput stat of choice. You could easily have used different gems for INT, and reforged differently to turn that Spirit into Mastery instead. It may look like you're giving up Spirit, but in actuality what you're giving up is the Mastery you could have gotten with that itemization. Instead of a 7.5K Spirit/6.6K Haste/2K Mastery build, a few gold would get you a 7.5K Spirit/3K Haste/5.6K Mastery build.

Should you be doing Mastery instead of Haste? Hamlet explained how to compare them in post 166. He does suggest that 6.6K Haste would be a good idea if that 3.6K itemization was coming out of Spirit, but it needs to actually be coming out of Spirit for this, not simply coming out of the Mastery that you could have had instead.

The logs I've seen says that haste (atleast up to cap) is better then mastery, not to mention the non measurable help that haste gives over mastery in saving lives.

• Hamlet · 12/03/12, 5:38 PM

The only thing I've really changed my mind about since post 166 (that was just alluded to http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t130799-...x_release/p12/ ) is that really when you review that napkin calc it's actually kind of hard to support going to the 6600 break.

The haste is worth 5% if you do 40% of your healing with WG/Efflo, which people have said is too high in practice, so let's say 4% at most. 3600 mastery is ~6.25%, but crit, while worse than mastery, isn't at all worthless (as we discussed recently). So turning some of that 3600 into crit doesn't dramatically reduce the value. Similarly Spirit, while I make all those arguments about not overvaluing it, is still a perfectly functional secondary stat that has value. Bottom line, none of the secondary stats are bad enough that you're likely to give up 3600 of them to add only 4% or less healing.

The the biggest exception is what Mehdi described above. If you take my low-Spirit advice to heart, and find you've shed most of your Spirit and still want more throughput, and the only way to get it is to turn Spirit into haste, then you have to turn a block of stats into haste to get to 6652 to get any benefit.

--------------------

On the topic you guys are actually talking about. Yes, in a situation where you really need to dish out healing fast, haste helps--it basically gives full value by helping both your direct casts and hots heal faster. But so does mastery (and in fact crit, although crit's unreliability is worse in this situation). And mastery's almost as good as haste here--1% for 480 as opposed to 1% for 425. And haste's output benefit comes at full cost of added mana, while mastery's benefit costs 0 extra mana.

Other than that, you just have to watch for the fallacy of constructing mental scenarios that favor haste artificially well--e.g. the tank happens to die in the tiny window between when a heal lands and when a slightly more hasted heal would have landed.

♦ Earen · 12/03/12, 6:22 PM

Originally Posted by Cmotu

I believe the original post needs an update for symbiosis. Also a note might be worth adding that tanks are again one of the preferred targets, due to the extra cool down they get.

Abilities updated.

Payday · 12/04/12, 1:49 AM

Originally Posted by Numiro

The logs I've seen says that haste (atleast up to cap) is better then mastery, not to mention the non measurable help that haste gives over mastery in saving lives.

This is mathematically impossible unless mastery uptime was not 95%+.

rmq · 12/04/12, 1:54 AM

Originally Posted by Hamlet

Bottom line, none of the secondary stats are bad enough that you're likely to give up 3600 of them to add only 4% or less healing.

I tried to reach 6652 the instant I was able to do so, and I fully support what you say - not worth it. Though now I think I've reached about 5k of pure haste (hard to remember due to constant respeccing and reforging), and if that's so, I'm going to give it a second try.

I'm concerned about the value of haste outside of breakpoints. Is the itemization value of crit that high, that it falls behind haste? I don't think so, but I don't have numbers to support it.

Payday · 12/04/12, 3:17 AM

Originally Posted by rmq

Though now I think I've reached about 5k of pure haste (hard to remember due to constant respeccing and reforging), and if that's so, I'm going to give it a second try.

That haste is better used going to mastery, and where reforging to mastery isn't possible (haste/mastery pieces) crit is still better than between-cap haste. By picking up too many pure haste pieces, you actually damage yourself. For this tier you should prioritize pure mastery pieces or when spirit is not useful, mastery/haste (reforging excess haste to crit). You should avoid pure crit and pure haste pieces if possible. 3043 haste and all other stat allocation to other secondaries is the best setup until T15 or perhaps T16.

Quincunx · 12/04/12, 3:47 AM

If you actually do have 5K haste on your gear before any reforges are done, then you probably can't get down to 3043 since reforging only allows you to play with 40% of the itemization budget. Even still I'd be dubious about converting good mastery itemization into haste to chase after the overcap stat budget. I'd want to be fairly solidly overcap first. We said earlier that roughly 3600 itemization = 6% throughput from mastery = 4% throughput from haste, so as a rough approximation I wouldn't want to look into jumping to the 2nd cap until I only had to spend 2400 points from mastery to get there. A gearset that couldn't reforge down below 4243 would qualify, or around 7.1K before reforging. Certainly this is a very rough approximation for a variety of reasons, but either way I think we're talking about a number that can't be reached in T14.

Chainfire · 12/04/12, 5:12 AM

I've been getting questions in-game (and even made the mistake myself) about haste not giving Swiftmend extra ticks. I believe it may be stemming from the sheet in the first post not having it mentioned that Swiftmend does in fact gain extra ticks in the same way that WildGrowth does. Could this be updated please?

On the topic of the second haste breakpoint: We came to much the same conclusion about it. Going for the second breakpoint simply isn't worth the loss in mastery, even assuming ridiculously high % healing from Swiftmend/WG.

In an effort to move this conversation in a different direction. Has anyone else looked into the relationship of Mastery vs Intellect with specific focus on Yellow/Orange gem sockets? A few interesting things popped up and I'd like to see someone else's take on it.

rmq · 12/04/12, 6:25 AM

Originally Posted by Payday

That haste is better used going to mastery, and where reforging to mastery isn't possible (haste/mastery pieces) crit is still better than between-cap haste. By picking up too many pure haste pieces, you actually damage yourself. For this tier you should prioritize pure mastery pieces or when spirit is not useful, mastery/haste (reforging excess haste to crit). You should avoid pure crit and pure haste pieces if possible. 3043 haste and all other stat allocation to other secondaries is the best setup until T15 or perhaps T16.

All the haste is of course reforged to mastery and crit. As for pure crit or pure haste pieces - I'm the only leather caster in our group, so I can get a pure crit piece of higher ilvl and then swap it for a mastery piece of the same ilvl when it drops.
I'm quite sure 6652 will be reachable in T15. Though for this tier you may be right. I'm playing moonkin way too much this tier (8/16 bosses) and I'm probably just confusing my owlkin gear haste with resto. And I also was not taking into account haste gems.
Anyway, I see your and Quincunx' point.

Numiro · 12/04/12, 7:09 AM

Originally Posted by Hamlet

The only thing I've really changed my mind about since post 166 (that was just alluded to http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t130799-...x_release/p12/ ) is that really when you review that napkin calc it's actually kind of hard to support going to the 6600 break.

The haste is worth 5% if you do 40% of your healing with WG/Efflo, which people have said is too high in practice, so let's say 4% at most. 3600 mastery is ~6.25%, but crit, while worse than mastery, isn't at all worthless (as we discussed recently). So turning some of that 3600 into crit doesn't dramatically reduce the value. Similarly Spirit, while I make all those arguments about not overvaluing it, is still a perfectly functional secondary stat that has value. Bottom line, none of the secondary stats are bad enough that you're likely to give up 3600 of them to add only 4% or less healing.

The the biggest exception is what Mehdi described above. If you take my low-Spirit advice to heart, and find you've shed most of your Spirit and still want more throughput, and the only way to get it is to turn Spirit into haste, then you have to turn a block of stats into haste to get to 6652 to get any benefit.

--------------------

On the topic you guys are actually talking about. Yes, in a situation where you really need to dish out healing fast, haste helps--it basically gives full value by helping both your direct casts and hots heal faster. But so does mastery (and in fact crit, although crit's unreliability is worse in this situation). And mastery's almost as good as haste here--1% for 480 as opposed to 1% for 425. And haste's output benefit comes at full cost of added mana, while mastery's benefit costs 0 extra mana.

Other than that, you just have to watch for the fallacy of constructing mental scenarios that favor haste artificially well--e.g. the tank happens to die in the tiny window between when a heal lands and when a slightly more hasted heal would have landed.

People either die because I've wasted too much mana on regrowths (my hots aren't ticking fast enough to keep someone up) or I didn't finish a cast quick enough. It seems to me that you're forgetting that haste is a better throughput stat then mastery over small periods of time. Perhaps it's just me as a 10 man raider that value the haste more then others because we don't have the same raw healing power you do in 25 man and therefore have to spend more of our mana and time on saving people.

Originally Posted by Chainfire

I've been getting questions in-game (and even made the mistake myself) about haste not giving Swiftmend extra ticks. I believe it may be stemming from the sheet in the first post not having it mentioned that Swiftmend does in fact gain extra ticks in the same way that WildGrowth does. Could this be updated please?

On the topic of the second haste breakpoint: We came to much the same conclusion about it. Going for the second breakpoint simply isn't worth the loss in mastery, even assuming ridiculously high % healing from Swiftmend/WG.

You're forgetting the fact that the haste is going to be benefical even outside of the cap, everything isn't about those big pretty numbers when the boss is dead.

• Hamlet · 12/04/12, 9:17 AM

Originally Posted by Chainfire

In an effort to move this conversation in a different direction. Has anyone else looked into the relationship of Mastery vs Intellect with specific focus on Yellow/Orange gem sockets? A few interesting things popped up and I'd like to see someone else's take on it.

Don't have anything too specific on Int vs. Mastery. They're both essentially flat % healing bonuses, so the sheet can more or less spit out which one's better at your current stats (since they both affect all heals roughly equally, spell breakdown doesn't even matter too much). If trying to eyeball stuff yourself, remember that mastery is additive with the 10% base Harmony, and Int is additive with your existing Int and spellpower. At low levels they were very close in value--higher, I'd just see if they sheet has them diverge one way or another. In your armory setup with the 4700 mastery, Int seems to pull ahead a little.

Payday · 12/04/12, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by rmq

I'm quite sure 6652 will be reachable in T15. Though for this tier you may be right.

I wasn't referring to 6652, but rather 13163, the only haste breakpoint other than 3043 worth using.